Lightning

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:34 pm

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "kschalm"

a related thing that bothers me is this: is the earth charging down, or is it constantly being recharged? if it is charging down, why is it not finished yet? wouldn't it asymptotically approach charge equilibrium with space like an exponential decay curve, and if so, wouldn't extrapolating the present voltage backwards to when we left the saturnian womb lead to ridiculously high voltage, creating an uninhabitable planet, or maybe just causing the whole thing to explode?

i googled "capacitor discharge voltage curve" and got the following from http://www.coilgun.info/theory/capacitorcharging.htm:


When you do the math for a capacitor discharge, you get an exponential decay curve: V(t) = V0 e^{-t / RC}


i'm no physicist, so i have probably grossly misunderstood the electric earth model. someone please tell me how this earth thing we live on works.
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:38 pm

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Krackonis"

a related thing that bothers me is this: is the earth charging down, or is it constantly being recharged? if it is charging down, why is it not finished yet? wouldn't it asymptotically approach charge equilibrium with space like an exponential decay curve, and if so, wouldn't extrapolating the present voltage backwards to when we left the saturnian womb lead to ridiculously high voltage, creating an uninhabitable planet, or maybe just causing the whole thing to explode?

i googled "capacitor discharge voltage curve" and got the following from http://www.coilgun.info/theory/capacitorcharging.htm:


When you do the math for a capacitor discharge, you get an exponential decay curve: V(t) = V0 e^{-t / RC}


i'm no physicist, so i have probably grossly misunderstood the electric earth model. someone please tell me how this earth thing we live on works.


Well to be honest, some say the earth is growing due to it's charge imbalance. (Thats however, for another thread)

The earth is charging down and historically you can see, it, but there are still several anomolies on the planet. The incidences fo "St Elmo's fire" for example use ot be much more prevalent in the past, even just a few hundred years ago, where as the same effect, (The Burning Bush that did not burn, the Russian Myth that souls do battle on the tops of mountains at night) was literally part of myth.

The ancients in effect, lived in a plasma which was glowing at times, as the Austrailian Aboriginals can tell you, the 'Dreamtime' was when they saw the electric fields on the ground, and talk about the 'making' of Ayers Rock.

I think that this intense charge was the reason for their ability to construct stone monoliths and with some thought, transport them. Vibrational ultrasonics were part of the construction the pyramids and other anicent structures, and it could be argued that the vibrations in the plasma in the air allowed the cutting of these massive stones. (By moving the intruments with a regular vibration)

I'm not an expert, but this avenue is by far the most interesting. We are on the cusp of explaining the mysteries of ancient construction and mythology in a holistic natural way.

As for Anomolies. The incident in Sicily and the "electric demons" coming from devices, shows the area is out of charge balance. It is not "ground", electrically, but positive.
Near Patagonia off the coast of South America, there is also a huge dip in the Ionosphere. Perhaps indicating the core of the planet (plasma core, or otherwise) is off kilter. Many spacebased craft are affected negatively in that area.

Of course, if the growing earth theory is even possible then the question of the size of the pacific spread should be answered, because its obviously HUGE, compared to the atlantic.



I hope I spark some thought Wink
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:41 pm

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "pln2bz"

a related thing that bothers me is this: is the earth charging down, or is it constantly being recharged? if it is charging down, why is it not finished yet? wouldn't it asymptotically approach charge equilibrium with space like an exponential decay curve, and if so, wouldn't extrapolating the present voltage backwards to when we left the saturnian womb lead to ridiculously high voltage, creating an uninhabitable planet, or maybe just causing the whole thing to explode?


That's a really interesting thought and honestly really disturbs me. The idea that we might eventually become charge-neutral with space would spell the end of life as we know it here. It could also support arguments that life might be more rare in the universe than we expect. I wonder what Thornhill and others have to say about this.
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:56 pm

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

kschalm wrote:wow, michael, lots of food for thought there, especially http://www.nofc.forestry.ca/fire/faq_lightning_e.php which i perused quite thoroughly and learned many things i didn't know.

first let me summarize what the standard model is saying as i understand it.

the AMS Glossary and CFS Lightning FAQ (ignoring the first two articles, which are pay-per-view) seem to be saying the same thing: the earth is an electrically closed system, the solid earth is overall a negatively charged body, and earth+atmosphere is overall neutral. there is no connection to space. electrical processes are driven by mechanical processes, specifically wind and gravity.


If they're saying the Earth is an electrically "closed" system, I beg to differ, unless my understanding of "closed" is mistaken.

(NASA Spacecraft Make New Discoveries About Northern Lights)
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/themi ... ights.html

(30 kV battery in space; sun pumps 650,000 amp current into the arctic!)
BatteryInSpace30kV.jpg
BatteryInSpace30kV.jpg (12.88 KiB) Viewed 9167 times


If the sun is acting as the central electrode in something equivalent to a plasma globe (supplying current to Earth; like filaments connecting to fingers on the glass):

PlasmaLampSun.jpg
PlasmaLampSun.jpg (8.5 KiB) Viewed 9165 times


Then it seems to me that the Earth CANNOT be a closed system. We're constantly on the receiving end of solar current. Perhaps constantly discharging as well.

(Birkeland's terella w/ input shown in glow / arc mode. Decent enough stand-in for the sun -> earth current.)
BirkelandTerellaInOut.jpg
BirkelandTerellaInOut.jpg (14.58 KiB) Viewed 9164 times


The sun is likely also on the receiving end of galactic-scale currents.

1-voyager2prov.jpg


kschalm wrote:
While I don't know if I have an answer per se, isn't an electric field generally set up by (for lack a better term) clouds of oppositely charged particles? With potential between them?


absolutely true, the question is what drives the charge separation. in the standard model, the earth is like an electric dynamo, in EU it's like an electric motor..... someone correct me if i'm wrong.

and according to the leaky-capacitor-connected-to-space model, there must be a net flow of electrons out of earth and positive ions into earth. right?

i guess i assumed that they would "go quietly": electrons go up, ions go down. but maybe the paths are not straight up and down. maybe they wind and twist and turn and stop for lunch. maybe at any given point in the atmosphere there could be electricity going in any direction, just like this river doesn't just go in a straight line from its source to the ocean:


Charge separation... Good on ya', led into another spot where EU and mainstream disagree. I think that in many ways, the EU disagrees that charge must be "forcibly separated." If plasma makes up 99+ % of the visible matter in he universe, is it possible that charges could already be separated (we know that plasma forms double layers that serve to [some say "protectively"; in similar fashion to blood palsma] insulate regions of differing temperature, composition, charge, etc. etc.), and the processes we're seeing are simply from charges attempting to (though various process) come to a more neutral state of "least interaction?"

IE, as I noted above, the mainstream model implies that space is neutral or a nearly complete vacuum (not so much as it once did, since we've found plasma everywhere we've looked). They consider Earth to be a "closed" system or a "closed" circuit. They are therefore bounded by that assumption. If Earth is "closed," they cannot consider current flow from without.

Therein lies the rub (heh; couldn't help thinking "static electricity" for a a moment there...), insofar as they must come up with ways to explain currents and such without an external source. They must also consider any "separated charges" to have been forcibly separated through some process.

Hence why they often refer to dust devils as being "charged" triboelectrically, despite having found dust devils that remain contiguous over much of their lifespan despite being free of dust! See the first post in the [Electric?] Watespouts, Landspouts and Dust Devils, oh my! thread.

Whereas, the EU model sees the Earth as a leaky capacity in electrical interaction with other bodies in space, as demonstrated above by the recent announcement of "flux ropes" (Birkeland currents). Earth is not a closed system. It receives external input, roughly following magnetic field lines. As such, we MUST at least consider the possibility that "separate charges" were emplaced in their pre-separated (ionized) state from an external source (flux tubes, Birkeland currents, ion beams/strahl in the solar wind, the solar wind itself [being only quasi-neutral, NOT completely neutral]). As such it is a distinct possibility that the "leaky capacitor" goes both ways. IE, the Earth may receive charge FROM SPACE, but it may also discharge [url=http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060322sprite.htm]TO SPACE[url].

At the least, this seems to violate the "closed system" model of the Earth, and is suggestive of a need to consider multiple-body interactions, and Earth->space / space->Earth interactions in some of the models. IE, perhaps clouds' charge is not due to some "mysterious charge-separation-of-neutral-matter" scenario, but is simply indicative that the atmosphere has received a specific charge from space, and that charge has migrated to a region of the atmosphere conducive to temporarily storing the charge, until such time as it is DIS-charged (either to "ground" or to space).

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin

Last edited by mgmirkin on Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:27 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:58 pm

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/ ... acitor.htm

I might also point out the above TPOD from some time ago. It's pointed out that Earth is a leaky capacitor. But it's also a self-repairing capacitor. A capacitor being something designed to entrap and/or store charge.

So, I guess it's an open question whether output >= input or vice versa (output <= input; or, likewise output=input)...

At least, I don't know the answer to that, off hand. Perhaps someone else has more info / resources than I do, though.

More to chew on... Maybe spur some more conversation?

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:02 am

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: St.Elmo's and wood ships. Reply with quote
OP "dahlenaz"

Krackonis wrote:Well to be honest, some say the earth is growing due to it's charge imbalance. (Thats however, for another thread)

The earth is charging down and historically you can see, it, but there are still several anomolies on the planet. The incidences fo "St Elmo's fire" for example use ot be much more prevalent in the past, even just a few hundred years ago, where as the same effect,( the Russian Myth that souls do battle on the tops of mountains at night) was literally part of myth.

The ancients in effect, lived in a plasma which was glowing at times, as the Austrailian Aboriginals can tell you, the 'Dreamtime' was when they saw the electric fields on the ground, and talk about the 'making' of Ayers Rock.


On the St. Elmo's fire subject, could it's absence be due to the usage of metal in ships rather than wood?

On Ayer's rock, when they say 'making' are they saying that it grew?

Has anyone bored at an angle under it to see if it has a column under it? From what i've read, an alternative explanation is a liquifaction mound with remaining evidence of the watetube from below. See: The hydroplate theory.

(On another not there is a large granite (?) mound in north america, Alabama I think, any chance of them being opposing features?) Just an fleeting curiousity.

I'm relatively sure about the liquifaction mound though. dz
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:05 am

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "kschalm"

pln2bz wrote:That's a really interesting thought and honestly really disturbs me. The idea that we might eventually become charge-neutral with space would spell the end of life as we know it here.


would it? how come?
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:07 am

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Faraday Cage"

i guess i assumed that they would "go quietly": electrons go up, ions go down. but maybe the paths are not straight up and down. maybe they wind and twist and turn and stop for lunch. maybe at any given point in the atmosphere there could be electricity going in any direction, just like this river doesn't just go in a straight line from its source to the ocean:

"[img]^^see%20above^^[/img]"

ah, another misunderstanding of electricity saved by an analogy with water.

so i guess i could refine my question to the following: what does earth's electric circuit look like? do we have at least a large scale picture of it?


Perhpas this is what you were getting at and perhaps I am a bit thick :) but just to clarify: When I read this the first question that came to mind was; What carved the channel that the water is flowing along? Perhaps there is an insight here to your question of "what does earth's electric curcuit/s look like?" As you also mention, "maybe they wind and twist and turn and stop for lunch" indeed! As far as I know water flows from higher ground to lower in the most direct route possible BUT is influenced by the contours of the earth already present! So in answer to your question, maybe the circuts are very plasma-like at every scale.
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:09 am

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "kschalm"

Faraday Cage wrote:Perhpas this is what you were getting at and perhaps I am a bit thick Smile but just to clarify: When I read this the first question that came to mind was; What carved the channel that the water is flowing along?


not what i was getting at, but a valid interpretation.

As far as I know water flows from higher ground to lower in the most direct route possible BUT is influenced by the contours of the earth already present!


sometimes! when water goes downhill it follows contours of the earth, which may be electrically formed. but when it crosses a plain, it somehow finds its own way.

i would not be surprised if the similarity between the complexity of flowing water and electricity goes beyond appearance. maybe there are mathematical similarities between the equations that govern them both.
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:12 am

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "biknewb"

Somewhere I remember to have read that the net current reaching Earth is positive. Negative lightning is more frequent but less strong. Positive lightning is the real thing but less frequent. Can't find the reference right now. It might be that the negative strokes are a by-product of the positive charge seeking its way to the ground.

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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:13 am

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "julian braggins"

Oxbow Lakes ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxbow_lake
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:17 am

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: slightly OT Reply with quote
OP "biknewb"

julian braggins wrote:Oxbow Lakes ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxbow_lake


Oxbow lakes are made by water and gravity. Just like geography books say. The majority of other river features seem to be electrical to me. An awesome place to "earthgoogle" for electric signatures is the middle east.
This is a picture I kept for my collection: the area around Khairabad. It shows the two main river formations. A meandering gravity river from left to right and Lichtenberg figure "rivers" in the top half. (click the picture for a full sized one or look for Khairabad in Google Earth)

khairabadsmall.jpg
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:24 am

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: slightly OT Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

biknewb wrote:
julian braggins wrote:Oxbow Lakes ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxbow_lake


Oxbow lakes are made by water and gravity. Just like geography books say. The majority of other river features seem to be electrical to me. An awesome place to "earthgoogle" for electric signatures is the middle east.
This is a picture I kept for my collection: the area around Khairabad. It shows the two main river formations. A meandering gravity river from left to right and Lichtenberg figure "rivers" in the top half. (click the picture for a full sized one or look for Khairabad in Google Earth)


Yup, methinks the Middle East took some heavy hits... I still like the Saudi deserts as places where heavy damage have been preserved.

I might add this region of Oahu, HI near Kawailoa Beach and Waimea Bay:

Google Maps
FlashEarth

While it's not as fractally filamentary as the Lichtenbergs referenced above, I can't help but notice the fact that the "fingers" terminate rather bluntly / abruptly, much as lightning pathways do.

I might also point out the "speckled" periphery. I'm still looking for more detailed shots of this region to tell if they're trees, lava splatters, or pits. If the latter, then I'd tend to wonder about their origin, so close to these blunt-tipped fingers...

Google Maps
FlashEarth

I'm starting to suspect they're trees. But it's interesting that the most "texture" is IN these "fingers." If they're trees, they're basically clustered in there, and not so much on the surrounding terrain. Granted, if they're rivers (whether they started that way or not), then it would make sense for plant life to cluster there... But, do rivers naturally create structure of similar shape to these fingers, with very blunt terminations? I don't know. I suppose Occam's Razor would say not to multiply theoretical entities past what is necessary to explain a particular feature. So, I guess the question is whether rain/weather is sufficient to create these roughly dendritic formations?

Blunt / pointy terminus

If so, how do we explain such features on Mars where there is NO water / weathering to explain them? Yet very similar features emerge...

Valles Marineris

I tend to think that like formations should have like causes (though, wishful thinking does not evidence make). I also tend to think that the "canyon came first," so to speak (in some cases, not all). On Earth, I think the canyon(s) were superseded by river systems that continued the erosional regime, and made for a handy place to channel waters for life to thrive around (plants, fungi and things further up the food chain).

IE, it seems to me that the Mars image I linked to above is the prototype, and the Hawaii images I linked to previously are what came later on Earth, where we've got liquid water and plenty of life to populate the prototype.

Of course that's all guesswork, albeit educated guesswork.

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin

Last edited by mgmirkin on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:26 am

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: slightly OT Reply with quote
OP "biknewb"

mgmirkin wrote:
I might add this region of Oahu, HI near Kawailoa Beach and Waimea Bay:

<snip>
I might also point out the "speckled" periphery. I'm still looking for more detailed shots of this region to tell if they're trees, lava splatters, or pits. If the latter, then I'd tend to wonder about their origin, so close to these blunt-tipped fingers...


This certainly is an interesting area! From what I can make out, these green speckles are vegetation, but what is underneath is hard to tell. Nice place for some vacation/investigation in situ. We just need some sponsors 8-)

And concerning your guesswork, I think I have a similar education...

gerards regards
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Re: Recovered: Positive Lightning

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:28 am

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: slightly OT Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

biknewb wrote:
mgmirkin wrote:
I might add this region of Oahu, HI near Kawailoa Beach and Waimea Bay:

<snip>
I might also point out the "speckled" periphery. I'm still looking for more detailed shots of this region to tell if they're trees, lava splatters, or pits. If the latter, then I'd tend to wonder about their origin, so close to these blunt-tipped fingers...


This certainly is an interesting area! From what I can make out, these green speckles are vegetation, but what is underneath is hard to tell. Nice place for some vacation/investigation in situ. We just need some sponsors 8-)

And concerning your guesswork, I think I have a similar education...

gerards regards



I'm actually tempted to go visit the area if/when I visit my parents in Hawaii... And they do live on Oahu, granted the other corner of the island (southerly)... So, who knows? 8o]

Don't have anything scheduled just yet, so it might be a while.

But, I'm pretty sure the speckling is vegetation. Interesting way it's clustered tho'...

~Michael Gmirkin
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