Comet Erosion?

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Comet Erosion?

Unread postby perpetual motion » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:03 pm

https://phys.org/news/2016-09-descent-i ... .html#nRlv

I myself would not trust much of the mainstream information from this site.

And when did comets start to have erosion on the surface? Erosion on a comet, come on, they should
be able to imagine far more than that. Also, according to my eye sight, this particular one is
made up of lava, so much for their icy dirt balls.
Then also, how did a comet become lava?
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby comingfrom » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:42 pm

Thank you, pm.
I think you mean basalt, or igneous rock, which is lava cooled down.
Lava is molten rock.

It surprises me to see great boulders lying around on the surface.
I expected a layer of dust.
How much gravity does a comet have?

Erosion on comets would be caused electrically, the evacuated material forming the tail, or tails.
I imagine the process erodes the looser material around the boulders while they are still in the escarpment, freeing the boulders to gently fall down to the plain.

Paul
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby webolife » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:55 pm

The erosive agent [from terrestrial analogs] that is evident in the comet photos is basically gravitational mass movement, forming the talus at the base of the sharp precipices. There does seem to be a coating of dust over everything, so the comet's electrical environment has done its work.
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby LaSuisse1 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:55 am

webolife wrote:The erosive agent [from terrestrial analogs] that is evident in the comet photos is basically gravitational mass movement, forming the talus at the base of the sharp precipices. There does seem to be a coating of dust over everything, so the comet's electrical environment has done its work.


What 'electrical' environment would this be? Please point me to the results from various instruments that would detect such things. It sounds like you are making things up here.
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby seasmith » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:52 am

LaSuisse1, There were three ion detectors on the Rosetta probe, if i recall correctly, and results are still be analyzed and dribbled (slowly) out.

eg:
Abstract
Context. On 20 January 2015 the Rosetta spacecraft was at a heliocentric distance of 2.5 AU, accompanying comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko on its journey toward the Sun. The Ion Composition Analyser (RPC-ICA), other instruments of the Rosetta Plasma Consortium, and the ROSINA instrument made observations relevant to the generation of plasma waves in the cometary environment.

http://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/abs/20 ... 01-16.html

On approach:
http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2015/pdf/2312.pdf

Study this and then google for testing results:
http://sci.esa.int/rosetta/35061-instru ... ongid=1647
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby webolife » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:32 am

LaSuisse1 wrote:
webolife wrote:The erosive agent [from terrestrial analogs] that is evident in the comet photos is basically gravitational mass movement, forming the talus at the base of the sharp precipices. There does seem to be a coating of dust over everything, so the comet's electrical environment has done its work.


What 'electrical' environment would this be? Please point me to the results from various instruments that would detect such things. It sounds like you are making things up here.


I agree :D
Sorry. I had read the same abstract that Seasmith linked above, his second link:
http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2015/pdf/2312.pdf

So the local ionizaton of the comet is interacting with the solar "atmosphere" [ie. solar wind]...
My thinking was that this would be a likely cause of the light dusting evident in the surface photos.
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby GaryN » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:42 pm

Image
NavCam image taken on 10 July 2015 at 156.58 km far from the 67P nucleus. The spatial scale of the image is 15.81 m/pixel. The white arrow shows the outburst caused by the Aswan cliff collapse (in shadow here). Credit: ESA/Rosetta/NavCam – CC BY-SA IGO 3.0

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-03-rosetta-c ... e.html#jCp
So they think this is dust kicked off by the collapse of the Aswan cliff, and this is reflected sunlight? Nobody seems to know what the NavCam actually 'sees', but I suspect a Lyman Alpha emission of hydrogen, in which case this is probably produced in an electron beam, the beam also being responsible for the collapse, and if the NAC was seeing IR, then the white area identified as ice may have been a slightly warmer area heated by the beam.
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby LaSuisse1 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:05 pm

I'm sorry, but the above comments make no scientific sense whatsoever. It is well known that the solar wind is not reaching the comet nucleus as the outgassing increases. It cannot cause any erosion. The only 'plasma' that is found for many months close to the comet is of cometary origin. That is, from the sublimated ices, due to mainly photoionization. It is vastly outnumbered by cometary neutrals, such as H2O and CO2. In Oktober 2015 Rosetta travelled to 1500km in the sunward direction. It did not encounter the solar wind. It was missing from the sensors for around 10 months. So solar wind interaction cannot be called upon to explain anything at this time. And it certainly cannot explain the dust, which has been seen to be due to deposition from elsewhere on the comet due to outgassing. And the outburst of in the image certainly cannot be from lyman-alpha, it is sunlight from dust. The instruments would see such a thing over a period two years. The navcam only sees in optical light, and that image is highly stretched. And I have no idea what is meant by 'an electron beam'! Where did it come from, and how did it evade the instruments?
As for the ice patch; it is ice. It is spectroscopically resolved as ice. Not during this investigation, but in previous papers looking at the debris at the feet of cliffs. This is not a guess, or an assumption. It is ice.
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby comingfrom » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:07 pm

Thank you LaSuisse1.
So it is photon bombardment, that caused the cliff to collapse, and causes the outgassing, and ionization.
And maybe that also explains the formation and angles of the dust rays.
~Paul
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby LaSuisse1 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:41 pm

comingfrom wrote:Thank you LaSuisse1.
So it is photon bombardment, that caused the cliff to collapse, and causes the outgassing, and ionization.
And maybe that also explains the formation and angles of the dust rays.
~Paul


I have precisely no idea what you mean by photon bombardment! The cliff collapses due to thermal stress. Contraction and expansion over and over. Due to heat. The temperature swings are large, and immediate. It happens on Earth as well, but you do not get the huge swings in temperature as at a comet. When it collapses a load of dust is released, and ice may be exposed. Rosetta was in the way of one of these events in February 2016. First they detect the H2O, and then they detect the dust. This is normal, as the gas expands at ~600 m/s, and the dust at a much slower rate. So we know that the dust is dust, and not Lyman-a (although I think you meant the Balmer series as that is visible to our eyes. However, it requires neutral H, because the transition that causes it is due to the de-excitation of the electron from n>3 to n=2).
And we know that the H2O is H2O, as it is detected by MIRO in the sub-mm range, at ~557 GHz.

There is also no chance that the bright spots you mention are 'hot'. One of the links I left in the other thread shows temperature maps of where ice was detected. It is colder. Not surprisingly.
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby flyingcloud » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:37 am

LaSuisse1 wrote:The cliff collapses due to thermal stress. Contraction and expansion over and over. Due to heat. The temperature swings are large, and immediate.
...

There is also no chance that the bright spots you mention are 'hot'. One of the links I left in the other thread shows temperature maps of where ice was detected. It is colder. Not surprisingly.


Thanks for the Link, I love a scavenger hunt.

And NO CHANCE they're hot, you see it's DUE TO HEAT. I have precisely no idea what that means.

We have bright spots in moon craters identified as discharge activity. Your turn to hunt.


edited to add link..

like leading a horse to water (ice)

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-nasa-sola ... -moon.html

Powerful solar storms can charge up the soil in frigid, permanently shadowed regions near the lunar poles, and may possibly produce "sparks" that could vaporize and melt the soil, perhaps as much as meteoroid impacts, according to NASA-funded research. This alteration may become evident when analyzing future samples from these regions that could hold the key to understanding the history of the moon and solar system.

The moon has almost no atmosphere, so its surface is exposed to the harsh space environment. Impacts from small meteoroids constantly churn or "garden" the top layer of the dust and rock, called regolith, on the moon. "About 10 percent of this gardened layer has been melted or vaporized by meteoroid impacts," said Andrew Jordan of the University of New Hampshire, Durham. "We found that in the moon's permanently shadowed regions, sparks from solar storms could melt or vaporize a similar percentage."
Last edited by flyingcloud on Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby D_Archer » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:50 am

flyingcloud wrote:
LaSuisse1 wrote:The cliff collapses due to thermal stress. Contraction and expansion over and over. Due to heat. The temperature swings are large, and immediate.l


Heat is photons.

Regards,
Daniel
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby webolife » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:51 am

I'm not a "photon bombardment" kind of guy myself, but I do understand that heat is "absorbed" or "interrupted" light; and that ionization is also a light action; moreover in my model gravitation and light are manifestations of the same unified pressure field. All that for other threads, however.

What is clear from LaSuisse1's Rosetta links is that there are transient cycles of formation and sublimation of detectable water on the surface of the comet. What is questionable is the origin of this water, eg. it is an assumption that water is found in large amounts below the surface dusts. If, as in our moon's polar regions, there is a presence of hydroxyls interacting with solar H+ ions to form transient H2O, it is possible and perhaps even likely that something similar is occurring on cometary surfaces. Between 0.1% and 4% transient water among the materials found at the [occasionally] "bright" spots in the Rosetta studies does not make for a very convincing "dirty snowball" claim imo.
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby comingfrom » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:19 pm

Thank you, LaSuisse1.

I have precisely no idea what you mean by photon bombardment! The cliff collapses due to thermal stress.
Heat is infrared photons, so thermal stress is photon bombardment, to me.

There is also no chance that the bright spots you mention are 'hot'. One of the links I left in the other thread shows temperature maps of where ice was detected. It is colder. Not surprisingly.
If that is an entry point for the photons, the infrared gets sucked out of the region, which explains colder.

Like the poles on Earth.

~Paul
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Re: Comet Erosion?

Unread postby webolife » Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:57 pm

IR gets "sucked out"???? Yikes!
Maybe what you're trying to say is there is higher albedo or greater reflection, therefore less light absorption [IR "is" detected absorption]. Or maybe you weren't, but should have...
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