An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby webolife » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:43 am

moses wrote:Certain areas seem to have missed some episodes of laminated deposition, and consequently many creatures might have survived in such areas.

What areas are you referring to...the Canadian Shield? The abyss? Is there evidence of creatures amassing in these places? Except for volcanic regions, pretty much the rest of the world is covered with "laminated depositions"...
moses wrote:Also many creatures might survive such a deposition that would initially be quite wet.

"Many" -- what are you thinking here? Most "depositions" were vast muddy flows that don't warrant much survival, which is a euphemism for "demonstrate destruction and extinction". Or are you thinking of the Ark? In the case of which, how does that square with the previous quote?
moses wrote:Initially we would have the flat Earth (no mountains or oceans), and a 4 prong Birkeland Current went through and around Earth. Thus forming the Atlantic Ocean in particular.
moses wrote:The oceans have edges that very much suggest EDM. The Mid Atlantic Ridge beautifully fits the idea of a current passing upwards both raising the ridge and the volcanoes.

"Beautifully fits" -- because the Atlantic coasts are aligned with each other and with the mid-ocean ridge? You're thinking that a thousands-of-miles wide swath of electricity/plasma swept across and around the earth maintaining a fairly precise intensity and orientation, and width of sweep [sometime in the history of civilization?] and this accounts for the boundary ranges and oceans, yet no such phenomenon has ever been seen by modern humans in nature or a lab? "The edges" -- are you talking about the physical features of coastlines being [more simply] explainable by the action of an electric arc, than by runoff, weather and waves?
moses wrote:This theory deserves attention.

Of course, this is the EU, and I'm as intrigued by the possible effects of planetary EDM as the next guy. But there is a lot of explaining to do here!
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby moses » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:18 pm

webo,
we have both read about the geological column and there are layers missing in places.

The ark ?? No I am happy with Noah being 2350BC. In laminated deposition we don't need much survival, and lots of species disappeared. What we may need is lots of time for the survivors to breed up to large numbers.

<"Beautifully fits" -- because the Atlantic coasts are aligned with each other and with the mid-ocean ridge? You're thinking that a thousands-of-miles wide swath of electricity/plasma swept across and around the earth maintaining a fairly precise intensity and orientation, and width of sweep [sometime in the history of civilization?] and this accounts for the boundary ranges and oceans, yet no such phenomenon has ever been seen by modern humans in nature or a lab? "The edges" -- are you talking about the physical features of coastlines being [more simply] explainable by the action of an electric arc, than by runoff, weather and waves? webo>

We have all seen those craters on many planets and moons that have the raised edges and also a raised bit in the middle of the crater. So a different intensity current goes through that raised middle bit. Stock standard. Now if that middle current moves, what happens ?

The "S" shape of the Atlantic Ocean is characteristic of a Birkeland Current, as are the 4 prongs. And there is the channelling on other planets that look to be formed by EDM.

I actually think that periodically the Atlantic Ocean forming current reforms. I have been considering the possibilities a lot just lately. Timing such events is a pain. But I do feel that there was enough time after the last of this Atlantic Ocean forming current for a world-wide civilization to form. This was before the ice ages. Then a catastrophe putting Earth in a very elliptical orbit, etc.

The skill and pain is in seriously considering a whole range of theories. Even obviously wild theories tend to teach one something.
Cheers,
Mo
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby Robertus Maximus » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:25 pm

webolife wrote:RM,
1. All of the studies prior to 1970-ish are based on comparatively very little data, so a strong case cannot be made either way from that information.

This is indeed correct Plate Tectonics was based on very little data, yet it steamrollered all opposition. Data published since the late 1960’s does not support continental drift or Plate Tectonics this includes a wealth of data from various oceanic drilling expeditions. Recently published data question India’s excursion from the imaginary Gondwanaland to its current location (https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/india-was-by-no-means-as-isolated-as-we.html#mDFfpg8ic5IKVbae.97). Cartoons and CGI may reinforce the Plate Tectonic paradigm but they do not match reality.
webolife wrote:RM,
I'm skeptical of the hollow earth hypothesis, as it explains far less about the rotation and revolution of the earth known from Newtonian mechanics, let alone having verification in seismology. Electrically driven surface gravitational variations should be much less "stable" than what is observed. On the other hand if electricity and gravitation are of the same [unified] origin, then we have a larger dilemma: the current state of affairs in the local universe is quite stable, so how can the plasma "machine" account for that? Clumsy wording... ie. how can a process which is by its
fundamental description highly variable account for the observed "stability" of the Earth and solar system?

Lamprecht’s model of a hollow Earth explicitly accounts for seismic data. Such a model is simpler than the standard crusty-mushy-liquid-solid interpretation which is still not settled. (See: https://malagabay.wordpress.com/2015/07/28/liesegang-cavities-2-the-ringing-moon/ and https://malagabay.wordpress.com/2015/07/30/liesegang-cavities-3-the-ringing-wet-earth/ for consideration). Measurements of the gravitational constant on the Earth’s surface are far from ‘constant’ let alone stable. Evidence of an increase in G would support what I have suggested based on Wal Thornhill’s proposal (https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24180-strength-of-gravity-shifts-and-this-time-its-serious/). Big Science resorts to ‘dark forces’ as usual but the inability to pin down a value of G coupled with the Earth’s increasing orbital radius and lengthening day point to, in this model, an ongoing electrical adjustment. Again, Wal Thornhill has accounted for the electrical ‘stability’ of the solar system which left to gravitation alone is chaotic (gravitation as understood by mainstream science).

In my opinion most of Earth’s adjustment to its environment occurred during a cataclysmic period one involving other solar system bodies and certainly the capture of the Moon. The ‘stability’ we see today is due to a more leisurely discharge rather than a catastrophic one.
seasmith wrote:What do you all think of the recurring thesis that most of the catastrophic disruption had occurred over the eastern hemisphere (Atlantic and Indian ocean basins generally), while the Pacific basin has remained relatively pacific?
The now fairly intact Pacific 'plate' surrounded by its "ring of fire", and the mid-ocean split right down the middle of the Atlantic basin could support this theory.
Fracture zones ~orthogonal to the Atlantic and Red Sea rifts, like the Himalayas and the Wallace Line (Sunda Shelf) are said to result from the spreading eastern hemisphere crustal ~slabs rotating up against the more stable Pacific crust.

After a lot of heaving and buckling, Earth's rotational forces have since then reestablished the basic spherical shape (like a glassblower spinning a round bowl).
If i'm remembering the main bits correctly.

webolife wrote:I kinda go along with that... Another idea that has popped up a time or two: an impact in the Pacific basin somewhere creating the mantle hotspot that generates the Hawaiian Islands, also conducting a shock wave around or through the globe that "collided" and started the fracture in the center of the continental mass there... the rift that became the Mid-Atlantic Rift. Not my favorite theory, but it has some merits.
:?:

As I pointed out the Earth displays a hemispheric dichotomy, I suggest this dichotomy is a feature from the Earth’s formation and has not arisen by any other process, such lowland features are found on Mars, Mercury and the Moon bodies where Plate Tectonics has not occurred.
moses wrote:<(However, how would this differ in the case of an EDM gouged ocean?)

What does the EDM model account for that less exotic more evidencial models do not? webo>


Hello webo,
Initially we would have the flat Earth (no mountains or oceans), and a 4 prong Birkeland Current went through and around Earth. Thus forming the Atlantic Ocean in particular.

Creatures might well have lived where the Atlantic Ocean is now. So some creatures might have lived on both sides of this area, as well. Explaining what happened as each EDM event cut out material from where the ocean is now, is complex. Certain areas seem to have missed some episodes of laminated deposition, and consequently many creatures might have survived in such areas. Also many creatures might survive such a deposition that would initially be quite wet.

The oceans have edges that very much suggest EDM. The Mid Atlantic Ridge beautifully fits the idea of a current passing upwards both raising the ridge and producing the volcanoes. This theory deserves attention.

Cheers,
Mo

I have suggested that Earth’s present continental distribution is a relic of a former hemispheric continent, the ‘lowland’ being the location of a hemispheric ocean. Being at equilibrium with its former environment Earth was geologically quiet. A ‘recent’ cataclysm has altered the pre-existing hemispheric arrangement. Large areas of the former continental landmass subsided, given what we know form superdeep drilling projects as the subsidence occurred large amounts of saline water were expelled from the upper crust. As I consider that the Atlantic and Indian Oceans formed in this manner then the mid-ocean ridges (MOR) found in these oceans may well have been initiated during a planetary scale discharge, perhaps the area resembled the Great Rift Valley of Africa and was susceptible to subsidence, all that was needed was an abrupt end to aeons of stability.

Hydrothermal Vents (HV) associated with MOR display abundant quantities of methane and ammonia, in my opinion these gases originate deep within the Earth- could they have been trapped in the cavity during the process that formed Earth itself? Did Earth’s nitrogen atmosphere originate from within?

Today, along with methane and ammonia issuing from HV we find water too, as Earth is losing material from its upper atmosphere as part of an electrical circuit we can consider MOR and associated HV as ‘charge channels’ from which material deep within the Earth ultimately participates in the global discharge.
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby webolife » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:10 pm

RM,
What would you say is the best evidence that detracts from continental drift? I find the opposite to be the case.
Likewise, do you feel the average addition of a human hair width per year is a significant Earth radius change?
What discharges are you referring to? Lightning? Auroras?
Gravitation studies measure radially aligned density gradients... how does your explanation elucidate that?
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby Robertus Maximus » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:43 pm

webolife wrote:RM,
What would you say is the best evidence that detracts from continental drift? I find the opposite to be the case.
Likewise, do you feel the average addition of a human hair width per year is a significant Earth radius change?
What discharges are you referring to? Lightning? Auroras?
Gravitation studies measure radially aligned density gradients... how does your explanation elucidate that?


Unfortunately there is no ‘smoking gun’ evidence that I could present rather an accumulation of evidence over the past 50 years puts the Plate Tectonic paradigm on shaky ground. Like the Big Bang paradigm Plate Tectonics has become dogma.

If I were to single out one problem area it would be our new knowledge of the ocean basins. Deep drilling has revealed continental rocks in the ocean basins, layering has also been found which offers the possibility that the ‘basaltic basement’ is in fact a flood basalt. Trilobite fossils have also been found plus a dinosaur fossil from a depth of 2256 metres. When portrayed in cartoons seafloor magnetic anomaly evidence looks impressive the reality is very different. The anomalies themselves are slight differences in magnetic intensity from an average value, a negative anomaly is assumed to be caused by reversed rocks in the oceanic crust. It was initially assumed that the source rocks (reversed polarity) were shallow but deep sea drilling has proved inconclusive and the source of the magnetic anomalies is still a mystery. Of course all this rests on the dynamo theory to generate Earth’s magnetic field which is itself beset with problems. Plus we now have magnetic anomalies on Mars- no seafloor spreading there.

The width of a human hair compared to the Earth’s radius is insignificant. If you are alluding to expansion hypotheses then where does the additional material come from?

The discharge involves the entire Earth. I consider it possible that deep earthquakes- up to 700km deep- are caused by migrating fluids/ gases e.g. saline water, hydrocarbons, ammonia, helium- through mantle pores. These materials originate from a plasma state at the centre of the Earth. Closer to the surface the same upwelling produces a highly conductive layer assisting the localised formation of magma. Breakdown in this layer results in shallow earthquakes. Further localisation of the discharge takes the form of volcanic eruptions. Both earthquake and volcanic activity are accompanied by various types of atmospheric phenomena as the discharge progresses through the atmosphere. Usually the process is steady but rapid changes in the internal conductive layer or local interplanetary space- perhaps due to a coronal mass ejection- result in sudden geologic activity.

Up until this point I have not mentioned Hydrothermal Vents at Mid Oceanic Ridges or Mud Volcanoes but I consider that both of these features have a roll in the global discharge.

Wal Thornhill has addressed the issue of gravity by suggesting that under electrical forces radial dipoles form, the weak radial force being gravity. It is no different here.
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby webolife » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:08 pm

OK, good answers, but you leave me a bit muddled by your combining various meanings of the word "discharge".
You seems to be broadly brushing discharge as a movement of any kind of plasma from one place to another...is that a good characterization?
I intentionally used "continental drift" -- are you saying that the magnetic anomaly evidence at ridges is the main controversy of continental drift? "Subduction" challenges offered by the "expansionists" also? What of transverse faults found extensively along the rift zones? How does your EDM swath account for those?
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby Robertus Maximus » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:23 pm

webolife wrote:OK, good answers, but you leave me a bit muddled by your combining various meanings of the word "discharge".
You seems to be broadly brushing discharge as a movement of any kind of plasma from one place to another...is that a good characterization?
I intentionally used "continental drift" -- are you saying that the magnetic anomaly evidence at ridges is the main controversy of continental drift? "Subduction" challenges offered by the "expansionists" also? What of transverse faults found extensively along the rift zones? How does your EDM swath account for those?

In a recent thunderbolts presentation ‘The Path Forward is Clear’ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ08nS32KrI) Ben Davidson demonstrated how the appearance of a discharge can change depending on the nature of the environment. In the presentation the only factor which varied in the laboratory experiment was the environment in the test chamber.

Outside of a test chamber is it not to be expected that the discharge will change its appearance as it encounters different media? Electrons flowing through the crust will produce different phenomena compared to flows through the atmosphere nevertheless they take part in the same discharge.

Seafloor magnetic anomalies played an important role in the morphing of continental drift into Plate Tectonics. Prior to the ‘barcode’ idea of seafloor spreading magnetic anomalies were used to track former locations of the geomagnetic poles ‘polar wandering’ as it was known. The notion that the geomagnetic poles were at one time located at low latitudes is not considered anymore- the continents move not the magnetic poles, according to Plate Tectonic proponents.

Subduction does not exist except in cartoons. Africa and Antarctica are surrounded by spreading centres no subduction zones in sight. Oceanic trenches associated with subduction zones contain little or no sediment fill that would be expected to have been scraped off the two converging plates; a typical subduction zone would be expected to swallow 13,000km of oceanic plate over 150 million years or so, vast quantities of expected sediment are not observed.

Rather than being subduction zones trenches appear to be graben, many trenches are normal faults any sediment fill is often horizontally layered and undisturbed- evidence of vertical not plate tectonics.

Expansion tectonic hypotheses simply ignore subduction zones or at least recognise that they are areas of subsidence otherwise the hypotheses will not work.

Transform faults pose more problems for Plate Tectonics, not only are the plate boundaries spreading but so are the spreading centres along faults ninety degrees to the spreading axis- the simple cartoon of plate movement is in reality very messy.

Transform faults are essentially fracture zones various geologists and geomorphologists have commented as such. Fracture zones arose as the ocean basins formed, downwarping would cause tension cracks to form as crustal subsidence occurred. As I have mentioned before the former crust in the regions of the Atlantic and Indian Oceans may well have been susceptible to vertical movements all that was required was a discharge to initiate subsidence. In my opinion limestone and dolomite may well have formed by water erosion of former areas of carbonatite deposits in the pre-existing crustal areas- then distributed globally.
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:19 pm

What is the (supposed) mechanism or cause of the plates pushing against each other? Put another way, why is the Earth's spin not forcing them apart due to centrifugal force? Sorry if these are daft questions.
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby webolife » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:28 pm

GC,
I think the centrifugal piece could be more relevant than most suppose. What if:
... the supercontinent was originally centered at a primordial equator...
... its split was initiated by an impact/discharge event centered off what could have been at that time the south coast of Africa [now east coast Madagascar region] -- it could have spun any direction I suppose...
... centrifugal effects caused the moving plates into a rapid spreading phase...
... "tipping up" the earth like a disturbed top, into its present wobbly polar attitude...
... this stabilizing [due to centrifugal effects] repositioning of the axis of rotation brought the crust into its current slower drift mode over the several month [in my timing scenarios] period of more rapid separation...
... at the same time offsetting the axis into the long-period wobble it now is observed to have...
... this could help explain much of the magnetic pole shift data found in continental strata...
Unless you are of the "expanding earth" predilection, if the crust is spreading here, it must be compressing there.
All the other suppositions of continental drift might fit with this scenario.

RM,
As I understand it the magnetic striping observed in the late 1960s actually cemented the seafloor spreading [and continental drift] paradigm at the time. Shortly followed by the correlation of seismic, volcanic, and tectonic data, seafloor spreading and direct survey [later GPS] measurements that confirmed the systemic crust zone interactions which go by the name of "plate tectonics". This paradigm comprehensively explains the data better than any other geologic theory, which puts a huge ownness of responsibility for proof on an alternate theorist's shoulders.

The transverse faulting [orthogonal to the rifts] is not entirely well mapped, but these are generally considered lateral faults [modifying to thrust faults due to the spherical curvature], not extensional faults as you suggested.

Personally I do not find the subduction aspect of Plate Tectonics to be satisfying, except [as you said] in cartoons. I favor trench creation as a naturally isostatic counterpart to boundary ranges and island arcs with which they are aligned, and agree with you [and the expanding earth-ers] on that one facet.

I was taking college geology in the early '70s and the new theory was of course all the rage, but at the time I must say that at least at my university the appropriate questions were being asked, and I was somewhat astounded at the claim of subduction at the time... taught about it for a few years as a part of the standard public school curriculum, but also taught the kids to consider alternative views based on evidence, not to [ever] accept a scientific theory as a "fact".
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby Robertus Maximus » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:43 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:What is the (supposed) mechanism or cause of the plates pushing against each other? Put another way, why is the Earth's spin not forcing them apart due to centrifugal force? Sorry if these are daft questions.

Grey Cloud,

Two mechanisms are currently invoked to explain plate movement Ridge-Push and Slab-Pull both of these processes were initially believed to be caused by convection currents in the mantle. As ‘new’ plastic crust emerges at Mid Ocean Ridges (MOR) it solidifies and pushes the pre-existing oceanic plate away from the MOR. As ‘old’ and now cold dense oceanic plate reaches a continent or another approaching plate it warps and sinks into the mantle, as it does each prior section ‘drags’ the next section down into the mantle.

Despite the cartoons, this mechanism seems impossible to prove. Both of these forces occur locally both have to generate huge forces and transmit that force for thousands of miles through the whole plate on a spherical Earth. When we look at the shapes of the alleged spreading centres and subduction zones it is incredible that this process is taken seriously.
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby Robertus Maximus » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:53 pm

webolife wrote:RM,
As I understand it the magnetic striping observed in the late 1960s actually cemented the seafloor spreading [and continental drift] paradigm at the time. Shortly followed by the correlation of seismic, volcanic, and tectonic data, seafloor spreading and direct survey [later GPS] measurements that confirmed the systemic crust zone interactions which go by the name of "plate tectonics". This paradigm comprehensively explains the data better than any other geologic theory, which puts a huge ownness of responsibility for proof on an alternate theorist's shoulders.

The transverse faulting [orthogonal to the rifts] is not entirely well mapped, but these are generally considered lateral faults [modifying to thrust faults due to the spherical curvature], not extensional faults as you suggested.

Personally I do not find the subduction aspect of Plate Tectonics to be satisfying, except [as you said] in cartoons. I favor trench creation as a naturally isostatic counterpart to boundary ranges and island arcs with which they are aligned, and agree with you [and the expanding earth-ers] on that one facet.

I was taking college geology in the early '70s and the new theory was of course all the rage, but at the time I must say that at least at my university the appropriate questions were being asked, and I was somewhat astounded at the claim of subduction at the time... taught about it for a few years as a part of the standard public school curriculum, but also taught the kids to consider alternative views based on evidence, not to [ever] accept a scientific theory as a "fact".

Space Geodesy measurements are currently used by both camps as evidence for both Plate and Expansion tectonics. GPS, VLBI etc. are measuring something but is it plate movement or Earth expansion? It could be actually neither and that’s just the problem it cannot be used as definitive evidence one way or the other. This is how mobilist theories insulate themselves from criticism it makes challenges to their dominance almost impossible. Belief in Plate Tectonics is now so well entrenched that even if it is completely wrong it will not be rejected by the consensus view because, according to Kuhn, in science ‘error is better than confusion.’

Regarding faulting, agree to disagree?

Subduction- agreed.
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby webolife » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:24 am

Let's not be too agreeable just yet...I still have lots to learn! :)
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby Robertus Maximus » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:37 am

Yet more evidence of continental crust found in the ocean basins- applying Occam’s razor which is more plausible- complex Plate Tectonic scenarios or simple subsidence?
http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14086
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:18 am

Webolife and Robertus Maximus,
Thanks for the responses.
I'm struggling to grasp how pressure from below can move the plates laterally (vis a vis sea-floor spreading). Would not at least some of this pressure/energy go straight up and be detectable in some way?
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Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics

Unread postby webolife » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:19 am

Robertus Maximus wrote:Yet more evidence of continental crust found in the ocean basins- applying Occam’s razor which is more plausible- complex Plate Tectonic scenarios or simple subsidence?
http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14086

Reread that article, RM. It is about the finding of continental crust [specifically zircons] underlying lavas not on the seafloor but rather on the island of Mauritius; further that these formations are identifiable with Madagascar 700 km to the west; and that they show a link between Africa and India that confirms the two landmasses were once joined... drift, not subsidence.

GC, not sure what you're asking here... if mantle convection [or some other shifting mantle mechanism] is responsible for seafloor spreading/continental drift then:
1. the standard model plumes the mantle at ridge/rift zones... are these mid-ocean ridge zones examples of your vertical energy?
2. the leading edges of the continents "bulldoze" as they encounter resistance [eg. from the Pacific crustal plate]... the the resulting boundary mountain ranges examples of your vertical energy?
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