'Welease Wosetta!'

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby GaryN » Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:22 am

In the range of heliocentric distances from 3.59 to 2.74 AU, daytime surface temperatures are overall comprised
in the range between 180 and 220 K...


Looking into how they measure surface temperatures, they make assumptions about the suns light and heat at the comets distance from the Sun, but do not actually measure that value, with a pyrheliometer for example. They use spectral IR measurements and Kirchhoff's law of thermal radiation, Wien's displacement law, and what appears to me to be some fancy footwork, to determine surface temperatures. I haven't studied this in detail, maybe someone here has a clearer understanding of the science involved?
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby dodeca » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:12 pm

Them guys at esa knows it all along; NO ICE. They knew it from the beginning. But they will tell the otherside this little by little.

Imagine they tell everybody: Hey guys no ice we have to start all over again. The otherside won't accept that and no more funds for ESA.

So this is how they do it, ESA are smart people.
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby seasmith » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:07 pm

COMET SURFACE CHANGES BEFORE ROSETTA’S EYES


http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2015/09/18 ... ttas-eyes/
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby viscount aero » Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:27 am

seasmith wrote:
COMET SURFACE CHANGES BEFORE ROSETTA’S EYES


http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2015/09/18 ... ttas-eyes/


They can't get past the ice issue even when there is no evidence of ice:

“These spectacular changes are proceeding extremely rapidly, with the rims of the features expanding by a few tens of centimetres per hour. This highlights the complexity of the physical processes involved,” adds Olivier.

The sublimation of volatile species is clearly an important factor, as colour images of this region reveal the signature of exposed ice on some of the rims of the newly-formed surface features. The rapid rate of expansion is unexpected, however: models of sunlight-driven sublimation would predict erosion rates of just a few centimetres per hour, and thus the scientists believe that additional mechanisms are required to explain the observations.

A simple possibility is that the surface material is very weak, allowing for more rapid erosion, but it is also possible that the crystallisation of amorphous ice or the destabilisation of so-called ‘clathrates’ (a lattice of one kind of molecule containing other molecules) could liberate energy and thus drive the expansion of the features at faster speeds."
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby seasmith » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:26 pm

~
Methane Seep Biloxi Dome GoM:

Methane seep.png
Methane seep.png (47.95 KiB) Viewed 2557 times

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories201 ... lorer.html



Rosetta image of soft material flow:

Image
http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2015/09/18 ... ttas-eyes/


Water/ice not required, only a transition of pressure / temperature...
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby BohemianExile » Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:46 am

It looks like there are bright spots near where this activity on the surface is taking place. I am not an expert by any means but when I saw the bright spots on Ceres I immediately thought that it must be something that the EU people have been talking about. Now with these images of the Imhotep region it is clear that the same process is going on. On the ESA blog they are pointing to areas where new features were seen to have formed and that is exactly where there are bright spots. Maybe we don't have a long enough period of observation on Ceres to determine if changes have occurred where the bright spots are but that is certainly the case on 67/P. This is really an amazing mission. I am grateful to the Thunderbolts community for enlightening me so that I can see these images with an open mind and not fall into the icy hype. The Ceres people keep insisting on salts but all that needs to be done is to connect these images of changes in the surface features on 67/P that have bright spots with the bright spots on Ceres. I am pretty confident that we are witnessing the holy grail of EU planetary science.

Thanks guys!
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby FS3 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:32 am

I've tried to get into a conversation on ESA, coming up with some facts - but it wasn't even published . This chuzpah will be regarded as a personal attack on FS3 and on all tax payers of the EU:

ImageESA_comment 190915
(Click here to see bigger screenshot...)

...It seems that the only "public interest" of ESA lies through their funding with tax money.

But if those - who are forced to pay for those boozos - want to discuss some of their publicly funded works, they are blocked.

Hey, ESA is deliberately misleading the public and are wasting taxes in trying to catch a red elephant under the table - that isn't even there.

"Emperor's New Clothes" anyone?

:evil:
FS3


viscount aero wrote:
seasmith wrote:
COMET SURFACE CHANGES BEFORE ROSETTA’S EYES


http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2015/09/18 ... ttas-eyes/


They can't get past the ice issue even when there is no evidence of ice:

“These spectacular changes are proceeding extremely rapidly, with the rims of the features expanding by a few tens of centimetres per hour. This highlights the complexity of the physical processes involved,” adds Olivier.

The sublimation of volatile species is clearly an important factor, as colour images of this region reveal the signature of exposed ice on some of the rims of the newly-formed surface features. The rapid rate of expansion is unexpected, however: models of sunlight-driven sublimation would predict erosion rates of just a few centimetres per hour, and thus the scientists believe that additional mechanisms are required to explain the observations.

A simple possibility is that the surface material is very weak, allowing for more rapid erosion, but it is also possible that the crystallisation of amorphous ice or the destabilisation of so-called ‘clathrates’ (a lattice of one kind of molecule containing other molecules) could liberate energy and thus drive the expansion of the features at faster speeds."
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby viscount aero » Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:56 am

I re-read this part as it is very reaching, vague, and almost without meaning:

"A simple possibility is that the surface material is very weak, allowing for more rapid erosion, but it is also possible that the crystallisation of amorphous ice or the destabilisation of so-called ‘clathrates’ (a lattice of one kind of molecule containing other molecules) could liberate energy and thus drive the expansion of the features at faster speeds."

They propose the process occurs via "crystallisation of amorphous ice" via "destabilisation of ‘clathrates’ that "could liberate energy"---what does that mean? What is the causal agency for this vague idea?

"...and thus drive the expansion of the features at faster speeds..."---what? Their explanation is a non-conclusion and explains nothing.
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby querious » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:19 pm

viscount aero wrote:I re-read this part as it is very reaching, vague, and almost without meaning:

"A simple possibility is that the surface material is very weak, allowing for more rapid erosion, but it is also possible that the crystallisation of amorphous ice or the destabilisation of so-called ‘clathrates’ (a lattice of one kind of molecule containing other molecules) could liberate energy and thus drive the expansion of the features at faster speeds."

They propose the process occurs via "crystallisation of amorphous ice" via "destabilisation of ‘clathrates’ that "could liberate energy"---what does that mean? What is the causal agency for this vague idea?

"...and thus drive the expansion of the features at faster speeds..."---what? Their explanation is a non-conclusion and explains nothing.


From WIKIPEDIA...

Evidence of amorphous ice in comets is found in the high levels of activity observed in long-period, Centaur, and Jupiter Family comets at heliocentric distances beyond ~6 AU.[27] These objects are too cold for the sublimation of water ice, which drives comet activity closer to the sun, to have much of an effect. Thermodynamic models show that the surface temperatures of those comets are near the amorphous/crystalline ice transition temperature of ~130 K, supporting this as a likely source of the activity.[28] The runaway crystallization of amorphous ice can produce the energy needed to power outbursts such as those observed for Centaur Comet 29P/Schwassmann-Wachmann 1.
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby viscount aero » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:43 pm

querious wrote:
viscount aero wrote:I re-read this part as it is very reaching, vague, and almost without meaning:

"A simple possibility is that the surface material is very weak, allowing for more rapid erosion, but it is also possible that the crystallisation of amorphous ice or the destabilisation of so-called ‘clathrates’ (a lattice of one kind of molecule containing other molecules) could liberate energy and thus drive the expansion of the features at faster speeds."

They propose the process occurs via "crystallisation of amorphous ice" via "destabilisation of ‘clathrates’ that "could liberate energy"---what does that mean? What is the causal agency for this vague idea?

"...and thus drive the expansion of the features at faster speeds..."---what? Their explanation is a non-conclusion and explains nothing.


From WIKIPEDIA...

Evidence of amorphous ice in comets is found in the high levels of activity observed in long-period, Centaur, and Jupiter Family comets at heliocentric distances beyond ~6 AU.[27] These objects are too cold for the sublimation of water ice, which drives comet activity closer to the sun, to have much of an effect. Thermodynamic models show that the surface temperatures of those comets are near the amorphous/crystalline ice transition temperature of ~130 K, supporting this as a likely source of the activity.[28] The runaway crystallization of amorphous ice can produce the energy needed to power outbursts such as those observed for Centaur Comet 29P/Schwassmann-Wachmann 1.


Thank you for that.
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby D_Archer » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:37 am

Anybody want to explain how the 'dust' action is electrical in nature?

Regards,
Daniel

ps. I would do it myself but i like to hear someone else explain it :D
pss. As EU pointed out on comet Tempel I where an active rim was seen eroding the surface. see img

Image
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Throwing Down the Gauntlet to ESA...

Unread postby FS3 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:21 am

As it seems that tax-funded ESA isn't willing to publish wellfunded ideas on the Rosetta Blog and deliberately trying to "censor" alternative suggestions trying to solve their obvious dilemma the FS3 has thrown down the gauntlet to those ESA-mignons asking for further clarification (in German):

"CLAUDIA" AND THE DECLINE OF SCIENCE ...

ESA-Blog author Claudia Mignone who states from herself being "sceptical" ...

...The pitfall here is that, while you handle the data, you need to make assumptions on some of the very same properties that you later want to constrain using those data.

Or do you really? Maybe you don't need to make as many assumptions as you think you do. You can go the "model-independent" way. Of course, you can hardly be fully model-independent, because any fitting procedure you will apply to your data means that you are technically choosing a model. So our approach was to adopt a non-physically motivated model, just a purely mathematical one, and use it to reconstruct one of the main functions that underlies all cosmological observations: the Expansion Rate – which basically recounts the expansion history of the Universe. After you've determined this function in a reasonably model-independent way, then you can go and compare it to your favourite (physically motivated) model and draw whatever conclusion you may like.

As a chronic skeptical, I clearly liked the idea...


...was notified and so we are eager looking for some possible statements of clarification.

:mrgreen:

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Receding Margins at Imhotep on67P-C/G

Unread postby dahlenaz » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:38 pm

This link to the ESA blog has aready been shared, but i'd like it followed as i bring to your attention
an experiment which appears to have given results similar to features ESA shows here and
in one of their other images, where margins are receding in a circular manner.

This is the explanation for the video:
Electrical transport of fine particulates is demonstrated here as
very-fine dust is lofted from the margins and deposited
at surfaces of the current path (washer, nut and bolt),
an electromagnetically attractive area..
Artificial destabilization of material -via arc-driven vibration-
facilitates a simulation reduced forces upon material that
low gravity and low atmospheric pressures might present on
celestial bodies, like comet 67p-c/g,,
so that the most electrically-transportable material can be
moved in a short period of observation.


This experiment might be applicable to the recent 67P-C/G mystery,
in consideration of the possibility that electrical interactions -with the
surface- either follow a pathway or exert some forces which
the dust yields to or is manipulated...

Image
Larger Image

Another experiment also demonstrated electrical-transport of dust but it took the material
to a location at a distant spot outside of the circles and deposited it in a feature that
can also be seen in the ESA images mentioned above. The interaction here was
between two surface areas of significantly different electrical potential,
bridged without contact by a disturbing electrical field above the surface.
Look for the wedge-shaped feature in the ESA images,, adjacent to the two
developing circular spots and between a surface covered less by dust...

Image
Larger Image

So two experiments -which put active electrical forces at a specific point on
a dust covered surface, applying only the involvement of dark-mode forces, (either in tendril form
or in symmetrical coronal form)
- could shed some light on these mysterious comet features..

In the first experiment i did have an arc-driven vibration acting upon the surface and its covering,
but that arc was isolated from the demonstration surface and the vibration probably offset the
forces present here on earth,, which wouldn't apply to the comet's material.

So here we have receding margins around a current-path,,, kind of amazing since all i had in
mind was attemting to find out if an arc can cause a membrane to vibrate and i had no examples
of a setup to reference.. This was inpiration,,, all the way... TYLJ,,,,, d..z

...
Last edited by dahlenaz on Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby Frantic » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:21 pm

D_Archer wrote:Anybody want to explain how the 'dust' action is electrical in nature?

Regards,
Daniel

ps. I would do it myself but i like to hear someone else explain it :D
pss. As EU pointed out on comet Tempel I where an active rim was seen eroding the surface. see img

Image


Well Myself, I would agree with FS3 that a double layer is stripping the comet of electronegative elements, specifically oxygen. Which combines with hydrogen in the coma, and frees ions from the surface.
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Receding margins via electrical transport

Unread postby dahlenaz » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:31 pm

This next image -from a variation of the previous experiment- shows
electric-wind-caused mirgation of material from margins. Here i brought the
arc-discharge probe above the surface while the lowere arc was still active.

Image
Larger Image

You will see in the video (dahlenaz07 on youtube) that re-deposition of material
to nearby areas occurrs rather fast but that is less important than migration of margins
by invisible dark-mode electrical exchange.

The white surface was not a conductor and this experiment was done at high humidity..

d..z

...
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