'Welease Wosetta!'

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby viscount aero » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:18 pm

This is the big idea and essential thing for every EU citizen scientist to be aware of:

"Negative oxygen ions from cathodic etching of rock minerals in the nucleus will combine with protons from the solar wind to form water in the coma and tail."
User avatar
viscount aero
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:23 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby viscount aero » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:11 am

Check out the addendum:
The Electric Comet—"Water" from Deep Impact

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1f99ReNJVw
User avatar
viscount aero
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:23 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby GaryN » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:31 am

Quick question. Looking at Wikipedia, I see the following figures for density:

Comet 67P
102±9 kg/m³

Silica
2648 kg/m3

Water
999.9720 kg/m3

Ice is about 90% the weight of water. So what the heck is 67P made of?

A link from the wiki page:
67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko mass determination based on a new method for modeling non-gravitiational
forces and accelerations.

The method:
We developed a physical and dynamical model taking into account the non-gravitational forces due to the water outgassing from the nucleus.
We determined the fraction of active area, the rotational axis orientation, the mass and the
density of the nucleus. This parameters are important for the success of the mission


http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/acm2012/pdf/6282.pdf
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2659
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby viscount aero » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:43 am

"We developed a physical and dynamical model taking into account the non-gravitational forces due to the water outgassing from the nucleus..."

There is no such thing as water outgassing from the nucleus.
User avatar
viscount aero
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:23 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby 4realScience » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:31 pm

@GaryN,

Your question goes to the heart of a basic EU idea: mass is affected by electric effect. Electric effect will dominate material composition. The mass and density calculations already made by mainstream astronomers will/and are already shown to be wrong. We can already see the comet is a rock, not a rubble pile, and is smoothly melted together from its previous near approaches to the Sun. No rubble pile could survive even one such. Any Sun-grazing rubble pile would become melted and fused.

If only the Rosetta lander could sample the material of the rock! From what has go on before on this thread it seems likely to me that the ice-tethers will fail, bounce off the surface, and jerk the lander up away from it.

What I want to see, and right now!, is the charge and voltage of the nucleus. Never mind the electron temperature because it will be nil since the comet has been so far away from the Sun so long. Let us see the real-time output of the Langmuir probe's signals as Rosetta approaches, and has been approaching.



"God Dammit, God Dammit, oh, God Dammit!!" Richard Nixon
4realScience
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:20 pm

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby 4realScience » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:44 pm

Brushing up on Langmuir probe theory I see a problem: these are only able to see plasma parameters relative to the local background. They have been designed, accidentally, to operate only on Earth.

Prediction:
All Rosetta will see is the gradient as it approaches. Likely very small values for all the parameters.


These Langmuir probes all assume there is an Earth ground reference in effect to compute their parameters. This will fail in interplanetary space. They would not be able to detect the fact that a body, like the Rosetta comet, is at a vastly different charge than the Earth or the Sun, for instance. They will not be able to compute an absolute voltage or charge relative to molecular neutral, where no ions are present.

To oversimplify, if we zipped right up to Rosetta, from Earth at lightspeed, say, we would have no warning of arc discharge danger from a Langmuir probe. We need a better probe. One that could show absolute voltage and charge.

How about this? What we want is to detect the ionization level of a thing, like Rosetta 67P, so shine high intensity laser beams into it at various wavelengths and look at the resulting spectra. If 67P is highly ionized, many or most electrons missing, we would see that in that expected transitions do not happen. And if it is not ionized at all, and would be at a low absolute voltage, then we would see a full spectrum of transitions radiation.
4realScience
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:20 pm

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby viscount aero » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:57 pm

4realScience wrote:Brushing up on Langmuir probe theory I see a problem: these are only able to see plasma parameters relative to the local background. They have been designed, accidentally, to operate only on Earth.

Prediction:
All Rosetta will see is the gradient as it approaches. Likely very small values for all the parameters.


These Langmuir probes all assume there is an Earth ground reference in effect to compute their parameters. This will fail in interplanetary space. They would not be able to detect the fact that a body, like the Rosetta comet, is at a vastly different charge than the Earth or the Sun, for instance. They will not be able to compute an absolute voltage or charge relative to molecular neutral, where no ions are present.

To oversimplify, if we zipped right up to Rosetta, from Earth at lightspeed, say, we would have no warning of arc discharge danger from a Langmuir probe. We need a better probe. One that could show absolute voltage and charge.

How about this? What we want is to detect the ionization level of a thing, like Rosetta 67P, so shine high intensity laser beams into it at various wavelengths and look at the resulting spectra. If 67P is highly ionized, many or most electrons missing, we would see that in that expected transitions do not happen. And if it is not ionized at all, and would be at a low absolute voltage, then we would see a full spectrum of transitions radiation.



I'm not versed in Langmuir probe parlance but provided what you have pointed out is true, ie, the limited plasma detection capabilities of Rosetta (as it was not designed under an EU premise of data collection) it will in some ways be scientifically inert of a probe. I'm expecting, moreover, other science data to arise that proves to be of the typical "baffling" variety, data that contradicts the expectations of their instrumentation. Of course their hardware was designed with a bias towards a mainstream/mechanical "icy liquid snowball venting" characteristic that is, of course, pure fantasy akin to leprechaun hunting. They even went so confidently far as to fashion "ice screws" as tethers to the leprechaun pink unicorn surface.

You are very astute to point out the big problem endemic to the Langmuir design.
User avatar
viscount aero
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:23 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby GaryN » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:55 pm

Seems like they are going to stick with a fluffy snowball description. In answer to my question about the density and if it must be hollow:

There are quite a range of numbers out there for the density of 67P/C-G based on previous studies, i.e. before Rosetta arrived, but all are less than the density of water.

Definitive mean density values will be available soon, once Rosetta has measured the mass and overall volume of the comet.

But the general thinking is that comet's are rather loosely-packed, porous structures, as the self-gravity is not strong enough to make the compact. So, not hollow, but porous.


The images sure make it look like a solid, rocky object, with a violent history, so will be very interesting to get the offical figures.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2659
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby viscount aero » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:31 pm

GaryN wrote:Seems like they are going to stick with a fluffy snowball description.


Unbelievable! :lol:
User avatar
viscount aero
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:23 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby Bomb20 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:35 am

Comet 67P
102±9 kg/m³


Wow, then it is either balsa wood or a special kind of cheese from Switzerland! :lol:
User avatar
Bomb20
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:16 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby electrodogg1 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:20 am

That's ridiculous. Everyone knows that if it is made of cheese, it has to be a moon and cannot be a comet. :lol:
Best,

David
electrodogg1
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:20 am
Location: La Quinta, California

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby Metryq » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:29 pm

About Nothing
by
Isaac Asimov

All of Earth waited for the small black hole to bring it to its end. It had been discovered by Professor Jerome Heironymus at the Lunar telescope in 2125 and it was clearly going to make an approach close enough for total tidal destruction.

All of Earth made its wills and wept on each other's shoulders, saying, "Good-bye, good-bye, good-bye." Husbands said good-bye to their wives, brothers said good-by to their sisters, parents said good-bye to their children, owners said good-by to their pets, and lovers whispered good-bye to each other.

But as the black hole approached, Hieronymus noted there was no gravitational effect. He studied it more closely and announced, with a chuckle, that it was not a black hole after all.

"It's nothing," he said. "Just an ordinary asteroid someone has painted black."

He was killed by an infuriated mob, but not for that. He was killed only after he publicly announced that he would write a great an moving play about the whole episode.

He said, "I shall call it 'Much Adieu About Nothing.'"

All humanity applauded his death.
User avatar
Metryq
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:31 am

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby viscount aero » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:20 pm

:lol:
User avatar
viscount aero
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:23 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby GaryN » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:48 am

A NAC image available today:
http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/files/2014 ... 4x1024.jpg
Taken on 7 August 2014, from a distance of 104 kilometres through the orange filter of the OSIRIS narrow-angle camera. They are separated by 17 minutes and the exposure time is 138 milliseconds.


Filters for the NAC and WAC
http://www.planetary.org/explore/resour ... siris.html

With the orange filter they may be looking for pyroxene reflectance spectra.
SYSTEMATICS OF VESTOID REFLECTANCE SPECTRA BY 600-AND 650-nm BANDS.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2007/pdf/1224.pdf

By using different filters, and examining the spectra, they can further pin down the most likely materials by comparing the expected spectral lines in each band with those observed, for each element.
Good to see they are giving the exposure time too. 1/10+ sec may seem like a short exposure time, but given the sensitivity of the instruments, they are likely still looking at some very weak, and 'thin' emissions, not naked eye visible IMO.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2659
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: 'Welease Wosetta!'

Unread postby viscount aero » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:57 am

GaryN wrote:A NAC image available today:
http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/files/2014 ... 4x1024.jpg
Taken on 7 August 2014, from a distance of 104 kilometres through the orange filter of the OSIRIS narrow-angle camera. They are separated by 17 minutes and the exposure time is 138 milliseconds.


Filters for the NAC and WAC
http://www.planetary.org/explore/resour ... siris.html

With the orange filter they may be looking for pyroxene reflectance spectra.
SYSTEMATICS OF VESTOID REFLECTANCE SPECTRA BY 600-AND 650-nm BANDS.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2007/pdf/1224.pdf

By using different filters, and examining the spectra, they can further pin down the most likely materials by comparing the expected spectral lines in each band with those observed, for each element.
Good to see they are giving the exposure time too. 1/10+ sec may seem like a short exposure time, but given the sensitivity of the instruments, they are likely still looking at some very weak, and 'thin' emissions, not naked eye visible IMO.


It is a bizarre object. It looks like it could be made of modeling clay. But then there is a highly hardened looking part to it, almost crystalline looking.
User avatar
viscount aero
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:23 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

PreviousNext

Return to Electric Universe - Planetary Science

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests