Electric Venus

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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StalkingGoogle
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by StalkingGoogle » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:17 pm

By examining Mr. Collinson’s data, scientists were able to determine how a HFA might form at Venus. “These plasma particles are trapped in place,” said Mr. Sibeck. “They make a big puddle that gets bigger and bigger, sending out its own shock waves. Everything downstream from that bubble is going to be different than what’s upstream,” he added.
Absolutely riotous. This description doesn't bear any resemblance to any of the behaviours of plasmas with which I'm familiar. It boggles the mind that this passes for physics in popular culture.

hertz
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by hertz » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:42 pm

ah excellent, a plasma physicist in the house...this part here is really confusing...any insights?
An important channel of shock dissipation is particle acceleration by a combination of first-order Fermi acceleration and shock drift acceleration known as diffusive shock acceleration (DSA). This mechanism is responsible for most of the energetic particle populations in the heliosphere, the majority of galactic cosmic rays, and presumably many of the other energetic particle populations in the cosmos...The major uncertainty in applying the mechanism to specific shocks and their associated energetic particles is the rate at which upstream thermal particles are injected into the process...The injection rate is dependent on the detailed electromagnetic structure of the shock, which determines the rate at which incoming particles are reflected or scattered back upstream, and it appears to be very sensitive to the local magnetic obliquity. For quasi-perpendicular shocks, thermal particles are not able to scatter sufficiently to initiate diffusive shock acceleration before the magnetic field sweeps them through the shock. Determining the injection mechanism is nontrivial. Even after years of investigations of the Earth’s bow shock based on International Sun-Earth Explorer (ISEE) and Cluster data, the origin of the field-aligned beams that initiate the ion-acceleration process is unknown.
seems to me somebody around here should at least be able to speculate on the origin of said beams?

Sparky
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by Sparky » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:59 pm

-it appears to be very sensitive to the local magnetic obliquity. For quasi-perpendicular shocks, thermal particles are not able to scatter sufficiently to initiate diffusive shock acceleration before the magnetic field sweeps them through the shock.
:shock:
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

hertz
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by hertz » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:11 pm

In English:
scientists painted a possible picture of how an HFA forms at Venus. The moving solar wind with its attendant magnetic fields harbors discontinuities, areas where the magnetic fields change direction, sharply and abruptly. Sometimes these discontinuities align with the flow of the solar wind, so they remain in contact with what's called the bow shock -- the place where the supersonic solar wind slows down abruptly and diverts around the planet. If such a discontinuity travels slowly across the bow shock it allows time to trap particles, collecting pools of 10 million degree plasma that can expand to be as big as Earth.
what's really cool is that in another paper (don't have the link handy) they noted how the resultant "explosion" (discharge, arc, etc) likely happens here on earth occasionally, e.g. carrington event...hmmm

that first bit was a plasma astrophysics description of the underlying cause on p28 of this most excellent report:

http://www.pppl.gov/conferences/2010/WO ... bFINAL.pdf

seasmith
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by seasmith » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:06 pm

The moving solar wind with its attendant magnetic fields harbors discontinuities, areas where the magnetic fields change direction, sharply and abruptly. Sometimes these discontinuities align with the flow of the solar wind, so they remain in contact with what's called the bow shock -- the place where the supersonic solar wind slows down abruptly and diverts around the planet.
Sun-generated plasmoid ~ meets traveling ionospheric plasma globe ?


Or just a big bug smooshed on the windshield ??

hertz
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by hertz » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:27 am

reading today's tpod about pre-incan statuary i'm guessing the former, which led to the latter...splat...we're lucky though...our magnetosphere makes it much less likely we'll experience the "big one" than say if we lived on venus

Anaconda
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by Anaconda » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:27 pm

Anytime you read of a so-called "shock" written by a conventional astronomer and/or astrophysicist, where bodies of plasma collide, with different properties, say energy levels, think electric Double Layer.

In this case:
-it appears to be very sensitive to the local magnetic obliquity. For quasi-perpendicular shocks, thermal particles are not able to scatter sufficiently to initiate diffusive shock acceleration before the magnetic field sweeps them through the shock.
Also, this description sounds suspiciously like an electric Double Layer:
magnetic fields harbors discontinuities, areas where the magnetic fields change direction, sharply and abruptly.
Yes, the solar wind can harbor electric Double Layers:

Now, understand that whenever conventional astronomers and/or astrophysicists refer to so-called "magnetic reconnection", they are actually referring to an electric Double Layer.

Here is a ACE News Report from March 9, 2005:

Magnetic Disconnection From the Sun
ACE News wrote:The SWEPAM and MAG experiments on ACE have now obtained the first direct evidence for such merging and disconnection from the Sun.


http://www.srl.caltech.edu/ACE/ACENews/ACENews88.html

Check out the link and the schematic in the body of the report. Notice the location where it is claimed there is a "Reconnection Site". A location before the solar wind impacts any planet (at least as far as I can tell).

I suggest the location on the schematic where it is labeled "Reconnection Site" is actually an electric Double Layer.

Does the schematic location labeled "Reconnection Site" look like the following written description?
The moving solar wind with its attendant magnetic fields harbors discontinuities, areas where the magnetic fields change direction, sharply and abruptly.
So, getting back to the post, it would seem that when electrons are "cooled" (are reduced in their energy level), the electrons get caught up in the Sun's weak radial electric field (per Electric Universe Theory) and then travel back toward the Sun in a 'drift current'.
Solar winds travel at extremely high speeds, some reach as high as 900 km/s. In order to “temporarily reverse solar winds,” HFAs have to release huge amounts of energy.
Does that seem like the electrons were "cooled" or lost energy?
Hot flow anomalies, also known as HFAs, are responsible for the temporary blow back of solar wind, said David Sibeck, a scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center and co-author of the study, according to NASA.
I suggest this "blow back" is the initial concentration of low energy electrons (ions) before they are diffused and become undetectable by today's satellite space probes' technology.

(I need to add parenthetically, that some electrons & ions may actually be accelerated back toward the Sun by the electric Double Layer.)

hertz, be somewhat disappointed with your plasma physicist because he is using the so-called "shock" terminology, which ignores the best available evidence that so-called "shocks" where bodies of plasma collide are actually electric Double Layers and it is the electric field within the Double Layer that accelerates the electrons & ions, not a collision as such.

So, StalkingGoogle wanted a TPOD analysis & interpretation.

Here is my analysis & interpretation:

At a point where bodies of plasma collide which have different properties (in this case, energy levels) an electric Double Layer forms, and while many particles (electrons & ions) are accelerated, some are not accelerated, in fact, they are deflected and/or decelerated (lose energy) and when electrons (possibly ions, too) lose energy to a certain level, the particles get caught in the Sun's weak radial electric field (per Electric Universe Theory) and, thus, are drawn or flow back toward the Sun in the 'drift current'.

(again, I need to add parenthetically, that some electrons & ions may actually be accelerated back toward the Sun by the electric Double Layer.)

Now, some, perhaps most, of these electrons (ions) can regain energy from the out-streaming solar wind particles and then, once again, change direction, and flow out away from the Sun with the rest of the Solar wind which originates from the Sun. Or once these low energy electrons (ions) begin their drift back toward the Sun in its radial electric field, they diffuse to a point that they become undetectable by current space probe technology. And, in this diffuse (and currently undetectable) state the electrons (ions) flow back toward the Sun, in the 'drift current', and then as they approach the Sun again concentrate along with low energy electrons which originated from the Heliospheric virtual cathode to the Sun which acts as an "anode" per Electric Star hypothesis.

mharratsc
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by mharratsc » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:37 am

If we conjecture that the Sun is receiving more energy from the galaxy during this recent solar cycle (with all the attendant energetic effects we've been experiencing weather-wise on the Sun and on Earth), might we also conjecture that some of the electrons returning to the Sun might be from secondary currents off the main flow that is energizing our Sun at it's polar regions?

That might go a ways in explaining how these 'cooled' electrons can have the energy necessary to "reverse the solar wind"... o.O
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington

glyn_collinson
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by glyn_collinson » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:50 pm

Hi Everyone. So, I'm Glyn, the NASA postdoc who published the HFA paper. It seems there is some confusion as to what "turns back" the solar wind.

So, the planet is an immovable object in the supersonic solar wind, and so you get a shock forming around it - just like Concorde or on a jet fighter has a supersonic shock around its nose. The HFA grows out of the bow shock and is basically an extension of it. So, the HFA is now this immovable object, and the solar wind becomes deflected by it. So, the term "turns back" isn't quite correct, but definitely forgivable, since they've got the right general sort of idea.

If you want to post any other questions here about my paper, I'll do my best to answer them.

~Glyn

mharratsc
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by mharratsc » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:07 pm

Ohhh... so you're talking about a deformation of the anticipated 'bow shock' model, induced by electromagnetic effects, rather?

Image

Thanks for stopping by and clarifying that, Glyn.
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington

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nick c
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by nick c » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:24 pm

Hot Flow Anomalies at Venus
JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH

Goldminer
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by Goldminer » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:33 pm

mharratsc wrote:Ohhh... so you're talking about a deformation of the anticipated 'bow shock' model, induced by electromagnetic effects, rather?

Image

Thanks for stopping by and clarifying that, Glyn.

Something about "a picture is worth a thousand feet in the mouf?"
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

StalkingGoogle
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by StalkingGoogle » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:15 pm

glyn_collinson wrote:So, the planet is an immovable object
Can you possibly be serious about this explanation?

glyn_collinson
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by glyn_collinson » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:59 am

Ohhh... so you're talking about a deformation of the anticipated 'bow shock' model, induced by electromagnetic effects, rather?
Yeah, that's about the size of it. I think that the original press release did a pretty good job of explaining what's going on...

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sunea ... sions.html

Here's the sketch that was made for the press release which gives you a rough schematic of the system...

Image

Please do post here if you have any more questions.

~Glyn

hertz
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Re: "hot flow anomalies"

Unread post by hertz » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:08 am

"Hot flow anomalies average one a day near Earth," says Goddard scientist Glyn Collinson and the first author on the new paper. "They've been seen at Saturn, they may have been seen at Mars, and now we're seeing them at Venus. But at Venus, since there's no protective magnetic field, the explosion happens right above the surface of the planet."
Couple of questions. I read that you borrowed some data from the Venus Express that showed the anomaly (wonder if that's what we should call them given their frequency?) happened on Mar 22, 2008. Were you able to pinpoint or even guess roughly where this happened on the surface and would surface scarring even be visible or lie buried under the atmosphere?

Is it accurate to think of these as "eddies" that get left behind, so to speak, take on a life of their own, build up an instability and then dissipate via violence? Do they always dissipate via violence?

Given the Earth's magnetosphere, would it ever be possible for an HFA to build up to catastrophic proportions here?

Besides finding evidence for the first ever HFA on Venus, was there anything else about this project that you found particularly interesting or exciting?

What, if any, is the followon to this new information, or what new projects might it spark?

Thanks for taking the time to be here and congrats on your find!

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