Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...?

[Lloyd]

HOW ABOUT DEVELOPING E.U. BASED GEOLOGY?
* Webolife said:

Lloyd, I'm hoping this doesn't sound too spoil-sporty, but I put together an extensive powerpoint presentation a couple years ago including images intended to present the kind of info you are looking for. Hundreds of hours yielded little satisfactory data... the fact is, this type of information just isn't known!

* Actually, I didn't really expect geologists to have data on what fossils are found in strata that do not appear anywhere on the surface.
* So, in my illustration above, the fossils would be unknown for the most part. However, wherever strata are exposed to view, and mountains and the Grand Canyon etc probably expose the greatest numbers of strata, there is probably data somewhere that shows what fossils appear in each stratum in those places.
* Do you know where to find such data? I'll try to look at Allyn's and everyone's links shortly to see if they already have the answer.
* Also, I'm sure there's probably fairly detailed data on Geological Cross Sections throughout much of the world somewhere. Do you know where to get such data, or do you have it from your coursework and could we access it?
* There's quite a bit of data on the 12 mile deep hole in Russia. Do you know if oil drilling engineers generally have kept data on the strata encountered while drilling? If so, that may be how many geological cross sections where mapped.
* I believe that a fairly thorough compilation of such data could tell us approximately how the strata were laid down and what the continents looked like before and after each stratum was laid down.
* The largest mammal that supposedly lived in the age of dinosaurs was said lately to have been I think about 20 inches long.
* My hope is that we can get better clues that suggest whether dinosaurs lived in the age of humans and other mammals. It seems that there's already a number of tantalizing clues, but I suspect that it would not be hard to increase such data considerably.

[Lloyd]

* Here's an example of the kind of data that I think would be good to have to start with. It's from http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/section.html .


* This list below shows which strata are continuous at each location and which are different.
BC: Bryce Canyon; MV: Mesa Verde Natl Pk; CL: Canyonlands Natl Pk; Zn: Zion Natl Pk; GC: Grand Canyon.

.......................................... BC ... Wasatch Fm
Mesaverde Fm ........................ BC ... Kaiparowits Fm
Mesaverde Fm ........................ BC ... Wahweap Ss
Mancos Shale ................... MV - BC ... Straight Cliffs Ss
Mancos Shale ................... MV - BC ... Tropic Shale
Dakota Ss ....................... MV - BC <same
Morrison Fm ............... CL - MV - BC ... Winsor Fm
Summerville Fm .......... CL - MV - BC ... Winsor Fm
Curtis Fm .................. CL - MV - BC <same
Entrada Ss ................. CL - MV - BC <same
Carmel Fm ........... Zn - CL ------- BC <same
Navajo Ss ............ Zn - CL ------- BC <same
Wingate Ss ........... Zn - CL
Chinle Fm ............ Zn - CL
Moenkopi Fm ...GC - Zn - CL
Kaibab Ls ...... GC - Zn - CL ... Cutler Fm
Toroweap Fm .. GC ...... CL ... Rico Fm
Coconino Ss .... GC ...... CL ... Hermosa Fm
Hermit Shale ... GC
Supai Fm ....... GC
Redwall Ls ..... GC
Temple Butte Ls. GC
Muay Fm ........ GC
Brt Angel Shale. GC
Tapeats Ss ..... GC
Vishnu Schist .. GC

[Lloyd]

* Here's a fossil record for the Grand Canyon. Note that brachiopods, trilobites and stromatolites occur in all 3 sedimentary rock types: limestone, sandstone and shale. Limestone supposedly comes from sea shells and corals, sandstone from sand and shale from mud or soil. Why would they be found in all 3 types of rock?
http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/ge ... _layer.htm
*Paleozoic Strata
o Kaibab Limestone ====== Fossils: brachiopods, coral, mollusks, sea lilies, worms and fish teeth
o Toroweap limestone ==== Fossils: brachiopods, coral, mollusks, sea lilies, worms and fish teeth
o Coconino Sandstone ==== Fossils: numerous invertebrate tracks and fossilized burrows
o Hermit Shale ========== Fossils: ferns, conifers and other plants, and some fossilized tracks of reptiles and amphibians
o Supai shale ============ Fossils: numerous amphibians, reptiles and terrestial plants in the east, marine fossils to the west
o Redwall Limestone ===== Fossils: marine: brachiopods, clams, snails, corals, fish and trilobites
o Temple Butte Limestone = Fossils: eastern region: bony plates from freshwater fish; western region: numerous marine fossils
o Tonto Group -
+ Muav Limestone ======= Fossils: some trilobites and brachiopods
+ Bright Angel Shale ===== Fossils: marine animals such as trilobites and brachiopods
+ Tapeats Sandstone ==== Fossils: trilobites, brachiopods, and trilobite trails
*Great Unconformity [Unconformity means lack of parallelism between rock strata in sequential contact]
*Late Pre-Cambrian Rocks
o Chuar Group -
+ Sixtymile sandstone
+ Kwagunt shale ======== Fossils: stromatolites
+ Galeros Ss,Ls,Shale= == Fossils: stromatolites
o Nankoweap sandstone
o Unkar Group -
+ Cardenas Lavas
+ Dox Sandstone ======= Fossils: stromatolites and algae
+ Shinumo Quartzite sandstone
+ Hakatai Shale
+ Bass limestone ====== Fossils: stromatolites
* Pre-Cambrian Unconformity
* Early Pre-Cambrian Rocks
o Vishnu Schist and Zoroaster Granite - mica schist, originally sediments of sandstone, limestone and shale that were metamorphosed and combined with metamorphosed lava flows to form the schist, once the roots of an ancient mountain range

* The website said:

Coconino Sandstone - This layer ... is composed of pure quartz sand, which are basically petrified sand dunes. Wedge-shaped cross bedding can be seen where traverse-type dunes have been petrified.
* and
Tapeats Sandstone - This layer ... is composed of medium-grained and coarse-grained sandstone. Ripple marks formed by ocean waves of an early Cambrian sea are common in the upper layer.

* In reality those seem more likely to be electrical effects.

[webolife]

Lloyd, you have done some good research here.
Remember in your search for the answer to contemporaneity of humans and dinosaurs that the prevailing paradigms are:
1. Uniformitarianism -- slow gradual accumulation of sediments over geologic time, and...
2. Superposition -- strata found beneath other strata are therefore [significantly] older than overlying strata.
These two views bias any understanding of "when" certain fossils were formed. Remember also that a fossil only shows us how/when something died, not anything about how/when it lived. Some accompanying details can be helpful... such as the presence of tropical plants, worldwide distribution of coal and fossil fuels, suggesting a former warmer climate worldwide, fossil graveyards evidencing worldwide catastrophe, etc.
Gradual sedimentary build-up is a scenario that is modeled often by the old mud-in-a-jar... you shake it up and let it sit... it takes a significant period of time to settle and the sorting of particles, sedimentation rates, etc. when compared to the miles deep rock strata we see in various plateau and mountainous regions, inform the idea of epochs of time. Important to that storyline is the fact that these strata are generally found conformable, ie lying flatly and "undisturbed" upon each other.
In the epochal scenario this is explained as a result of a long hiatus of slow mountain building and erosion, leaving the entire world flat every several hundred million years. This part of the storyline leaves us with unimaginably long periods of time during which no evidence is remaining for us to "get" except for these flat conformable strata. These epochal but non-evidenced periods are referred to as hiatus strata. Hence, geologic time. On the other hand, suppose that each major strata is laid down in a single event, which is what particular rock formations appear to demonstrate, both in consistency of particulation, inclusion [orlack] of fossils, etc. throughout the formation. Now remove the hiatal part of the story, and you have many strata of material being laid down successively in just possibly a single worldwide event. Add to this alternate perspective the fact that water currents lay down multiple layers of sediment at the same time, so that objects lying over top other objects in those layers no longer bear the signature of relative youth or age. Now in looking at the Grand Canyon sequences we have only to imagine a VERY large amount of MOVING water sweeping over this former [sea] basin, and we ask ourselves the question: why do we see the particular fossils in the particular order or strata? To this paradigm shift we add the concept of burial by habitat and mobility, with creatures of less mobility and "deeper" [as in closer to the seafloor] habitat being buried in general at a lower level than those living nearer the surface or terrestrial habituaters with greater mobility being buried generally at higher levels. Now ask again the question: Were dinosaurs possibly contemporaneous with humans? and find there is no geologic evidence to the contrary. All this without regard to the electrical aspect of fossilization that might play a part of the catastrophic mechanism.

[Lloyd]

* I'm with you, Webo. What I'd like to do is to put the pieces together to see if there's any good evidence that dinosaurs etc lived in the age of humans. Unfortunately, there are a lot of pieces that would take a lot of work to put together, but, fortunately, Wikipedia has data on some or many of them. I found that it has the "pieces" [of the puzzle] posted as formations, meaning rock formations. Luckily, it has 2 convenient lists: a List of fossil sites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fossil_sites; and a List of dinosaur-bearing rock formations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_di ... formations.
* If mammals [not counting the little ones] and humans are not found in any of the same strata as dinosaurs, then I'd like to find out the most likely reasons. It could be that they did die out before most mammals arrived, but that could have been just hundreds or thousands of years earlier, instead of millions. I guess the best evidence is the drawing in the Southwest of a dinosaur, which I think Velikovsky mentioned in Earth in Upheaval.

* Here are two examples of the sort of fossil info available.
Wikipedia: Morrison Formation in CANADA & USA Midwest, Upper Jurassic

*Fossil finds
- no angiosperms (grasses, flowers, and some trees),
- Conifers, the dominant plants, with ginkgos, cycads, tree ferns, and horsetail rushes
- Much riparian vegetation [along river flood plains]
- Insects very similar to modern species, with termites building 30 m (100 ft.) tall nests
- Along rivers were fish, frogs, salamanders, lizards, crocodiles, turtles, pterosaurs, crayfish, clams, and small monotremes (prototherian mammals)
Hundreds of likely riparian dinosaurs, such as Allosaurus, Camptosaurus, Ornitholestes, at least two species of Stegosaurus and the slightly older Hesperosaurus, and the early ankylosaurs, Mymoorapelta and Gargoyleosaurus, a very broad range of sauropods (the giants of the Mesozoic era)
- (Camptosaurus embryoes)
- Sauropods include the Diplodocus, Camarasaurus (the most common sauropod), Brachiosaurus, Apatosaurus (wrongly known as Brontosaurus), Barosaurus, the uncommon Haplocanthosaurus and the Seismosaurus
*Sites and quarries
* Bone Cabin, Wyoming
* Garden Park, Colorado: Stegosaurus stenops
* Cleveland-Lloyd Quarry, Utah: Most of the allosaurs, the unique Stokesosaurus and Marshosaurus
* Como Bluff, Wyoming: many different sauropods and non-dinosaur species
* Dinosaur National Monument, Utah
* Hanksville-Burpee Quarry, Utah
* Dry Mesa Quarry, Colorado: the longest dinosaur known, the Supersaurus, the chimeric Ultrasauros, and the largest carnivore on the continent, the Torvosaurus
* Fruita Paleontological Resource Area: Numerous mammals, lizards, and crocodiles, Fruitafossor windscheffelia

Wikipedia: Marcellus Formation

Bearpaw Formation overlies
Judith River Formation, which conformably overlies
Claggett Formation =? Pakowki Formation

Fossils in Bearpaw Formation
- ammonites
- shellfish
- bony fish
- sharks
- rays
- sea turtles
- birds
- mosasaurs
- plesiosaurs
- occasional dinosaurs

Judith River Formation = Belly River Formation = Lea Park Formation = Wapiti Formation = Oldman Formation and Foremost Formation
Fossils in Judith River Formation
- Cartilaginous fish
- Bony fish
- Amphibians
- Lizards
- Choristoderes
- Crocodilians
- Turtles
- Ankylosaurian dinosaurs
- Ceratopsian dinosaurs
- Ornithopod dinosaurs
- Pachycephalosaurian dinosaurs
- Theropod dinosaurs

[seasmith]

~
Webolife,

You wrote:

Now remove the hiatal part of the story, and you have many strata of material being laid down successively in just possibly a single worldwide event.

Are you playing Lucifer's advocate here, or are you leaning toward this view?
Why need it be one extreme or the other?

In just the little span of recorded history, there have been multiple periods of quiescence (hiatus) and geo-upheaval, ie: Greece/ Turkey, Indonesia, N. China and etc.

If there occur grand celestial cycles, then why not corresponding geo-cycles ?

i'm just saying...

s

[webolife]

Seasmith,
I'm using "hiatus" differently from you.
Imagine millions of years of mountain building episodes around the world... think of the kind of topography one would expect to find in the rock record... now imagine millions more years of erosion wearing all that topography down to utter flatness. Now run that whole scenario over again for every rock layer that is distinguishable worldwide... now realize that the only evidence we have for these millions and millions of years is two layers of flat sedimentary strata lying conformably one on another. There are quite a few of these, notably PreCambrian/Cambrian, Cretacious/Tertiary, Permian, and so forth. In other words many millions of years of geologic time are ascribed to zones in which no evidence exists. Often these strata are identifiable by the great "leap" in fossil types between the two layers. That missing period between the two layers is referred to as the "hiatus". Not a "hiatal" lull in activity but millions, no, hundreds of millions of years of tremendous geological work, all "evidenced" by, in some cases totally conformable layers of rock. in other words zero evidence. Looking at any particular rock formation, you generally see a single event. Subtract the imagined hiatal epochs of time alleged to have occurred between them, and it is possible to envision a number [maybe all] of the layers being successively laid down over a relatively short, yes even catastrophically short time period. Supporting this view are numerous examples of successive layers, as in the Grand Canyon of the Colorado river, exhibiting the sorted particulate characteristics you would expect to find in layers that were laid down in a single depositional event, ie. Sandstone below shale, below limestone, etc. A suitable mechanism? Deep, flowing water, as opposed to the usual "shallow quiet seas".
Not to mislead here, I do believe the early seas of the earth were shallow and terrestrial topography relatively smooth, and that continental drift mechanisms created the relatively "rough" surface characterizing today's earth. I favor pretty much any view that acknowledges the rapid separation of the continents, unlike the fingernail growth rate of current continent separation. Rapid fossilization scenarios, the topic of this thread, fit nicely into this perspective.

[Lloyd]

* Webo, how's that for an illustration of an unconformity? There's another illustration at
http://www.answersincreation.org/stratigraphy2.htm along with discussion.
* I think it was Ian Taylor I read who said that, if it took millions of years for each rock stratum to be laid down, there should be evidence of erosion between strata, so that the strata would not be smooth, but would show frequent dips where especially water erosion occurred.
* As for unconformities, such as shown above under the Tapeats stratum, it's pretty obvious that the lower strata tilted and something removed the remaining upper portion and did so by leveling off the new horizontal surface. So how did it get leveled? Water erosion would not level it that way. No one has likely suggested that glaciation leveled anything in the Southwest. Wind and vulcanism obviously didn't level it. It looks like the only remaining candidate is EDM, electric discharge machining. Am I right? If so, does this suggest that
1. the lower layers were deposited electrically very quickly;
2. then the land tilted, maybe from rapid continental drift;
3. then EDM leveled the new surface;
4. then electrical forces deposited the upper horizontal layers; and
5. finally, EDM carved out the Grand Canyon?
And all that occurred possibly in a few days, weeks, months, or a few years?

[webolife]

I'm still ruminating on the EDM package... I'm not dissatisfied enough with my own view to need a lot of EDM, but I keep looking and listening to what folks here are saying. Something tells me that seeing an EDM in action on the earth may preclude me being able to talk about it later. Rapid deposition by means of water currents [deep volumnous ones] interspersed with continent drift scenario orogenies, with the understanding that this is happening in a short enough time period that the smoothed off layers had not yet solidified, solves most of the questions I have.

[Grey Cloud]

Hi folks,
I don't want to derail this excellent thread but I have a question about EDM. Everything I have read, which is admittedly not a lot, assumes that the mega-bolt comes from the sky and strikes the Earth. My question: what would happen if the bolt came from the Earth and shot upwards. Would there still be EDM on the Earth?
On a related note: have any of you guys looked for possible EDM evidence in the eastern Med / ME region?

[seasmith]

~
Lloyd,

You wrote:

1. the lower layers were deposited electrically very quickly;
2. then the land tilted, maybe from rapid continental drift;
3. then EDM leveled the new surface;

[Insert Unconformity here]

4. then electrical forces deposited the upper horizontal layers; and
5. finally, EDM carved out the Grand Canyon?
And all that occurred possibly in a few days, weeks, months, or a few years?

The unconformity you are displaying is of course the Precambrian/Cambrian divide, widely found around the earth.
I have no problem with likely Electrical forces doing the leveling, and a bunch of EDM but,
when we find , for example, beds of metamorphed aggregates; themselves composed of various igneous, metamorphic and sedimentary rock layers now arrayed below and upthrust above them, it doesn't grok out as a near simultaneous event.
It would be like making the sand, cement, gravel And concrete
all in the same mixer !!

As an aside, have you ever spent a significant period of time walking around in the Grand Canyon, and the other stupendously exposed geologic terrains in the US southwest ?
My trivial personal reflection is that: it warn't made quickly bro.

~s~

[moses]

* Webo, how's that for an illustration of an unconformity? There's another illustration at
http://www.answersincreation.org/stratigraphy2.htm along with discussion.
* I think it was Ian Taylor I read who said that, if it took millions of years for each rock stratum to be laid down, there should be evidence of erosion between strata, so that the strata would not be smooth, but would show frequent dips where especially water erosion occurred.
* As for unconformities, such as shown above under the Tapeats stratum, it's pretty obvious that the lower strata tilted and something removed the remaining upper portion and did so by leveling off the new horizontal surface. So how did it get leveled? Water erosion would not level it that way. No one has likely suggested that glaciation leveled anything in the Southwest. Wind and vulcanism obviously didn't level it. It looks like the only remaining candidate is EDM, electric discharge machining. Am I right? If so, does this suggest that
1. the lower layers were deposited electrically very quickly;
2. then the land tilted, maybe from rapid continental drift;
3. then EDM leveled the new surface;
4. then electrical forces deposited the upper horizontal layers; and
5. finally, EDM carved out the Grand Canyon?
And all that occurred possibly in a few days, weeks, months, or a few years?

Would not the lower, tilted layers be very old and weathering produced
the level surface, which was probably world-wide. Then the oceans
were electrically machined out and the mushy material produced was
deposited in phases. The Grand Canyon being carved out recently
during planetary interaction.
Mo

[Lloyd]

* Seasmith:

when we find , for example, beds of metamorphed aggregates; themselves composed of various igneous, metamorphic and sedimentary rock layers now arrayed below and upthrust above them, it doesn't grok out as a near simultaneous event.
It would be like making the sand, cement, gravel And concrete all in the same mixer !!

* I mentioned that it may have taken days to years. I didn't mean to suggest that one electrical event could lay down more than one stratum at a time. The mixer would pour a layer of sand, then a layer of mud, then a layer of lime, sometimes a mixture etc. It might pour the same thing several layers in a row, then pour several layers of something else. Each pouring of a layer might take a few hours, surely not more than a day or a few days.
* The ocean basins were initially nearly empty. EDM may have carved the ocean basins, or at least it did a lot of carving on the slopes of the continents before the Great Flood arrived. Then the flood may have laid down some or all of the strata, though Thornhill told me he thinks some of them were EDM deposition. The flood waters remained in most places for several months. Then EDM provided the finishing touches.
* The breakup of the Saturn system may have taken several decades or even a few centuries and there may have been 2 or several catastrophic events during that time. The Earth may have exchanged electrical strikes with Saturn, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and or the Moon and maybe more. Cardona has suggested that the Sodom and Gamorrah destruction resulted from an exchange with Jupiter or its moon Io, as Io has sulphur and brimstone was probably sulphur. That may have been the final major catastrophe, but still rather minor.

have you ever spent a significant period of time walking around in the Grand Canyon, and the other stupendously exposed geologic terrains in the US southwest? My trivial personal reflection is that: it warn't made quickly bro.

* Do you mean the strata weren't laid down quickly? Or do you mean the canyon wasn't carved out quickly? Thornhill has suggested that the canyon was carved out very quickly electrically, I think in a matter of hours at most. He says the same of the Mars canyon, though it would have taken at least a few times longer. Thornhill or at least Stephen Smith has also suggested in a TPOD that a deep layer of Mars' northern hemisphere was removed by EDM and deposited in its southern hemisphere, apparently in a matter of days at most. I think these are relevant TPODs.
http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch ... canyon.htm
http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch ... anyon2.htm
http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch ... osnote.htm
* GC said:

what would happen if the bolt came from the Earth and shot upwards. Would there still be EDM on the Earth? On a related note: have any of you guys looked for possible EDM evidence in the eastern Med / ME region?

* It seems like Juergens talked about interplanetary lightning, such as between Mars and the Moon, involving first a leader stroke, then at least one return stroke. The body that the leader stroke comes from probably has to be either the cathode or the anode. Have you read his article, "Of the Moon and Mars"? It's at http://www.kronia.com/library/electrical1.html and http://www.kronia.com/library/electrical2.html. If you want to talk about fossil finds in the Med. or Middle East, feel free to discuss.
* Mo said:

Would not the lower, tilted layers be very old and weathering produced the level surface, which was probably world-wide. Then the oceans were electrically machined out and the mushy material produced was deposited in phases. The Grand Canyon being carved out recently during planetary interaction.

* What would have tilted the early strata? I think rapid continental drift is the best answer. See http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpBB3/v ... =10&t=1462 . How can water erosion make the underlying strata flat? If you have a depression, water erosion from elsewhere nearby can level the depression by filling it in with sediment. But, when you take a cross section of the filled-in depression, you see a layer that had a depression or dip, and above it you sea a layer that filled in the dip. You don't see that with the Grand Canyon cross section. There are no valleys or depressions in the lower strata that were filled in by upper stratum material. The new surface of the tilted lower strata are smoothed flat. See?
* Here's an example.

[nick c]

As an aside, have you ever spent a significant period of time walking around in the Grand Canyon, and the other stupendously exposed geologic terrains in the US southwest ?
My trivial personal reflection is that: it warn't made quickly bro.

It is difficult to imagine the required magnitude of the proposed EDM process, such that it could have created those majestic formations in a short period of time, especially since we do not see it in action today. However, the process is demonstrated in a lab or in furrows excavated by conventional lightning strikes at much smaller scales. If one accepts the scalability of the process, and I have never seen this scalability premise refuted, then why not? when the explanation actually fits what is observed (on this as well as other planets) better than conventional explanations. Note that this area is a high point, [url2=http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/gct/coloplat.htm]The Colorado Plateau[/url2], an expected touch down point for a lightning strike. That the excavated material is missing is consistent with EDM. The material would have escaped the earth and become part of the collection of rocky debris populating the solar system and/or fallen as rains of stones on other parts of the globe. There is numerous ancient testimony from different cultures of the destructive power of cosmic thunderbolts and rains of hot rocks causing great concern to our ancestors.

nick c

[moses]

>>* Mo said:
>>Would not the lower, tilted layers be very old
>>and weathering produced the level surface, which
>>was probably world-wide. Then the oceans were
>>electrically machined out and the mushy material
>>produced was deposited in phases. The Grand Canyon
>>being carved out recently during planetary interaction.
>
>* What would have tilted the early strata? I think rapid continental drift is
>the best answer. See viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1462 .

If the Earth was formed from a chunk of Saturn's surface,
for example, then it is possible that these strata were
formed on Saturn, but unlikely. More likely is that the
Earth is old and has experienced much. Consider adding
an atmosphere and water to the Moon, at the same time
EDM the surface producing many layers of sediment. So
what would you make of the old twisted rocks that would
be underneath the new sediment layers ?

>How can water erosion make the underlying strata flat?
>If you have a depression, water erosion from
>elsewhere nearby can level the depression by filling it in with sediment.
>But, when you take a cross section of the filled-in depression, you see a
>layer that had a depression or dip, and above it you sea a layer that filled
>in the dip. You don't see that with the Grand Canyon cross section. There are
>no valleys or depressions in the lower strata that were filled in by upper
>stratum material. The new surface of the tilted lower strata are smoothed
>flat. See?
>Lloyd

So the old rocks were probably not levelled by water erosion.
One wonders whether it was EDM that levelled the surface.
Or was it wind and lots of time ! I think we are moving
too far into the past, before humanity, when there was not
much effect on humanity. Whereas the overlying sediment tell
a story that has very much affected humanity.
Mo