G-cloud is the answer

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celeste
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G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by celeste » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:14 pm

What is the question? The question is "If the sun is spiraling around in some Birkeland current filament (the local interstellar cloud), where is the other filament? You can't just have one filament!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-Cloud
So Proxima Centauri, the closest star to the sun, is not in the Local Interstellar Cloud? It's in a cloud right next to ours, and it's cloud is "interacting" with our cloud.
Since sometimes it's easier to step back and look at the bigger picture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Local ... arrows.jpg
Now superimpose the picture from the first link.

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Solar
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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by Solar » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:47 am

Celeste: Would you consider that the “filament”, perhaps the primary one, for our Sun exist at the ‘interface’ between these “clouds” and thus the reason for the way the Sun is depicted as being offset from center in comparison to the two? All of the references previewed thus far suggest that we are simply moving through them, or that they are simply moving past us.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

celeste
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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by celeste » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:56 pm

Solar, compare the diagram in section 6.8 here: http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2011/12 ... chapter-6/
with the picture in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-Cloud

The local cloud and G cloud are a twisted pair. The sun is near the center and traveling nearly axially. The average particle in the Local cloud is more distant from the central axis, and so the cloud has a more azimuthal component.
This is why we don't see are sun moving with the local cloud,but instead see them moving at nearly right angles.

celeste
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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by celeste » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:10 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Local ... arrows.jpg
Or again in this picture, the sun moving nearly down the center of this spiral (which appears to be well defined at the tip of the sun's directional arrow), and the local cloud spiraling more AROUND that axis.

celeste
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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by celeste » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:24 pm

Why is the sun spiraling so closely along the central axis, while the filament (LIC) as a whole sweeps out a wider path? the answer is here: http://archive.stsci.edu/hut/papers/afd ... node7.html
The q/m for the local cloud is actually LOWER than q/m of the sun.

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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by Solar » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:57 pm

celeste wrote:Why is the sun spiraling so closely along the central axis, while the filament (LIC) as a whole sweeps out a wider path? the answer is here: http://archive.stsci.edu/hut/papers/afd ... node7.html
The q/m for the local cloud is actually LOWER than q/m of the sun.
I had some reading to hash out real quick as there was a problem with the G-Cloud in my mind. The problem was actually due to the age of the paper “Local Interstellar Matter: The Apex Cloud” – P. Frisch 2003, August - which asserts the presence of the G-Cloud in an uncertain manner per subsection “2.2 G-Cloud”. It appears that due to “intermittent” velocity components using galactic center (GC) as a reference point there are “cloudlets or filaments” put forth as being part of a “bulk flow” in the ISM. Firsch thought this to be “consistent with a larger object (or shell) fragmented into cloudlets or filaments”. Otherwise the (shared) velocity component of these fragmented ‘filamentation of cloudlets’ would be the result of a “serendipitous coincidence in velocity”. But the following two statements were also made:

In 2.2 - “… the assumption is made here that the G-Cloud is real.”

In 3.2 – “… the next set of tests as to whether the AC or GC (if it is real) will form the future solar environment.”

That paper is nearly ten years old and it didn’t seem as if the author was certain about the existence of the G-Cloud at that time, probably due to the ‘fragmentation of the cloudlets’ within the stream or “bulk flow”, but the author needed to assert the position that the G-Cloud is real owing to the shared velocity component of said cloudlets. A later 2007 paper has more certainty; which is what I was looking for. At the onset, in the abstract, this paper has what I wanted, or needed; to see, especially in relation to your subsequent q/m ratio point.

Portion of :
Abstract:

Relative velocities of potentially interacting clouds are often supersonic, consistent with heating, turbulent, and metal-depletion properties. Cloud-cloud collisions may be responsible for the filamentary morphologies found in ~1.3 of LISM clouds, the distribution of clouds along the boundaries of the two nearest clouds (LIC and G), the detailed shape and heating of the Mic Cloud, the location of nearby radio scintillation screens, and the location of a LISM cold cloud. Contrary to previous claims, the Sun appears to be located in the transition zone between the LIC and the G Clouds”.

- The Structure of the Local Interstellar Medium IV: dynamics, Morphology, Physical Properties, and Implication of Cloud-Cloud Interactions” –Redfield & Linsky
As stated in another thread it’s not in the “cavity” that the action is occurring, this is from whence the plasma has been ‘evacuated’ though I don't want to disregard the importance of that. It is along the interacting ‘edges’ (double-layers) of these tenuous “clouds” in the local interstellar medium – now understood as having their integrity from magnetic fields - that we should find filamentation (currents). The “transition zone” mentioned in the above extract is ripe for this area and thus an axis. As of right now I suspect some form of currents, might also be there. Having just finished reading the second paper mentioned (24 pages) I was extracting some info and there are two references that I want to check up on.

Right now, the in situ information in the above 2nd paper has been supportive with what you are putting forth because the Sun is NOT in the LIC proper nor in the G-Cloud but in the transition region between the two. One would think such a region to perhaps be rather dull but with interactive “shocks”, ionization, double-layers etc … I think maybe not.

I could be wrong but I at least need to see if anything filamentary, of higher density, etc etc has been observed there.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by Solar » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:58 am

Celeste

The LIC and G-cloud relationship impresses me as a significant find.

Page 15 of Redfield & Linsky is titled “5. Where Clouds Collide” with subsection being “5.1 The “Ring of Fire” Around the G Cloud”. It is an analogy to the tectonic plates of the Pacific moving against one another. The section also refers to the ionization of dust grains, “radio scintillation screens” (refraction/scattering etc of radio signals from pulsars through variations of cloud density occurring mainly at the more dense ‘edges’ of said clouds). Three of five such scintillation screens “lie near the interface of the LIC and G clouds.” These are signatures of the increased density that, I think, would speak to the presence of graduated cloud boundaries and possible double-layers ‘mingling’ at their interactive regions not not to mention the customary 'kinematical overlapping' of clouds as seen from the less that electrical interpretations of typical astrophysics.

I am wanting to say that I think you have found our 'section' of a Birkeland current filament sandwiched (‘pinched”) between the different “bulk flows” of these two interacting “clouds” (two different plasma regimes” known to be moving against one another at different velocities, known to have magnetic fields ensuring their integrity, and known to be filamentary). There should exist large scale electric discharges. The two clouds are presumed to induce “turbulence” along the interaction regions of their subtle boundaries.

It’s just as you stated elsewhere: We’re sitting in the midst of these filamentary clouds and cloudlets and can’t see the trees, or their branches, because of the forest.

It’s as plain as what is portrayed in this image from Hershel of IC 5146 Molecular Cloud

The Golden/Orange colored ‘clouds and cloudlets” of immense scale (the LIC alone is some 30 “light-years” in scope) surrounding the star forming electrical discharges in the above referenced graphic are the same as those of the LIC and G-Cloud for our local region. For that reference, stars lie along the filaments of electric currents (A & A Paper; “Characterizing Interstellar filaments with Herschel in IC 5146”). The paper by Redfield & Linsky resolves a whopping 15 such local interstellar clouds for our region. We need the same kind of resolution for our local region and I think your G-Cloud reference would be recognized for the priceless find that it is.

Are we converging?

Is anyone else on this forum seeing this?
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

celeste
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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by celeste » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:24 am

Solar, That paper by Redfield and Linsky is awesome! I like that the mainstrem found that the "scattering screens" of enhanced electron density "lie close to the edges of several of our dynamical clouds". The fact that they are so clearly mapping out Birkeland current filaments and double layers without a model to guide them is impressive. If you or I showed these correlations, we'd be accused of interpreting the data to fit our EU model.
Now remember where Sirius sits in this picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Local ... arrows.jpg
Remember that we were able to show that only if Sirius and the sun were spiraling along the same axis, would we be able to explain the relationship between Sirius' proper motion and earth's rate of precession. (The work of the Sirius Research Institute is important here). So we have redundancy, with the motion of local clouds giving us the same axis for the Birkeland current, as we were able to derive from looking at star motions alone.

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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by Solar » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:53 am

You know; it actually is pretty amazing that radio scintillations were found and noted. But I guess the goal was simply to take advantage of as many sight lines as were possible in order to distinguish enough differentiations to establish bulk flows. As a result there exist some good (generally) defined cloud data and a little more than just a hint that there is “turbulence” at their interacting “edges”. Hence, the door has been opened to further pursue resolution of those interacting boundaries close to home.

I think you bring up another important point when you say that “… they are so clearly mapping out Birkeland current filaments and double layers without a model to guide them". So called “turbulence theory” in relation to the formation of filaments has never been an adequate solution, they know this, but they keep using it:
The prevalence of filaments in the ISM has never been adequately explained by turbulence theory … Some ISM filaments are not from turbulence but are the edges of expanding shells.- Section 5.7 of “SIMULATIONS OF INTERSTELLAR TURBULENCE
How does one characterize that? They actually do have a model to “guide” them (“turbulence theory”) but it’s known to be inadequate so another incorrect 'model' forms their foundation. By the way; here is another paper by Linsky et al pointing to variations in electron density at cloud boundaries and interfaces as the cause of radio scintillations [pg.2 paragraph 2/pg 3 paragraph 3]:

The Origin of Radio Scintillation In the Local Interstellar Medium

And/or
Although it seems reasonable to attribute some fraction of the scattering toward PSR B1849+00 to G33.418-0.004, the H II region does not appear to be capable of explaining it all. The line of sight to PSR B1849+00 would have to pierce several hundred similar H II regions. Higher-density filaments or tendrils from the H II region may be in front of the pulsar and responsible for the anomalous scattering, but the identification of such filaments must await H observations of higher resolution and sensitivity.On the Enhanced Interstellar Scattering toward B1849+005 - T. Joseph W. Lazio
That is where we're at; needing some H observations. I also enjoyed the title and abstract of the following:
Both forward and reverse Scintillation Arcs are seen in observations of several pulsars. We study the arcs, which are seen in the 2‐D Fourier transform of the dynamic spectrum, from PSRs B0834+06 and B1737+13. In both cases we conclude that the underlying scattered image is highly extended along an axis and also highly modulated along that axis. The corresponding spatial structure in the ionized interstellar medium must be bundles of spaghetti‐like filaments−highly anisotropic turbulence (on scales of 1000–10000 km) which is also very intermittent on scales of an AU. We speculate on their possible origin as remnant turbulence from long past supernovae. – Pulsar Scintillation Arcs reveal filaments in the Interstellar Plasma
Until H observations of the LIC and/or G-Cloud are is done for local region we won’t be seeing any resolutions of the filaments (images). It is nice to be aware though that the radio scintillations are pointing directly at them. At this point it appears that the research has revealed a gap in our relation to the local interstellar medium and most all work I’ve pursued focuses primarily on “turbulence theory” related musings. Suffice to say that IBEX and Ulysses have provided some assistance I don’t think anything is going to amount the scope that H observations might provide. As an example here is the only interesting image and paper with grey scales of the nearby Sco-Cen complex (it is presumed that we are also interacting with a “shell” from this formation) that I could find:

Upper Scorpius Association

The interstellar medium surrounding the Scorpius-Centaurus association revisited

Solar System's "Nose" Found; Aimed at Constellation Scorpius”

There has to exist some filamentary interaction, perhaps inducing 'bright spots' with the heliopshere boundary, for our Sun with what the data are showing. These things get us closer to some local B-currents.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

celeste
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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by celeste » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:32 am

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1964IAUS...20...10E

See the last paragraph on pg 15. So a large percentage of young stars near the sun,perhaps the whole Gould Belt complex,could have been produced from one cloud? This cloud has a high relative motion compared to the sun? In EU, don't we know that when the mainstream says "young", they really should be saying "high current input"? So we are seeing a whole "cloud" of stars (already noted as a filament), all with signs of having relatively high current input?

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Solar
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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by Solar » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:17 pm

Not only does the information presented in the following paper convey what the interaction of double-layers might be like; the “Sancini-van Woerden filament” that “stretches almost perpendicular to the galactic plane” is relavant. Note also that other (HI) filaments are indicated in this rough portrayal as existing in that region:

Structure of the local interstellar medium, and the origin of the soft x-ray background

No further information on the SvW “Fibre” other than its existence and possible interaction with our heliosphere:
The interaction of Loop I with theSancini-van Woerden Fibre can result in the evaporation of significant part of the Fibre that can substantially influence the position of the heliopause in the Solar System. – The evolution of Local Interstellar Medium
:shock:
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

celeste
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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by celeste » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:42 am

Solar, the diagram at the top of page 230 may be interesting to you:
http://download.springer.com/static/pdf ... b&ext=.pdf

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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by Solar » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:41 pm

So, at this point I think my approach would be that the LIC and G-Cloud interactive filaments are on par with the analogy of your earlier comparative relationship to the Double Helix nebula, relative to understanding our solar system as likewise being within such a large complex. I also still like the G-Cloud and LIC double layer interactive boundary relationship for the much larger scale because it seems that plasma scaling is in order for these relationships.

The second paper you’ve noted by N. Bolchkarev (Local interstellar Medium) shows the Sco-Cen relationship via cartoon and, like other works, proposes that we are interacting with the double layer boundary of the Sco-Cen filament – and/or existing within it proper (P.Firsch 2nd pg).

What I find highly interesting though is the “Sancini-van Woerden filament” running almost perpendicular to the galactic plane yet portrayed as being embedded within the receding ‘cell wall’ of the larger Sco-Cen filament. I do not understand the use of the word “evaporation” because it stems from interpretations using ideal gas “laws” and isotropic assumptions. This was pointed out on pg 472 (as labeled) of The Evolution of the Local Interstellar Medium by Kosarev et al.
Gas-dynamics equations are usually used when describing the evolution of supernova remnants…
Right now I’m considering some form of charge exchange/ionization interaction instead of gas related “evaporation” with regard to the Sancini-van Woerden filament. They only consider electron and ion temperature with supernova “shocks” providing density increases and the like. The same thing in Sec 4 with regard to the SvW Fibre where:
For simplicity we assume in this section of the paper that all objects considered here consist of ideal hydrogen gas.
The interaction of Loop I of Sco-Cen is said to be able to “evaporate” a “significant part of the Fibre (according to Bochkarev 1987, 1990 its thickness is of the order of 1 pc).” But later, in Sec 5, the interaction of Loop I and the envelope of the Local Cavern the “evaporation of gas from the envelope” produces what they consider to be “one of the most important effects” … bremsstrahlung emission. The energy of the “transition region” produced via interaction between Loop I and the Local Cavern even reaches Earth in the form of ultrasoft X-Rays.

This is referred to as “evaporation”? I think not; that can't be correct.

Sec 6 posits an interaction that is very interesting in relation to this X-Ray producing form of “evaporation” over time. That the Local Cloud will be “evaporated” as a result of interaction with Loop I and:
At the same time the interaction of Loop I with the SW Fibre can result in the evaporation of a significant portion of the SW Fibre.
The second para of Sec 6 then goes on to posit the influences that these interactions can have on the heliopause:
The evaporation of the gas from the SW Fibre can substantially influence the evolution of the Solar system …
Why isn’t it that the SW Fibre is ionizing Loop I which then ‘tempers’ the subsequent (secondary) ionization of the Local Cavern within which we reside thus presenting an analogous ‘stepped down’ form of charge exchange - all of which would stem from the interaction of double layers with the Ionizaton Front of an electric current (the SvW Fibre)?
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

celeste
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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by celeste » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:47 pm

If only I stumbled on this first, could have saved us some time.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17833816

saul
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Re: G-cloud is the answer

Unread post by saul » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:48 am

Interesting discussion, thank you!

Also relevant is this "alternative" explanation of the IBEX ribbon feature:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 191114.htm

Or if you prefer the paper directly:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.3917


Cheers - Saul

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