Question about dynamos and redshift

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rcglinsk
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Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by rcglinsk » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:16 pm

Actually, I have three questions.

1. What did you all do to the guys over at bad astronomy? I wrote a post that said "I was reading about the electric universe theory and I had a question about plasma models and frozen-in magnetic fields..." and the replies were full of knee-jerk vitriol. At any rate, they do not like you. :)

2. Regarding the solar dynamo theory. The electric sun model treats the inside of the sun as a sort of dynamo right? I mean, if it's a conducive fluid that is rotating in the presence of a magnetic field, it shouldn't matter if the magnetic field is from a permanent magnet or from electric current or whatever black magic is behind a self-sustaining dynamo. If I stir salt water next to a magnet then electric and magnetic fields will show up in and around the water. Now of course, if you take the magnet away then the water's electric and magnetic fields eventually disappear regardless of how much you stir, and that means the self-sustaining dynamo idea is kinda silly. Incidentally, don't try to explain that on bad astronomy unless you have thicker skin than I do. I ended up calling a guy a curve-fitter and meant it as an insult. It was passive aggressive in a pathetic way.

Anyway, wouldn't a star in a electric sun/universe model still behave like a dynamo? If the solar substance is rotating below the surface then shouldn't there be induced electric and magnetic fields? I'm hoping to understand the differences between the electric and fusion models for the sun. When I read about dynamos to understand some of the stuff from the fusion model it struck me that the notion that the sun or a star can be a dynamo seemed pretty reasonable. Not an entire or self-sustaining dynamo, a normal dynamo, where the substance is in the presence of external electric or magnetic forces, forces the resulting dynamo action did not create.

Also, would it be worth my time to try to examine the solar dynamo models to actually understand what's supposed to be behind the self-sustaining dynamo? I'm really hoping for a shortcut here because I've taken a peak and all I see is a pile of equations a mile deep. Anyone know what's supposed to be going on?

A related question. Aren't both models using the exact same constituent equations for plasma physics/magnetohydrodynamics? It seems like the only difference is what sort of assumptions are made in the models. Also, I can't imagine you all actually have working computer models for high current density (J) but low magnetic reynold's number plasmas. Isn't that the situation where all the field aligned currents spontaneously form into Birkland twists and dual layers? My brain can't comprehend how the same set of equations could model the fluid dynamic/collisional and MHD qualities of areas without higher complexity structures, and model the structures that form. Even if you could somehow do that, how in the world could you model transitions in and out of the forms? I mean, wouldn't you have to have completely different sets of equations for areas with and without higher order structures and wouldn't the conditions that lead to the transitions be totally chaotic?

Finally, I read recently about people who sent a lot of seismic waves through the Earth to receiver stations on opposite sides. They claim that they analyzed the time it took to send waves from different places on the surface to the other side and that they could conclude that the very center of the Earth has a crystal structure that is different from the magma in between that center structure and the crust we inhabit. By structure I'm referring to what materials science would call FCC, BCC etc. It refers to the orientation atoms take toward each other in space. One formation will have atoms arranged on the corners of cubes, others will have that but also an atom in the center of the cube, there are a lot of varieties. The analysis, and I wish I could find the original, I'm kinda hoping you all read the same article I did, concluded what the two particular types of structure were. Now, suppose for the sake of argument that the central structure is a permanent magnet, and that the magma around that structure is conductive somehow, could currents resulting from dynamo phenomena in the magma influence the magnetic field of the Earth? If so, what would affect the contribution to the overall magnetic field from the permanent magnet and the dynamo fluid considered separably? Also, I have this nagging feeling that it's been proven that there is no permanent magnet inside the Earth, if so then I really meant this question as a pure thought project from the start, honest.

3. Please help me understand redshift in light. As I understand it a photon detector (of which there are several dozen varieties, each working over a certain region) does not actually measure wavelength, but rather it measures energy. The wavelength/frequency that is reported is the measured value either multiplied or divided by Plank's constant right? I figure that if whatever you're using to measure the incoming energy happens to be moving in the direction of the source of the incoming light, that the measured energy would have to be greater because the relative momentum of the thermometer (forgive the lay terminology) itself is contributing to the measured value. Isn't that what is required by conservation of momentum? I understand that because momentum is a classical phenomena that conservation of momentum doesn't really make sense when applied to a quantum situation, but I"m pretty sure that if you move a detector in the direction of the source of light that the measured energy will be greater than the energy you put into the emitter and that the change is pretty strictly related to the movement of the detector. And I think that the reverse should be true for a detector that is moving away from the source of light.

Now, I suppose I can't complain if some people want to phrase the situation as "the wavelength of the incoming light is either red or blue shifted," although I think if my understanding of the reason for the phenomena is right then that's somewhat inaccurate. It's not that the wavelength of the incoming light has somehow changed since it was emitted, it's that the energy of the impact on the sensor includes both a contribution from the light and from the momentum of the sensor. If I'm in a car going 50 miles per hour and I hit a car head on that's also going 50 miles an hour, it's going to hurt almost exactly as much as it would if I drove into a brick wall at 100 mph. But that doesn't mean that I was not actually moving on the highway, and that the car that hit me was actually going 100 mph. I figure a similar analogy can explain the situation from the point of view of a moving emitter and a standing detector. The motion of the emitter contributes to the wavelength of the light.

Where I get confused is in the transition from a red or blue shift measurement to a distance. I can understand how the red or blue shift could be expressed in the form of a velocity, in that regardless of the measured red or blue shift, and regardless of the source, the energy difference can be expressed in terms of the velocity of a sensor that would be required to produce the measured difference, or I suppose the convention is to calculate the velocity of a receding emitter relative to a stationary detector. Where I get lost is the transition from velocity to distance.

Suppose two universes, one where nothing is really moving relative to anything else over a large distance. All the relative motion is contained within galaxies/rotations/small scales. The amount of space in between any two objects will constantly increase when their actual motion relative to each other can be neglected (large distance scale). The other universe can be a place where those conditions do not hold. I can understand how an energy difference become wavelength shift become velocity could become distance in the first kind of universe, but I can't understand how the velocity could become a distance in the other universe. Can anyone help?

Also, I've read that the electric universe theory has proposed an explanation for red/blue shift that proposes that the incoming light's wavelength actually is different than what we would expect to see from an emitter like our sun for example. Isn't it that a "young" atom's nucleus is somehow less massive than the variety we find in our solar system and that an "old" atom's nucleus is somehow more massive than the versions found in our solar system? Please feel free to dispel any misconceptions I may have about the theory or elaborate competing theories if you have the time, but fundamentally I'd like to know if any of the proposed mechanisms for an actually different wavelength have experimental evidence to back them up.

May I close by thanking any reader for making it this far. Also, I swear I'm not trying to pick a fight, so if I've slighted your favorite hypothesis PLEASE don't take it personally. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm asking questions, even if they might sound like a lecture.

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iantresman
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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by iantresman » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:42 pm

rcglinsk wrote:1. What did you all do to the guys over at bad astronomy? I wrote a post that said "I was reading about the electric universe theory and I had a question about plasma models and frozen-in magnetic fields..." and the replies were full of knee-jerk vitriol. At any rate, they do not like you. :)
I think there are a combination factors:
  1. Those discussing either side of the argument, are not always as impartial, nor as eloquent, nor as scientific as they could be
  2. The Electric Universe is a new idea, so some/much of the science has not been done. BAUT expects new idea to be fully peer reviewed, and backed up with detailed mathematics and experiments.
  3. There is a tendency to over-generalize on both sides
  4. Pseudoskepticism

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iantresman
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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by iantresman » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:47 pm

rcglinsk wrote:2. Regarding the solar dynamo theory. The electric sun model treats the inside of the sun as a sort of dynamo right? I mean, if it's a conducive fluid that is rotating in the presence of a magnetic field, it shouldn't matter if the magnetic field is from a permanent magnet or from electric current or whatever black magic is behind a self-sustaining dynamo. If I stir salt water next to a magnet then electric and magnetic fields will show up in and around the water. Now of course, if you take the magnet away then the water's electric and magnetic fields eventually disappear regardless of how much you stir, and that means the self-sustaining dynamo idea is kinda silly. Incidentally, don't try to explain that on bad astronomy unless you have thicker skin than I do. I ended up calling a guy a curve-fitter and meant it as an insult. It was passive aggressive in a pathetic way.
The Plasma Universe has described the Sun as a Unipolar inductor... a sort of dynamo. For peer-reviewed articles, see Unipolar inductor.

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iantresman
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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by iantresman » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:06 pm

rcglinsk wrote:Where I get confused is in the transition from a red or blue shift measurement to a distance. I can understand how the red or blue shift could be expressed in the form of a velocity, in that regardless of the measured red or blue shift, and regardless of the source, the energy difference can be expressed in terms of the velocity of a sensor that would be required to produce the measured difference, or I suppose the convention is to calculate the velocity of a receding emitter relative to a stationary detector. Where I get lost is the transition from velocity to distance.
My understanding is that redshift is simply a measurement of how certain spectral lines have shifted, compared to such non-moving spectra here on Earth.

The Doppler effect is one known cause of redshift. But it was Edwin Hubble who discovered an approximate correlation between redshift and the distance to a number of galaxies. This linear relationship is assumed to valid, even to galaxies whose distance can not be determined independently.

Consequently, if you know an astronomical object's redshift, you can assume its distance... even if there were an instrinsic redshift (making the distance relationship inaccurate), you can always assume redhift is only a measure of distance.

In 1987, Emil Wolf predicted a new redshift mechanism (the Wolf effect), which was subsequently corroborated in the laboratory the following year. Wolf himself speculated that this redshift mechanism might contribute in some proportion to the Cosmological redshift. In some cases, the Wolf effect is indistinguishable from the Doppler (and Cosmological) redshifts.

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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by rcglinsk » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:56 pm

iantresman wrote:
rcglinsk wrote:1. What did you all do to the guys over at bad astronomy? I wrote a post that said "I was reading about the electric universe theory and I had a question about plasma models and frozen-in magnetic fields..." and the replies were full of knee-jerk vitriol. At any rate, they do not like you. :)
I think there are a combination factors:
  1. Those discussing either side of the argument, are not always as impartial, nor as eloquent, nor as scientific as they could be
  2. The Electric Universe is a new idea, so some/much of the science has not been done. BAUT expects new idea to be fully peer reviewed, and backed up with detailed mathematics and experiments.
  3. There is a tendency to over-generalize on both sides
  4. Pseudoskepticism
There is way too small a divergence for that to be the explanation. I think somehow the vB folks know they're using their model in ways they shouldn't, even if they're correct sometimes when they say the Ej model isn't right for a situation. The people at bad astronomy are not your typical I-net trolls, they're very sophisticated. And I never got the peer review mystique. In my biochem 2 undergrad class one of the final exam questions basically required you to read a peer reviewed study of how luecine and isoleucine bind to their t-RNAs, and determine that the author had grossly misinterpreted the results of her experiment, that it had slipped right by whatever peer review took place, and that the faulty conclusion had been cited as true in three other papers since the first error was published. FYI, a thin canyon above the bonding site in the t-RNA for isoleucine is not responsible for discriminating between the two similar amino acids, regardless of what the "peer review consensus" would like you to believe.

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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by davesmith_au » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:08 am

The people at bad astronomy are not your typical I-net trolls, they're very sophisticated.
:shock:
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rcglinsk
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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by rcglinsk » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:42 am

My understanding is that redshift is simply a measurement of how certain spectral lines have shifted, compared to such non-moving spectra here on Earth.
Yet I must strenuously object to your use of the passive voice in that sentence. I'm not looking for a prophet or an oracle here, but how do I know that there is no real non-relative motion; that whether I say the source or the receiver is moving doesn't matter, and also know that there is a real world out there; that both things are moving and that if a new receiver were put in the middle of myself and the emitter that it would have to read something, regardless of how fast I or the emitter are moving? Is it that frequency is real and wavelength is dependent on the medium the light is traveling in? And if so, how do we authentically talk about a wavelength shift at all? 'Wouldn't we really just be ignoring our own ignorance about interstellar medium?
The Doppler effect is one known cause of redshift. But it was Edwin Hubble who discovered an approximate correlation between redshift and the distance to a number of galaxies. This linear relationship is assumed to valid, even to galaxies whose distance can not be determined independently.
I have read precisely five thousand nine hundred and seventy two opinions as to whether that is an accurate statement. Is there really a strict relationship between red shift and distance? There are ways to measure distance other than red shift. There is paralax and some way to gander at a a type 1A super nova that can get you some pretty far off distances. If the data supports a linear relationship at those short scales, then it's not so wrong to say maybe the relationship continues. I worry though, given the old black-body radiation problem. We could only see so much light, and without measurements of UV and higher frequency light we couldn't see but a seemingly linear straight line dependence of intensity and frequency. Now we know of the plank equation, but for a long time a very, very wrong idea reigned in the minds of high science. The parallel to the Hubble equation is striking but not conclusive. I only know that there is data out there. Either it supports quantized red shift or it doesn't; either it supports a linear relationship or it doesn't. To the extent there is any "debate" on the issue one side is lying.
Consequently, if you know an astronomical object's redshift, you can assume its distance... even if there were an instrinsic redshift (making the distance relationship inaccurate), you can always assume redhift is only a measure of distance.
That's where my original confusion arose. Suppose I'm right and that if you throw a detector at an emitter that the detector will record a blue shift relative to what the emitter put out, then it shouldn't matter whether I was 10 feet away from the emitter when I threw the detector, or 10 miles, or 10 AU, or 10 light years, or 10 billion light years. The extra energy is the result of me throwing the detector, and nothing else. In that case I do not understand how a red or blue shift could strictly relate to distance. I don't see how there could be any relationship at all.
In 1987, Emil Wolf predicted a new redshift mechanism (the Wolf effect), which was subsequently corroborated in the laboratory the following year. Wolf himself speculated that this redshift mechanism might contribute in some proportion to the Cosmological redshift. In some cases, the Wolf effect is indistinguishable from the Doppler (and Cosmological) redshifts.
Now that is interesting. Compared to young matter is lighter I think it's worlds better, I just never thought that theory made any sense, but that's my rather uneducated opinion. And it's based on real actual experiments, which puts it miles ahead of the Hubble law outside of otherwise verifiable distance scales, and that's not just my opinion.

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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by iantresman » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:28 am

rcglinsk wrote:There is way too small a divergence for that to be the explanation. I think somehow the vB folks know they're using their model in ways they shouldn't, even if they're correct sometimes when they say the Ej model isn't right for a situation.
I suspect that the vast majority of people have no idea what is meant by v B and E j magnetic and current descriptions of plasmas, nor that there are appropriate uses for each. In such cases I defer to Alfvén.

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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by iantresman » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:36 am

rcglinsk wrote:Yet I must strenuously object to your use of the passive voice in that sentence. I'm not looking for a prophet or an oracle here, but how do I know that there is no real non-relative motion; that whether I say the source or the receiver is moving doesn't matter, and also know that there is a real world out there; that both things are moving and that if a new receiver were put in the middle of myself and the emitter that it would have to read something, regardless of how fast I or the emitter are moving? Is it that frequency is real and wavelength is dependent on the medium the light is traveling in? And if so, how do we authentically talk about a wavelength shift at all? 'Wouldn't we really just be ignoring our own ignorance about interstellar medium?
All very good questions to which I can't give categorical answers. We know for sure that redshift can be caused by the Doppler effect, and also by the Wolf effect, as these have been demonstrated in the laboratory.

Other possible redshift mechanism, as far as I know, are all conjecture, including Cosmological, gravitational, and other intrinsic and "tired light" mechanisms. Many of these can be excluded because they also distort their redshifts; but then so can some astrophysical redshifts due to "thermal or mechanical motion of the source".

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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by iantresman » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:41 am

rcglinsk wrote:I have read precisely five thousand nine hundred and seventy two opinions as to whether that is an accurate statement. Is there really a strict relationship between red shift and distance? There are ways to measure distance other than red shift. There is paralax and some way to gander at a a type 1A super nova that can get you some pretty far off distances. If the data supports a linear relationship at those short scales, then it's not so wrong to say maybe the relationship continues. I worry though, given the old black-body radiation problem. We could only see so much light, and without measurements of UV and higher frequency light we couldn't see but a seemingly linear straight line dependence of intensity and frequency. Now we know of the plank equation, but for a long time a very, very wrong idea reigned in the minds of high science. The parallel to the Hubble equation is striking but not conclusive. I only know that there is data out there. Either it supports quantized red shift or it doesn't; either it supports a linear relationship or it doesn't. To the extent there is any "debate" on the issue one side is lying.
It also sounds plausible. Here on Earth at night, there is also a correlation between artificial light brightness and distance (eg. streetlights). But even though we could prove the correlation, it's a brave person who would bet that a particular lgiht is at the predicted distance (eg. if it turns out not to be a known type of streetlight, or pollution in the atmosphere).

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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by iantresman » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:54 am

rcglinsk wrote:
In 1987, Emil Wolf predicted a new redshift mechanism (the Wolf effect), which was subsequently corroborated in the laboratory the following year. Wolf himself speculated that this redshift mechanism might contribute in some proportion to the Cosmological redshift. In some cases, the Wolf effect is indistinguishable from the Doppler (and Cosmological) redshifts.
Now that is interesting. Compared to young matter is lighter I think it's worlds better, I just never thought that theory made any sense, but that's my rather uneducated opinion. And it's based on real actual experiments, which puts it miles ahead of the Hubble law outside of otherwise verifiable distance scales, and that's not just my opinion.
Well, it makes it plausible, but doesn't necessarily change its likelihood as the actual cause. And I haven't even mentioned the hypothetical "plasma redshift". However, most intrinsic and "tired light" redshifts are dismissed on the grounds that they are all thought to cause scattering.

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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by webolife » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:45 am

Ian said,
"We know for sure that redshift can be caused by the Doppler effect, and also by the Wolf effect, as these have been demonstrated in the laboratory."

Ian, can you cite a reference for a demonstraton of Doppler redshift?
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by iantresman » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:50 am

webolife wrote:
iantresman wrote:Ian said,
"We know for sure that redshift can be caused by the Doppler effect, and also by the Wolf effect, as these have been demonstrated in the laboratory."
Ian, can you cite a reference for a demonstraton of Doppler redshift?
Now you have me worried. How about:

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Re: Question about dynamos and redshift

Unread post by webolife » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:19 pm

Couldn't retrieve either of those articles, but couldn't help noticing the dates... :P
My finding is that redshift is NOT a Doppler phenomenon. Sansbury deals well with this in my opinion.
I realize not everyone here is comfortable with Ralph Sansbury's work, but I came to this conclusion about 20 years ago, before ever hearing of Sansbury. I repeat what I've said in numerous posts, my assertion that light action is instantaneous across distance, in agreement with Sansbury's finding of a short delay (up to 1 sec.) of electron polarization occurring with the incidence of light. I worked for a short time with a surveyor, who insisted that his instrument was somehow detecting the delay of light across the distance of a hundred yards or so from the mirror at the other end of our sight line. "How do you know this?", I asked. He replied, "That's what they tell me..." I was friendly with the guy, so I didn't demand to know who "they" were. Further questioning, however, revealed that the angular aspect of reflection determines the precise distance. Sansbury's discussion of Romer's light speed calculation brings up this same issue. Light cannot reflect on the same line it incides, due to vector cancelation. Furthermore, Doppler descriptions of light and all current wave models for light assume Young's alleged 2-slit "proofs" of light waving, and depend on Young's interference explanation, which can be simply and absolutely be demolished with simple replicative experiments. On the other thread topic, my discomfort with "dynamos" rises from the need to apply imaginary numbers to the solutions of reversal equations based on Faraday's disk. If there is a different dynamo model out there that requires no imaginary constructs to make it work, I'd be interested in hearing about it. Reversals seem much more simply explained by EU hypotheses, which I'm still learning, and not so familiar as to be able to expound.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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