Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

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Mr_Majestic
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Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by Mr_Majestic » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:30 pm

The title of this topic sums it up quite nicely.

Ellipses added.
The sun is nearly the roundest object ever measured. If scaled to the size of a beach ball, it would be so round that the difference between the widest and narrow diameters would be much less than the width of a human hair...

...They also found that the solar flattening is remarkably constant over time and too small to agree with that predicted from its surface rotation. This suggests that other subsurface forces, like solar magnetism or turbulence, may be a more powerful influence than expected.

Kuhn, the team leader and first author of an article published Aug. 16 in Science Express, said, "For years we've believed our fluctuating measurements were telling us that the sun varies, but these new results say something different. While just about everything else in the sun changes along with its 11-year sunspot cycle, the shape doesn't."
So what does this discovery mean for the Electric Universe? Is this a sign that external electrical energy reaches the Sun from all angles? I'm still a layman when it comes to all this so a better explanation from someone more versed in these matters would be great.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by sjw40364 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:44 pm

Yah, just read that article, came here to post it :)

I think it says the Sun's shape is controlled more by the interaction of the fundamental charges it contains. The earth is relatively solid, so spin affects it more, but plasma is controlled more by the charges that make it up it being a more fluid (so to speak) environment. It's size and shape more depends on the current entering and exiting and whether it is relatively constant. Surface and sub-surface turbulence has little effect on the currents entering our sun.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by nick c » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:45 am

The key here is that the gravitational paradigm demands that the Sun be an oblate spheroid due to a relatively rapid rotation. The fact that it possesses a near perfect spherical shape shows that other (EM) forces override gravitational effects.
This was pointed out by Velikovsky in 1946:
Because of its swift rotation, the gaseous sun should have the latitudinal axis greater than the longitudinal, but it does not have it. The sun is one million times larger than the earth, and its day is but twenty-six times longer than the terrestrial day; the swiftness of its rotation at its equator is over 125 km. per minute; at the poles, the velocity approaches zero. Yet the solar disk is not oval but round: the majority of observers even find a small excess in the longitudinal axis of the sun.(16) The planets act in the same manner as the rotation of the sun, imposing a latitudinal pull on the luminary.

Gravitation that acts in all directions equally leaves unexplained the spherical shape of the sun. As we saw in the preceding section, the gases of the solar atmosphere are not under a strong pressure, but under a very weak one. Therefore, the computation, according to which the ellipsoidity of the sun, that is lacking, should be slight, is not correct either. Since the gases are under a very low gravitational pressure, the centrifugal force of rotation must have formed quite a flat sun.

Near the polar regions of the sun, streamers of the corona are observed, which prolong still more the axial length of the sun.

http://www.varchive.org/ce/cosmos.htm

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by PersianPaladin » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:29 pm

At what point are these people going to realise that the role of gravity in terms of the sun's behaviour and rotation - is virtually zero?

Given the tremendous electrical forces from the surface and many miles outward - it really begs the question as to the influence of gravity vs EM. The empirical evidence so far, suggests that EM enhances the force of gravity (although scientists don't know how). The cause of maximum rotation at the equator of the sun seems to be the result of secondary magnetic fields from the polar currents. The planar orientation of solar-system bodies with the equator of the sun suggests that planetary rotation may well be more to do with electrical forces than gravitation. The presence of an azimuthal ring-current stemming out from the sun is another clue.

http://www.commonsensescience.org/pdf/a ... _v11n4.pdf

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by sjw40364 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:07 pm

PersianPaladin wrote:At what point are these people going to realise that the role of gravity in terms of the sun's behaviour and rotation - is virtually zero?

Given the tremendous electrical forces from the surface and many miles outward - it really begs the question as to the influence of gravity vs EM. The empirical evidence so far, suggests that EM enhances the force of gravity (although scientists don't know how). The cause of maximum rotation at the equator of the sun seems to be the result of secondary magnetic fields from the polar currents. The planar orientation of solar-system bodies with the equator of the sun suggests that planetary rotation may well be more to do with electrical forces than gravitation. The presence of an azimuthal ring-current stemming out from the sun is another clue.

http://www.commonsensescience.org/pdf/a ... _v11n4.pdf
About the same time that they realize it is not a controlled nuclear event. Let's say about 4 years, unless they let the data out sooner?

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/rbsp/ ... phere.html

There will soon be enough data that only the truly religious fanatic will be able to deny that it is an Electric Universe!

Part 2 out yet?

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by PersianPaladin » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:49 pm

sjw40364 wrote:
PersianPaladin wrote:At what point are these people going to realise that the role of gravity in terms of the sun's behaviour and rotation - is virtually zero?

Given the tremendous electrical forces from the surface and many miles outward - it really begs the question as to the influence of gravity vs EM. The empirical evidence so far, suggests that EM enhances the force of gravity (although scientists don't know how). The cause of maximum rotation at the equator of the sun seems to be the result of secondary magnetic fields from the polar currents. The planar orientation of solar-system bodies with the equator of the sun suggests that planetary rotation may well be more to do with electrical forces than gravitation. The presence of an azimuthal ring-current stemming out from the sun is another clue.

http://www.commonsensescience.org/pdf/a ... _v11n4.pdf
About the same time that they realize it is not a controlled nuclear event. Let's say about 4 years, unless they let the data out sooner?

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/rbsp/ ... phere.html

There will soon be enough data that only the truly religious fanatic will be able to deny that it is an Electric Universe!

Part 2 out yet?
Parts 2 and 3 are available here:-

http://www.commonsensescience.org/pdf/a ... _v12n1.pdf
http://www.commonsensescience.org/pdf/a ... _v12n2.pdf

Notice the interesting finding about toroidal orbits, i.e from part 3 :-

"The electrodynamic theory of gravity appears to be the only theory of gravity able
to explain the tilting of the orbits of the planets with respect to the equatorial
plane of the sun and the quantization of these orbits. In contrast Newton’s
Universal Law of Gravitation and Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity predict
that the orbits of all the planets of the sun should lie totally in the equatorial plane
of the sun and there is no quantization of orbits due to gravity."

You can see the spiral-like effect here, reflective of the orbit around a toriod cross-section:-

http://physics.uoregon.edu/~jimbrau/Bra ... 06_05b.jpg

The ring-current around Saturn is toroidal:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ring_ ... ssini).jpg


What's also interesting to me is whether there is even a need for subatomic gravitational theory to explain planetary orbits when we have verification of magnetic fields exceeding the speed of light:-

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/obs ... n-pulsars/

"For simple geometric reasons, beyond a certain distance from the star, the magnetic field sweeps through the atmosphere at faster than light."


More questions here, of course.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by sjw40364 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:18 pm

I got no problem with ftl, c is just the speed that protons, electrons, neutrons, photons and other massive particles cannot exceed. But the magnetic and electrical fields are not made of these, else we would already know what electric and magnetic fields were made of. I am still partial to polarization of a dielectric, but not opposed to possible speeds orders of magnitude faster than c either. Will get back on that after I study the paper.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by PersianPaladin » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:19 am

sjw40364 wrote:I got no problem with ftl, c is just the speed that protons, electrons, neutrons, photons and other massive particles cannot exceed. But the magnetic and electrical fields are not made of these, else we would already know what electric and magnetic fields were made of. I am still partial to polarization of a dielectric, but not opposed to possible speeds orders of magnitude faster than c either. Will get back on that after I study the paper.
This begs the question; given that so much of space consists of field-aligned currents; does that prevent particles from being as fast as the field? The pulsars (which have been claimed to emit FTL fields) emit pulses of jets at rapid speed in a focussed beam similar to that of a dense plasma-focus. The key here is to ask where the faster-than-light fields begin and end on the pulsar, and whether they are associated with specific radial double-layer zones on the outer part of the jets. Lots of questions to still answer.

Personally, I think there is still a possibility of FTL currents.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by PersianPaladin » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:41 am

Of course, when they realise that magnetic fields can travel faster than light - and thus convey energy at such a speed; it really begs the following questions:-

Is light a wave or a particle or both? Do photons even exist?

Is light just a particular frequency of electromagnetic energy without being composed of point-particles?

I'd say that light is just another EM wave that can carry energy. This wave does not dictate the speed of other EM waves - e.g. FTL radio-waves.

The idea of non-existent "photons" dictating a cosmic speed-limit for all matter - is an unproven imposition. Matter itself may well flow within these FTL fields, but then it brings up questions about how much inertia is present and needs to be overcome to get elementary particles to exceed the light-wave speed.
Last edited by PersianPaladin on Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by Osmosis » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:49 am

Could it be that so-called "photons' are really plasmoids, travelling beams of RF energy? :o

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by PersianPaladin » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:59 am

Osmosis wrote:Could it be that so-called "photons' are really plasmoids, travelling beams of RF energy? :o

Osmosis
Hmm....

Maybe.

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by Michael Mozina » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:11 am

Mr_Majestic wrote:The title of this topic sums it up quite nicely.
...They also found that the solar flattening is remarkably constant over time and too small to agree with that predicted from its surface rotation. This suggests that other subsurface forces, like solar magnetism or turbulence, may be a more powerful influence than expected.
And here's the "assumption" that becomes questionable:
The sun rotates every 28 days, and because it doesn't have a solid surface, it should be slightly flattened.
Of course if their assumption about it being nothing but plasma is false, and it does have a solid surface, those results make perfect sense. :) It's interesting how many "quantified predictions" of standard theory have been blow out of the water by SDO. The mainstream is now between a rock and a hard place because of SDO. Not only does it demonstrate that the convection speed of the sun is too slow to prevent mass separation, it demonstrates that pretty much *all* of their "assumptions" about the sun are false.

Nowhere is that more obvious that LMSAL's claims about the location of the base of coronal loops which LMSAL claims is about 1200KM *above* the photosphere. That's pure baloney as the 1600A and 1700A SDO images now demonstrate.

SDO shows the effect the coronal loops have of the surface of the photosphere as they rise up and through, and flow back into that surface. The patterns of magnetism on the surface of the photosphere that are caused by the current in the loops, also match up perfectly with the "bright points" seen in 1600A and 1700A, demonstrating a cause/effect link between the loops and the bright areas on that surface.

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/sdo/mfield.mp4
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/image ... mi-171.mp4
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/image ... 00-131.mp4

The first image shows the magnetic field alignments on the surface of the photosphere using the HMI gear on SDO, overlaid with two iron ion wavelengths, 171A and 193A. What you'll observe is that the surface of the photosphere is black and white only in the areas where the largest loops are located, and those N/S alignments occur right along the trajectory of the loops, exactly as predicted by a subsurface origin of the loops. The second example demonstrates that this alignment occurs in other iron on wavelengths as predicted as well.

The third image is an SDO HMI continuum (white light) image overlaid with a 171A wavelength. You'll notice that the loops tend to flow right down along the penumbral filaments in this image, at exactly the right angles *if* (and only if) the loops are actually descending down into the photosphere. The orientation of 171 loops with the penumbral filaments is certainly no coincidence, it's directly related the orientation of the penumbral filaments. Again, this image is completely consistent with the transition region/subsurface stratification layer being located far under the photosphere. The alignment of the loops the penumbral filament angles would be meaningless if the loops were located a further 1200KM above the photosphere as LMSAL claims.

Pretty much every major prediction that I made related to coronal loop activity, based on very limited SOHO resolution imagery, has now been confirmed in 16 megapixel, high cadence, SDO images. It's not surprising then that many of their other "assumptions" about the composition of the sun and it's convection rates are falling apart as well. Technology is now their worst enemy. :)

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by viscount aero » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:24 pm

nick c wrote:The key here is that the gravitational paradigm demands that the Sun be an oblate spheroid due to a relatively rapid rotation. The fact that it possesses a near perfect spherical shape shows that other (EM) forces override gravitational effects.
exactly

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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by kiwi » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:41 pm


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Re: Sun's Almost Perfectly Round Shape Baffles Scientists

Post by Lloyd » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:40 pm

* Space.com says at http://www.space.com/17001-how-big-is-t ... e-sun.html that "The sun is nearly a perfect sphere. Its equatorial diameter and its polar diameter differ by only 6.2 miles (10 km)." Is that the new finding? I assume the polar diameter is the smaller one. The Earth's equatorial and polar diameters differ by 27 miles [43 km].
Questions for Michael
* Michael, you and Brant agree that the Sun is probably solid iron under the photosphere. But isn't the conventional diameter of the Sun taken from the top of the photosphere. You say the solid surface is over 4,000 km below the photosphere and Brant says it's 600 km below.
* It seems to me that it must be electrical properties that account for the roundness of the photosphere, since the photosphere itself isn't solid. Otherwise, wouldn't the top of the photosphere be expected to be more oblate due to the Sun's rotation?
* If Earth is oblate even though it's solid, why would the Sun be rounder than the Earth, if it's solid under the photosphere?

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