Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 years"

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phyllotaxis
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Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 years"

Post by phyllotaxis » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:22 am

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/ ... isappears/

This is only a shock to billion-year evolution-by-gravity mouth-breathers...

excerpt
Some 460 light-years away in the constellation Centaurus, a thick disk of dust swirled around a young star named TYC 8241 2652 1, where rocky planets like our own were arising. Then, in less than 2 years, the disk just vanished. That’s the unprecedented observation astronomers report in a new study, out today. Even more intriguing: The same thing may have happened in our own solar system.

Born about 10 million years ago, the TYC 8241 2652 1 system was chugging along just fine before 2009. Its so-called circumstellar disk glowed at the infrared wavelength of 10 microns, indicating it was warm and lay close to a star — in the same sort of region that, in our own sun’s neighborhood, gave rise to the terrestrial planets Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars. The infrared data reveal that the dust was about 180°C and located as close to its star as Mercury is to the sun.

By January 2010, however, nearly all infrared light from the dusty disk had vanished. “We had never seen anything like this before,” says astronomer Carl Melis of the University of California, San Diego. “We were all scratching our heads and wondering what the hell did we do wrong?” But subsequent observations with both infrared satellites and ground-based telescopes confirmed the surprising discovery, he says: “The disk was gone.”

Melis and his colleagues report the mystery online today in Nature — but they don’t know what caused it. “It’s very bizarre,” he says. “Nothing like this was ever predicted.” He says there’s no way something could eclipse the infrared-emitting disk for more than 2 years, because such an object would be immense. Furthermore, the star itself didn’t fade.

Melis speculates that an earlier collision between two objects — perhaps two boulders, two asteroids, or even two planets — orbiting the star produced the dust grains that emitted the infrared light. Then either the star’s light blew the dust out of the planetary system or the dust plunged into the star.

“It’s a really interesting mystery,” says astronomer Scott Kenyon of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Massachusetts, who was not affiliated with the discovery team. “The observations certainly seem correct. It’s sort of amazing to have the dust in one of these disks go away so quickly. It’s hard to know exactly what happened.”

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by Goldminer » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:01 am

phyllotaxis wrote:http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/ ... isappears/

This is only a shock to billion-year evolution-by-gravity mouth-breathers
Those mouth-breathers: they still pick their noses in public! No couth at all.
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by celeste » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:05 am

"Melis speculates that an earlier collision between two objects — perhaps two boulders, two asteroids, or even two planets — orbiting the star produced the dust grains that emitted the infrared light. Then either the star’s light blew the dust out of the planetary system or the dust plunged into the star."

I love it! two rocks smash together and make a lot of dust, then the dust either blows away or falls down. Only the greatest scientific minds could come up with such a theory. While it's absurd to apply that theory here, you have to give the mainstream credit. They finally came up with a theory that can be duplicated in the lab!

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by 303vegas » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:20 am

taking the mickey aside, what would be the explanation for this in an EU context? it's not good enough to just point and laugh. that, my friends, is the behaviour of the likes of the cox-ince nexus.
love from lancashire!

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by celeste » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:25 am

I have a question. Can we explain this by dethermalization in the disk, without seeing a major change in the star itself?
As you know, they haven't measured any angular or radial velocity changes of the disk (or they would be telling us whether the dust fell into or was blown off the star). So there is no evidence the dust went anywhere. We just know the infrared decreased, meaning either the dust cooled down (and then where did the heat go?),or it was dethermalized by an increase in electric field strength. So again I'll ask: does anyone know if/how it is possible to have a change in electric field at the disk, without seeing an apparent change in stellar evolution at the same time?

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by celeste » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:57 am

303vegas wrote:taking the mickey aside, what would be the explanation for this in an EU context? it's not good enough to just point and laugh. that, my friends, is the behaviour of the likes of the cox-ince nexus.
303vegas, you are right. I should actually be thanking them for the data. Now here is what we know: in general, when the mainstream sees a decrease in thermal energy (as measured by infrared radiation),they are able to explain it with conventional means. When they can't, that is a clue for us to look for dethermalization. The mainstream knows how dethermalization occurs (it's just the random motion of molecules we see as heat,gets lined up along field lines). The problem is that since they do not believe that electric fields occur on such scales, they obviously do not look for dethermalization on such scales. This is what I suspect is happening here.

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by viscount aero » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:05 pm

They say: "Some 460 light-years away in the constellation Centaurus, a thick disk of dust swirled around a young star named TYC 8241 2652 1, where rocky planets like our own were arising. Then, in less than 2 years, the disk just vanished. That’s the unprecedented observation astronomers report in a new study, out today. Even more intriguing: The same thing may have happened in our own solar system."

The same thing may have happened in our own solar system? Oh?

They say: "Born about 10 million years ago, the TYC 8241 2652 1 system was chugging along just fine before 2009. Its so-called circumstellar disk glowed at the infrared wavelength of 10 microns, indicating it was warm and lay close to a star — in the same sort of region that, in our own sun’s neighborhood, gave rise to the terrestrial planets Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars. The infrared data reveal that the dust was about 180°C and located as close to its star as Mercury is to the sun."

The age of the disk is known?

they say: "By January 2010, however, nearly all infrared light from the dusty disk had vanished. “We had never seen anything like this before,” says astronomer Carl Melis of the University of California, San Diego. “We were all scratching our heads and wondering what the hell did we do wrong?” But subsequent observations with both infrared satellites and ground-based telescopes confirmed the surprising discovery, he says: “The disk was gone.”

They're wondering what they did wrong? Are they really?

they say: "Melis and his colleagues report the mystery online today in Nature — but they don’t know what caused it. “It’s very bizarre,” he says. “Nothing like this was ever predicted.” He says there’s no way something could eclipse the infrared-emitting disk for more than 2 years, because such an object would be immense. Furthermore, the star itself didn’t fade."

But because nothing like this was ever predicted, though, they do not question their own theory of solar system creation. Instead they assume something must have "eclipsed" the disk.

they say: "Melis speculates that an earlier collision between two objects — perhaps two boulders, two asteroids, or even two planets — orbiting the star produced the dust grains that emitted the infrared light. Then either the star’s light blew the dust out of the planetary system or the dust plunged into the star."

This sounds very reaching of an idea and akin to pure fantasy. Too many things are assumed to have happened for this scenario to be remotely plausible. To posit that "two boulders..." may have collided to have caused the infrared radiation is laughably ridiculous.

they say: “It’s a really interesting mystery,” says astronomer Scott Kenyon of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Massachusetts, who was not affiliated with the discovery team. “The observations certainly seem correct. It’s sort of amazing to have the dust in one of these disks go away so quickly. It’s hard to know exactly what happened.”

Yes it is merely an "interesting mystery" that they will move along past and forget. Their foundational theories will remain unchallenged even as they have been directly challenged by this observation as nothing today can falsify their theories.

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by phyllotaxis » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:16 pm

viscount-- you share my sentiments precisely...

Goldminer, I hope you weren't offended by my metaphorical description of the unthinking-ness displayed (and broken down by viscount above) in the article

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by willo » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:51 pm

I also came across a news article about this this morning:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/05 ... isappears/

It makes me wonder if this is a secondary, torus current that moved from a glow-discharge to a dark-discharge mode?

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by Goldminer » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:08 pm

Phyllotaxis wrote:Goldminer, I hope you weren't offended by my metaphorical description of the unthinking-ness displayed (and broken down by viscount above) in the article
The converse, mouth breathers get on my nerves. So do these pompous "authorities." Next I suppose, I'll be hunted down and sent to anger management. If you want to see anger, be there for that!
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by phyllotaxis » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:14 pm

You know what bugs me though isn't the theories these people espouse- science is about exploring possibilities-- it's the uniform assertion- no, command- that the statements like these - the black holes and gravity wells and redshift distance calculations and time dimensions and light behaviors etc... are FACT, which buttress and confirm all their other underlying FACTS (standard model), revealing that everything they KNOW is FACT, and that what they don't know is IMPLIED by their FACTS- and therefore can safely be declared as Facts-To-Be.

And if you don't believe them? Or even present alternative explanations?

You are simply stupid.

You're like someone who says the sky isn't blue-- or more exactly, that the sky isn't the sky!

Because, of course, everyone KNOWS that LEGITIMATE science has ALREADY discovered the correct path (standard model), and you just aren't smart enough to have wised up and acknowledged the(ir) truth.

It's almost as though these propaganda releases via academia and media have specifically fashioned science to be so confusing, counter-intuitive, and mysterious that many curious, smart minds are dissuaded from looking in any further than High-school level instruction.
They are told from the start: we (Big Science) already know 96% of everything- and we're now at the hard part: mathematically forcing and stretching the last 4% to cover the bizarre and misbehaving infinities that we can't seem to explain- those which in some cases flatly contradict what we already KNOW to be true.
So it's just a big funny mystery to solve--figuring out that trickster 4%. And that'll cost trillions to model. Fuuuuun, right?

They want a public audience- NOT a public interest. You can watch in amazement--but don't dare interrupt the adults with your comments about the man visible behind the curtain. You be entertained without questions like a good tax slave. The thinly disguised sentiment oozes from their religious adulation over Higgs God particles and infinite masses in non-existent points. It's a show. An act.

Moving on, note that I mentioned curious minds above -- not just smart ones-- there are plenty of 'smart' people in the sciences...but truly curious minds?
I wager there are shockingly few expansive, creative, curious intellects active in official science. They call BS far too quickly.
Those that are desired and accepted are like smart rats, robotically following mazes built -sometimes on the fly- by previous rats hailed as titans of the paradigm.
It never occurs to any of them to stand up and look around the room to see what else might show them the way. In fact, they are violently hostile to those that rock their intricate little card table.

Sheesh-- is it any wonder the sciences are stagnant, inbred, confrontational, and insular?
Casual observers (that don't dig for competing truths) see the sciences as tarot card readers with grant money.
At least tarot card readers make an honest living.

I've talked enough on this-- forgive the length.
On the bright side, the knowledge that is being discovered and reinforced by real innovators and researchers will bury them all in the embarrassment file of history :D

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by viscount aero » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:15 pm

here is something I want to revisit after re-reading it --when they say: “It’s a really interesting mystery,” says astronomer Scott Kenyon of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Massachusetts, who was not affiliated with the discovery team. “The observations certainly seem correct. It’s sort of amazing to have the dust in one of these disks go away so quickly. It’s hard to know exactly what happened.”

I emphasized the sentence above in question. Let us really pay attention to this: "The observations certainly seem correct." LOL Oh? They do? But isn't there is a hint of doubt in his tone --about what they "seem" to be observing? Why? Is it because the observations don't correlate with their theories? But they cannot have that, so instead of doubting their theory, they doubt what they are seeing.

What happens in the scientific method when observations do not correlate with a theory? Can anyone here take a wild guess? Did the astronomer have any notion that maybe because the observations do not fit his theory that his theory may be --- may be what? Anyone care to guess?

:lol:

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by viscount aero » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:17 pm

phyllotaxis wrote:You know what bugs me though isn't the theories these people espouse- science is about exploring possibilities-- it's the uniform assertion- no, command- that the statements like these - the black holes and gravity wells and redshift distance calculations and time dimensions and light behaviors etc... are FACT, which buttress and confirm all their other underlying FACTS (standard model), revealing that everything they KNOW is FACT, and that what they don't know is IMPLIED by their FACTS- and therefore can safely be declared as Facts-To-Be.

And if you don't believe them? Or even present alternative explanations?

You are simply stupid.

You're like someone who says the sky isn't blue-- or more exactly, that the sky isn't the sky!

Because, of course, everyone KNOWS that LEGITIMATE science has ALREADY discovered the correct path (standard model), and you just aren't smart enough to have wised up and acknowledged the(ir) truth.

It's almost as though these propaganda releases via academia and media have specifically fashioned science to be so confusing, counter-intuitive, and mysterious that many curious, smart minds are dissuaded from looking in any further than High-school level instruction.
They are told from the start: we (Big Science) already know 96% of everything- and we're now at the hard part: mathematically forcing and stretching the last 4% to cover the bizarre and misbehaving infinities that we can't seem to explain- those which in some cases flatly contradict what we already KNOW to be true.
So it's just a big funny mystery to solve--figuring out that trickster 4%. And that'll cost trillions to model. Fuuuuun, right?

They want a public audience- NOT a public interest. You can watch in amazement--but don't dare interrupt the adults with your comments about the man visible behind the curtain. You be entertained without questions like a good tax slave. The thinly disguised sentiment oozes from their religious adulation over Higgs God particles and infinite masses in non-existent points. It's a show. An act.

Moving on, note that I mentioned curious minds above -- not just smart ones-- there are plenty of 'smart' people in the sciences...but truly curious minds?
I wager there are shockingly few expansive, creative, curious intellects active in official science. They call BS far too quickly.
Those that are desired and accepted are like smart rats, robotically following mazes built -sometimes on the fly- by previous rats hailed as titans of the paradigm.
It never occurs to any of them to stand up and look around the room to see what else might show them the way. In fact, they are violently hostile to those that rock their intricate little card table.

Sheesh-- is it any wonder the sciences are stagnant, inbred, confrontational, and insular?
Casual observers (that don't dig for competing truths) see the sciences as tarot card readers with grant money.
At least tarot card readers make an honest living.

I've talked enough on this-- forgive the length.
On the bright side, the knowledge that is being discovered and reinforced by real innovators and researchers will bury them all in the embarrassment file of history :D
+1000

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by viscount aero » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:20 pm

willo wrote:I also came across a news article about this this morning:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/05 ... isappears/

It makes me wonder if this is a secondary, torus current that moved from a glow-discharge to a dark-discharge mode?
I was thinking the same thing. My analogy is a light switch. You turn it on, the light comes on. You turn it down, the light goes off. In this case the stellar system "turned the current off." There are billions of such "electric lamps" throughout the cosmos. This is but one.

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Re: Scientist shock:"planet-forming disk disappeared in 2 ye

Post by viscount aero » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:20 pm

phyllotaxis wrote:viscount-- you share my sentiments precisely...
right on, thanks :D

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