So, for a single wire, with no insulator, just air, the velocity of propagation will be the same as the velocity of light through air, and the material the wire (conductor) is made of will have no affect on the VOP. Is this correct?"electricity" "flows" in the "insulator"..... heresy!!
If you will look at the chart, there is a relationship as to size of conductor. AWG 19 is a bit faster than AWG 26. Also, the largish 7/8" and 1 5/8" coax comes in at 99, while 4 1/2" flexwall is best in it's group at 97.-the conductor has very little to do with the "speed".
why the vop is so dielectric dependent, i don't know.The VOP number of a cable is determined by the dielectric material that separates the two conductors
no....there is a chart, and the highest vop is a 99, using a large conductor.So, for a single wire, with no insulator, just air, the velocity of propagation will be the same as the velocity of light through air, and the material the wire (conductor) is made of will have no affect on the VOP. Is this correct?
Like a microwaveguidemjv1121 wrote:Jarvamundo,
So, for a single wire, with no insulator, just air, the velocity of propagation will be the same as the velocity of light through air, and the material the wire (conductor) is made of will have no affect on the VOP. Is this correct?"electricity" "flows" in the "insulator"..... heresy!!
Michael
"charge appears out of no where"These wires are not solid conductors.sparky wrote:If you will look at the chart, there is a relationship as to size of conductor. AWG 19 is a bit faster than AWG 26. Also, the largish 7/8" and 1 5/8" coax comes in at 99, while 4 1/2" flexwall is best in it's group at 97.
1st, i can't do vids....Jarvamundo wrote:Like a microwaveguidemjv1121 wrote:Jarvamundo,
So, for a single wire, with no insulator, just air, the velocity of propagation will be the same as the velocity of light through air, and the material the wire (conductor) is made of will have no affect on the VOP. Is this correct?"electricity" "flows" in the "insulator"..... heresy!!
Michael
Turns out a sign of this waveguide finds it's place on high speed digital circuits with tiny thin wires. See "The Catt Anomaly", i believe an NPA talk is around the corner
These wires are not solid conductors.sparky wrote:If you will look at the chart, there is a relationship as to size of conductor. AWG 19 is a bit faster than AWG 26. Also, the largish 7/8" and 1 5/8" coax comes in at 99, while 4 1/2" flexwall is best in it's group at 97.
The bigger the wire the more surface area is available to the dielectric-metallic union. It is found that surface area, not volume is the key factor. (big difference).... and why you'll find thin stranded conductors, or "planes" such as in coax, or horns.
So hows about that glass beaker, where be the trons.
-the cable's characteristic impedance is tied to its inductance and capacitance, and wire gage affects both of these because the center conductor must be in proper proportion to the other physical dimensions of the cable. If we stick a 16 AWG conductor into the center of an RG-6 cable where an 18 AWG conductor belongs, we wind up with our characteristic impedance too low; if we stuck a 20 AWG conductor in that same spot, characteristic impedance would be too high. So, while there may be no strong consideration affecting the specific choice of wire gage in most applications, it is nonetheless important that all of the cable's internal dimensions be in the right proportions to one another, and that includes the gage of the center conductor.-----the really important attribute of a cable is its characteristic impedance. Here, we're not dealing with coaxial cable, but with twisted pairs, where characteristic impedance is much harder to control and is liable to change significantly from one inch to the next.----The frequencies in use here do an interesting thing to the significance of wire gage, which requires a bit of three-dimensional thinking to understand. In a 1.485 Gbps bitstream, our fundamental frequency is normally considered to be about half that bitrate, or 742.5 MHz, and because we're trying to convey some harmonics of that fundamental frequency to keep our bit edges from rounding off too much to be recognized by the receiving circuit, the bandwidth required to handle that is about three times that frequency, or 2.2275 GHz. Remember "skin effect"? Well, whether we're talking about 742 MHz or 2.2 GHz, skin effect at these frequencies is extreme. There is essentially no signal flowing through the middle of an HDMI cable conductor--it is all skimming the surface. What that means to wire gage is that an increase in size is no longer as significant as it would be at lower frequencies, because the increase in wire surface area is proportional to diameter rather than to the square of diameter. Let's consider, say, the difference between a 24 and a 22 AWG cable. If we were buying 24 or 22 AWG wire for DC power, and wanted to know how much loss we'd see in a run, we'd be interested primarily in the cross-sectional area. A 24 AWG wire has a circular mil area of 404; a 22 AWG wire has a circular mil area of 640.4. Since DC resistance is inversely proportional to this area, this makes a big difference--the resistance of the 22 AWG wire is a bit less than 2/3 the resistance of the 24, for any given distance.
But if we're looking at skin effect, the picture changes. The cross-sectional area is practically irrelevant because the "skin depth" is next to nothing. Instead of cross-sectional area, loss to resistance is going to be inversely proportional to the amount of copper through which the signal actually passes--that is, it's going to be inversely proportional to the cable's surface area--or, speaking in cross-sectional terms, its perimeter. A 24 AWG wire has a diameter of .0201 inch, and a 22 AWG wire has a diameter of .0253 inch. Since the perimeters are simply these numbers each multiplied by pi, we can see the ratio of perimeters without doing that multiplication. The 22 AWG is "bigger" than the 24 by .0253/.0201, or a factor of 1.259. When we were concerned with area of the cross-section rather than perimeter, the ratio of circular mils was much steeper: 640.4/404, making the 22 AWG "bigger" by a factor of 1.585. Instead of the use of 22 AWG dropping resistance to about 63% of the 24 AWG wire's resistance, as happens at DC, it drops resistance only to about 80% of the 24 AWG's value.
Now, any reduction in resistance is good; the point here is simply to show that it isn't as good as one might expect. If all else were equal, one would expect 22 AWG HDMI cable to be useful for a distance of about 20% longer than a similar 24 AWG cable (this almost certainly overstates the advantage, because, of course, all else isn't equal. The longer run will show greater performance losses from other factors, including capacitance, crosstalk, skew and return loss).
What that means to wire gage is that an increase in size is no longer as significant as it would be at lower frequencies, because the increase in wire surface area is proportional to diameter rather than to the square of diameter. Let's consider, say, the difference between a 24 and a 22 AWG cable. If we were buying 24 or 22 AWG wire for DC power, and wanted to know how much loss we'd see in a run, we'd be interested primarily in the cross-sectional area. A 24 AWG wire has a circular mil area of 404; a 22 AWG wire has a circular mil area of 640.4. Since DC resistance is inversely proportional to this area, this makes a big difference--the resistance of the 22 AWG wire is a bit less than 2/3 the resistance of the 24, for any given distance.
But if we're looking at skin effect, the picture changes. The cross-sectional area is practically irrelevant because the "skin depth" is next to nothing. Instead of cross-sectional area, loss to resistance is going to be inversely proportional to the amount of copper through which the signal actually passes--that is, it's going to be inversely proportional to the cable's surface area--or, speaking in cross-sectional terms, its perimeter. A 24 AWG wire has a diameter of .0201 inch, and a 22 AWG wire has a diameter of .0253 inch. Since the perimeters are simply these numbers each multiplied by pi, we can see the ratio of perimeters without doing that multiplication. The 22 AWG is "bigger" than the 24 by .0253/.0201, or a factor of 1.259. When we were concerned with area of the cross-section rather than perimeter, the ratio of circular mils was much steeper: 640.4/404, making the 22 AWG "bigger" by a factor of 1.585. Instead of the use of 22 AWG dropping resistance to about 63% of the 24 AWG wire's resistance, as happens at DC, it drops resistance only to about 80% of the 24 AWG's value.
Now, any reduction in resistance is good; the point here is simply to show that it isn't as good as one might expect. If all else were equal, one would expect 22 AWG HDMI cable to be useful for a distance of about 20% longer than a similar 24 AWG cable (this almost certainly overstates the advantage, because, of course, all else isn't equal. The longer run will show greater performance losses from other factors, including capacitance, crosstalk, skew and return loss).
The cable quality factors that really matter in HDMI cable are, primarily, impedance control on the TMDS pairs (which do the heavy lifting in the HDMI cable), and skew, which is a measure of the difference in electrical length of the conductors and pairs (by "electrical length," we mean the length of the wire, as measured by the time it takes a pulse to travel down the line; this may vary from physical length for a number of reasons, most but not all of which are related to impedance control). These parameters are notoriously difficult to control, and have nothing in particular to do with wire gage except insofar as it is sometimes easier to control tolerances in larger than in smaller cable. So, wire gage means something in HDMI cable; but it is not ordinarily the primary factor in measuring cable quality. A cable with superior return loss and skew can easily outperform a larger cable in a distance run.
You are my man. You proved the existence of aether which is chiralic in nature, electromagnetic nature of gravitation and wave nature of light.Jarvamundo wrote:...And to our horror, it is found the velocity factor is in relation to the surrounding dielectric... and the conductor has very little to do with the "speed".Goldminer wrote:Here is your answer to the speed of signals in conducting cables: Introduction to Time Domain Reflectometry"electricity" "flows" in the "insulator"..... heresy!!The VOP number of a cable is determined by the dielectric material that separates the two conductors
as it does in your TV coax, and as it does here....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... sdUg#t=56s
No electrons to be found? and the MIT student doesn't get "shocked" when picking up the charged beaker? Lazy electrons
Broken balance of aether which is trapped in matter.mjv1121 wrote:What is charge?
The phenomenon which shows you how fast is that imbalance settled.What is current?
The unit which shows you how big is the imbalance compared to its surroundings /benchmark system(?).What is voltage?
The field where is the balance between counterparts broken.What is an electric field?
A phenomenon which is created by a moving imbalance in aether (if is it a charge carrier or a standing wave is in this case irrelevant).What is a magnetic field?
Collective name for several phenomena.What is electricity?
Collective name for at least 2 different phenomena.What is electron?
This i can understand....and better explains the chiralic theory.What is charge?
Oracle:
Broken balance of aether which is trapped in matter.
What is current?
The phenomenon which shows you how fast is that imbalance settled.
Sparky, check out any good quality coax, you'll generally find a metallic COATED with a high quality reflector (conductor).can you explain why less conductive metals require larger conductive areas? i always thought it was due to internal resistance of each metal....
I would be more precise, aether attempting maintain LOCAL pressure, because we don't know the "pressure" for entire universe.Sparky wrote:This i can understand....and better explains the chiralic theory.What is charge?
Oracle:
Broken balance of aether which is trapped in matter.
What is current?
The phenomenon which shows you how fast is that imbalance settled.
so, you are saying it is entropy? aether attempting to equalize and maintain a consistent aether pressure.?
What are normally and customarily referred to as “conductors” are actually ‘Reflectors’, these are the “waveguides.” What are normally and customarily referred to as “insulators” (the dielectric) are the actual “conductors” and have the ability to ‘store’ electric energy within their physical form such as with the “capacitor.” Thus:Sparky wrote:why the vop is so dielectric dependent, i don't know.The VOP number of a cable is determined by the dielectric material that separates the two conductors
I have checked and 2+2 does not equal 5, nor does equal 3, nor does equal 3.5 or 4.5What are normally and customarily referred to as “conductors” are actually ‘Reflectors’, these are the “waveguides.” What are normally and customarily referred to as “insulators” (the dielectric) are the actual “conductors” and have the ability to ‘store’ electric energy within their physical form such as with the “capacitor.” Thus:
“We reverse this; the current in the wire is set up by the energy transmitted through the medium around it.” --Oliver Heaviside, 1850-1925
Close, but no cigar. Yes the field is detectable outside the wire, but the field (the exact same field) is also inside the wire. Inside the wire is where the free electron interactions are taking place as evidenced by the fact that there are detectable E and B fields at all. Inside the wire is also where the fields are strongest. Since we know that electrons emit charge constantly, the fact that initiation of a "current" produces fields hints heavily towards the electrons being aligned to coherently emit charge as the detected fields. Since the emission of charge so obviously affects electron orientation it is hardly surprising that the affect is passed from electron to electron all the way down the wire - like tumbling dominoes. The battery plays the part of priming the circuit - pushing the first domino. When the circuit is broken the electron immediately return to randomness and the coherency that produces the fields collapses.the current in the wire is set up by the energy transmitted through the medium around it.
Well, even though that sounds like nonsense, i am willing to consider recent experiments indicating that.“insulators” (the dielectric) are the actual “conductors” and have the ability to ‘store’ electric energy within their physical form such as with the “capacitor.
jarva-,sparky, can you explain why less conductive metals require larger conductive areas? i always thought it was due to internal resistance of each metal....
well, you sidestepped my question...but seem to think the above quote is a correct perspective."Sparky, check out any good quality coax, you'll generally find a metallic COATED with a high quality reflector (conductor).
Usually this is silver-coated metallic, with a teflon dielectric (insulator).
It is not required to have a full-solid conductor of high quality to 'guide' the EM wave. Higher frequency waves only manage to penetrate the surface of the conductor a few fractions of a mm. This effect is called "the skin effect".
Yes.Is rf E/M, in a waveguide, equal to dc electric current in a low voltage circuit?
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 58 guests