Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

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PersianPaladin
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Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by PersianPaladin » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:58 pm

By Jason Palmer Science and technology reporter, BBC News

Puzzling results from Cern, home of the LHC, have confounded physicists - because it appears subatomic particles have exceeded the speed of light.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484


Too early to confirm yet, but is this really a surprise?

sjw40364
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by sjw40364 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:58 pm

PersianPaladin wrote:
By Jason Palmer Science and technology reporter, BBC News

Puzzling results from Cern, home of the LHC, have confounded physicists - because it appears subatomic particles have exceeded the speed of light.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484


Too early to confirm yet, but is this really a surprise?

Yah was just coming to post one myself on this :)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44629271/ns ... nvmjtSfYkI

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tayga
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by tayga » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:20 am

From the BBC article.
The result - which threatens to upend a century of physics - will be put online for scrutiny by other scientists.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-envir ... a-comments

Anyone care to predict how that's going to go? :roll:

Incidentally, for once the BBC has allowed comments for a Science article (I hope this is in response to my recent criticism of them spoon feeding consensus science to the public). These comments are reactively moderated, i.e. not screened. Do your worst folks!
tayga


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

- Richard P. Feynman

Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
- Thomas Kuhn

mjv1121
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by mjv1121 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:19 am

So neutrinos exist do they? Should I vomit or laugh? First of all SR is bogus, so GR is bogus, so QED/QCD are bogus. Neutrinos do not exist, so any attempt to claim detection of said non-existent particles is nonsense. Also, the source and the detection are separated by 730km of rock.

It is possible that somewhere in the sub-atomic/quantum soup there are manifestations of different types of particle. It is possible that there may be particles with neutrino characteristics. As such my statement that neutrinos do not exist may be in danger. However, the possibility of a neutrinoesque particle is not by any means in agreement with QED.

Furthermore, QED is an invention of relativists. The speed of light, c, is a measured and experimentally confirmed constant. This constant speed has absolutely nothing to do with Special Relativity, and in fact this was Einstein's huge blunder. Photons are always emitted at and travel at the same speed. Einstein created SR to amend this fact to apply to any frame of reference. Thus to him, a FoR travelling at 0.5c would measure the speed of photons as c. This should have been (c - v or c + v) depending on the relative direction of travel. Light travels at c relative to its point of emission, not relative the the emitter, not relative to an arbitrary human observer evolved to use photons as a visual sensory system and most certainly not relative to all and any Frame of Reference.

So, do I have any faith in this whimsical experiment or the theories that spawned it: NO!

Michael

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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by Aardwolf » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:46 am

Michael,

While I agree with the majority of what you state here, I have a minor problem with the following sentence;
mjv1121 wrote:The speed of light, c, is a measured and experimentally confirmed constant.
What experiments for this have been perfomed in the following conditions;

a) In absolute genuine vacuum to ensure the speed is constant at c in "empty space" as it's stated?

b) Free of the the influence of gravity to ensure the speed is constant at c in space in no gravitational field?

Thanks.

sjw40364
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by sjw40364 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:46 am

Aardwolf wrote:What experiments for this have been perfomed in the following conditions;

a) In absolute genuine vacuum to ensure the speed is constant at c in "empty space" as it's stated?
None
b) Free of the the influence of gravity to ensure the speed is constant at c in space in no gravitational field?

Thanks.
None, since no tests have been performed outside the solar system to escape the Sun's gravitational field and outside the galaxy to escape it's field.

The constant speed of light is an assumed constant since we have no direct verifiable proof that it cannot travel faster than c outside of galaxies. I have no problem with the CERN results, they just tend to confirm that gravity may indeed be able to travel faster than c if indeed particles can do so.

I have seen posts on other sites already trying to pass it off to effects such as Cherenkov radiation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation

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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by Aardwolf » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:41 am

sjw40364 wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:What experiments for this have been perfomed in the following conditions;

a) In absolute genuine vacuum to ensure the speed is constant at c in "empty space" as it's stated?
None
b) Free of the the influence of gravity to ensure the speed is constant at c in space in no gravitational field?

Thanks.
None, since no tests have been performed outside the solar system to escape the Sun's gravitational field and outside the galaxy to escape it's field.

The constant speed of light is an assumed constant since we have no direct verifiable proof that it cannot travel faster than c outside of galaxies. I have no problem with the CERN results, they just tend to confirm that gravity may indeed be able to travel faster than c if indeed particles can do so.

I have seen posts on other sites already trying to pass it off to effects such as Cherenkov radiation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation
Ok, then I hope you agree that the speed of light, c, has not as yet been measured and experimentally confirmed constant as no such experiment has yet been made.

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Aristarchus
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by Aristarchus » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:04 am

mjv1121 wrote:Neutrinos do not exist, so any attempt to claim detection of said non-existent particles is nonsense.
What is unclear to me is the parameters used for this experiment, since neutrinos have never been detected in space, but are man-made, which are produced in accelerators. There appears to be more questions than answers, since according to special relativity a massive object can never travel at the speed of light. However, science has also claimed that neutrinos have mass
An object is cut off from its name, habits, associations. Detached, it becomes only the thing, in and of itself. When this disintegration into pure existence is at last achieved, the object is free to become endlessly anything. ~ Jim Morrison

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tayga
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by tayga » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:53 am

mjv1121 wrote:Neutrinos do not exist, so any attempt to claim detection of said non-existent particles is nonsense. Also, the source and the detection are separated by 730km of rock.
I'm pretty much of the opinion that neutrinos are fictitious too. How did you come to that conclusion? That said, the intervention of 730 km of rock wouldn't be a problem if the neutrinos were as posited.
It is possible that there may be particles with neutrino characteristics.
I'm unsure how the events observed in neutrino detectors can be attributed to neutrinos without equivocation. What has been done to rule out all other causes?
tayga


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

- Richard P. Feynman

Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
- Thomas Kuhn

sjw40364
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by sjw40364 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:35 pm

Aardwolf wrote:Ok, then I hope you agree that the speed of light, c, has not as yet been measured and experimentally confirmed constant as no such experiment has yet been made.
Oh I agree totally, and even if you performed such an experiment in our solar system that would only prove that light could travel at that speed in the density of vacuum in our solar system. I am sure no one will disagree that the likelihood of spaces between galaxies and nebulae being as dense a vacuum as that inside a galaxy in our solar system is rather a slim basis to claim any such top speed upon. I am willing to bet that spaces between galaxies and nebulae is less dense than that in our solar system. And as we know the speed light travels is affected by density of particles. And as for it being constant, well then that would rule out blue and red shift, so either those are false or light is not constant.

mjv1121
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by mjv1121 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:59 pm

Aardwolf,

The sceptic in me is aware of and agrees with your points. However, the apparent constant velocity of photons/light-waves pre-dates relativistic and quantum theory, so the concept is not biased by contemporary theory. That the velocity appears unaffected by the motion of the emitter is also not a relativistic concept. As to whether we can trust the experimental evidence and/or have skewed readings based our particular position in the universe, can only be a matter of speculation. I would invoke this degree of doubt to be a caveat.

(In fact, I think even the simplest measurements are based on a send and reflect, so would involve at least one absorption and re-emission. )

Aristarchus,

Neutrinos have not been detected in space because there are no neutrino detectors in space. Neutrinos are not, and to be fair, cannot, be detected directly. They are detected by inference - a particular infrequent reaction takes place in the detector and neutrinos are assigned to be the cause. All neutrinos type particles are going to be a bugger to detect. I think the latest estimates on neutrinos mass put an upper limit of around 10^-40kg.

tayga,

I realise the rock is not necessarily a problem to real neutrinos (a light-year of lead (Pb) could theoretically be traversed). My point in mentioning it was by way of highlighting that it is a further obstacle to attributing detections "to neutrinos without equivocation" and furthermore, to the specifically emitted neutrinos. Also, they should think themselves lucky that the emitted neutrinos didn't change flavour en route - although that only usually happens when it's convenient.
My stance that neutrinos are fictitious is somewhat unscientific. I am unhappy with the entire zoo of made-for-the-job particles. I remain open minded that perhaps some particle accelerator noise is the detection of genuine particles, but I remain unreceptive to the "built on false premise and inherited from authority" logic of quantum mechanics. Neutrinos, I am afraid are "tarred with the same brush" - as I said, not completely scientific, but I see far too little science, let alone physics, in "Modern Physics".


Michael

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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by +EyeOn-W-ANeed2Know » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:23 pm

Another one to this is
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15034414

I got a few a giggle at
"The speed of light is the cornerstone in Einstein's theory of special relativity, which is what gives us the concept of causality: causes precede effects, wherever you are.

Remove that requirement, and time becomes a much more fluid thing than the one-way arrow we think it to be.
If an effect can precede a cause, showers of neutrons might arrive here on Earth before a supernova actually kicks off on the other side of the galaxy."

:lol:
Even when one of their own starts pulling out the anchor pins, some still think they can walk across the "fabric of spacetime" without getting tripped up.
Yes, causes precede effects, wherever you are.
Just because St. Einstein's concept of it was off, does NOT invalidate reality.
Of course, there's the attempted save
"Einstein may not have been wrong if we concede that there are extra dimensions of space that particles can nip into and out of, and some theories have already been around a while that suggest it."

I can't help but wonder which version of hyperspace is this going to be?

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MrAmsterdam
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:33 pm

http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressRel ... 9.11E.html

The OPERA result is based on the observation of over 15000 neutrino events measured at Gran Sasso, and appears to indicate that the neutrinos travel at a velocity 20 parts per million above the speed of light, nature’s cosmic speed limit.
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The distance between the origin of the neutrino beam and OPERA was measured with an uncertainty of 20 cm over the 730 km travel path. The neutrinos’ time of flight was determined with an accuracy of less than 10 nanoseconds by using sophisticated instruments including advanced GPS systems and atomic clocks. The time response of all elements of the CNGS beam line and of the OPERA detector has also been measured with great precision.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897
60 (?) nanoseconds too early for 730 kilometers...
Tayga;
I'm unsure how the events observed in neutrino detectors can be attributed to neutrinos without equivocation. What has been done to rule out all other causes?
Lot's of uncertain variables, right? The experiment should therefor be replicated, as the scientists stated

http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressRel ... 9.11E.html

When an experiment finds an apparently unbelievable result and can find no artefact of the measurement to account for it, it’s normal procedure to invite broader scrutiny, and this is exactly what the OPERA collaboration is doing, it’s good scientific practice,” said CERN Research Director Sergio Bertolucci. “If this measurement is confirmed, it might change our view of physics, but we need to be sure that there are no other, more mundane, explanations. That will require independent measurements.
Last edited by MrAmsterdam on Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

sjw40364
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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by sjw40364 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:37 pm

The problem is they didn't publish their results because they want someone to disprove those results, not validate them. They are basically begging someone to come up with a different solution that they can accept, so that all will be well with the universe again and standard cosmology can proceed as king again. They are asking for help in disproving the results, not proving them, one needs just read the words.

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Re: Speed-of-light experiments give baffling result at Cern

Unread post by Aeon » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:16 pm

I would absolutely love to see this validated. Not that I believe in neutrinos, but that it would destroy SR. :mrgreen:

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