Interacting galaxies, help needed

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mharratsc
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Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by mharratsc » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:41 pm

I found this while stomping around on the NRAO VLA Image Gallery:

Tidal Interactions in M81 Group
Image
About this Image
This pair of images illustrates the need to study celestial objects at different wavelengths in order to get "the whole picture" of what is happening with those objects. At left, you see a visible-light image of the M81 Group of galaxies (from the Digital Sky Survey), shown in a reversed greyscale (dark regions are brighter). Most of the light in this image comes from stars in the galaxies. At right, a radio image, made with the VLA, shows the hydrogen gas, including streamers of gas connecting the galaxies. From the radio image, it becomes apparent that this is an interacting group of galaxies, not isolated objects.
Investigator(s): Min S. Yun, Paul T.P. Ho, K.Y. Lo
This galactic dance group may have been covered already- if so, I apologize. What I'm wondering however is what the redshifts are of all the 'galactic objects' that are all interacting via these hydrogen filaments?

Thanks in advance! :)
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington

fosborn
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by fosborn » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:05 pm

The group contains two Messier objects: M81 and M82 which form an appealing interacting pair visible in the same field of view at moderate magnification. Other members include NGC 3077 and NGC 2976. As radio images such as ours have revealed, NGC 3077 is in considerable interaction with M81 and M82, plus perhaps some very small galaxies, as there is a common gaseous envelope. In our image, M81 is the spiral right and below center, M82 the not in the upper right center, and NGC 3077 is lower left; at least two dwarf galaxies appear to show up closely left of M81. http://seds.org/messier/more/m081gr.html
Is this what your asking for. If I see it right, the wikipedia list shows the redshifts. and the seds.org names and roughly locates the objects? Redshifts in 5th column

mharratsc
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by mharratsc » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:17 am

Thanks, Fosborn!

Now I need to try and make some sense of it! :lol:
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington

fosborn
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by fosborn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:32 am

I'm in the same boat, maybe we should post what we find, concerning redshift for dummies? :)
(I'm using my blackberry so, my efforts may wait till I get home tonight.)

fosborn
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by fosborn » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:11 pm

Ok, this is a red shift. That wasn't so hard. Or it turns out, its as hard as I want to work on it, once I started reading about it. What a can of worms!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift
200px-Redshift_blueshift_svg.png
Sorry for the last post, about wanting to explain redshifts for dummies. The hole idea of, expanding space, stretching out light, as it travels, is a too spooky for this dummy. :?

Nereid
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by Nereid » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:25 am

Mike, fosborn,

What is it that you'd like to know, about the galaxies in the M81 group, or the HI distribution (derived from 21 cm observations)?

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D_Archer
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by D_Archer » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:05 am

Hi Nereid,

Mike wrote:
What I'm wondering however is what the redshifts are of all the 'galactic objects' that are all interacting via these hydrogen filaments
(emphasis mine)

Regards,
Daniel
- Shoot Forth Thunder -

fosborn
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by fosborn » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:23 am

by fosborn » Feb 3rd, '11, 06:43

Fosborn wrote; Sorry for the last post, about wanting to explain redshifts for dummies. The hole idea of, expanding space, stretching out light, as it travels, is a too spooky for this dummy.


Why this is a dummy statement concerning spookiness of M81 group? Maybe because;
Chronos wrote; Gravitational attraction between us and M81 group exceeds the force of expansion, at least for the foreseeable future.http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=276364
On the other hand, why it still looks like a can of worms;
(I thought this post summarized the wikipedia article)
AJH ; 1) A measure of the velocity of a galaxy would depend on the point of reference (Sun, galaxy centre, group centre etc) of the observor as well as the object's activity within its own group - a galaxy might thus have a negative red-shift and still be receding from us.2) Members of nearer groups beyond the Local Group such as M81 can still gravitationally interact with the Local Group so any current recession on their part may not necessarily be long-term.

3) There is a clearer pattern of recession away from us in somewhat further groups such as M51 group, M101 group etc.

4) The attractive effect of massive of groups such as the Virgo cluster counteracts the general trend of recession.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=276364
The spooky part, is what is space time? It would have to be a substance to stretch. But the only theoretical physical substance to fill space, would be aether, stretching (or in continuous creation?). :?
Chronos wrote;Hubble expansion is slowed 10-20% by gravity in a typical supercluster. http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=276364
[/quote]

On the other, other hand (I'm an octopus)
This is probably something for another thread, and Super Dave's admonishment is "don't bite off more than you can chew" may apply (This qualifies!).

Nereid
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by Nereid » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:02 am

A few words about redshifts, and what the published redshifts of galaxies mean (I'll focus on UV, optical/visual, and near-IR parts of the electromagnetic spectrum).

If you take a spectrum - split the light into colours - of an astronomical object, you send the light from the object into a spectrograph (sometimes called a spectroscope) and record the intensity of the light as a function of wavelength. The output may be a 1D spectrum (e.g. wavelength on the x-axis, intensity on the y-axis; all the light from what is sent into the spectrograph), a 2D spectrum (e.g. wavelength on the x-axis, angular distance on the y-axis, intensity coded as colour; the light sent into the spectrograph comes from a strip, perhaps a 'long slit'), or a data cube (each 2D pixel on the sky/object has its own spectrum; each could be displayed as a 1D spectrum).

The spectra of stars, planetary nebulae, HII regions, and galaxies (and many more objects besides) usually contain 'lines', which correspond to specific atomic transitions (the electron in an atom, or ion, 'jumps' from one allowed level to another; if the jump is 'down' - higher energy state to a lower one - the atom or ion emits light; if 'up, it absorbs light). The 'rest wavelengths' of the lines are very well known, either from high precision lab experiments or theory (e.g. many 'nebular lines' have never been observed in labs - we can't create vacuums hard enough for long enough). The difference between the observed wavelength (from the spectrum of the astronomical object) and the rest wavelength is called redshift, in the sense of (observed) - (rest). Note that negative redshifts are sometimes called blueshifts.

In this there is no assumption, or theory, concerning motion (Doppler or otherwise), gravity, distance, or anything else; the redshift - at this stage! - is simply the difference between what's observed and what's in a table.

To make the redshift of an object observed by one spectrograph - at a particular location and time - comparable (scientifically) with that observed (of the same object) by a different spectrograph (or the same one!) - at a different location and time (or different time, same location), a series of 'corrections' or 'transformations' are done. These convert what was actually observed to what would have been observed had the spectrograph been at the solar system's barycentre (or centre of mass/gravity); i.e. take out all the redshifts due to the relative motion of the spectrograph - at the time and location of the observation - with respect to the solar system barycentre. These transformations were exceedingly tedious to do in the days before astronomers had computers (actually, the people - usually women - who did all the calculations by hand were called, at the time, computers! :) ), but today they're just a simple routine (though not so simple for spectrographs aboard FUSE say, or the Hubble Space Telescope).

This works fine for stars, or objects which are essentially point sources; however, the redshift of a galaxy is rather more complicated.

Galaxies, obviously, are not points (well, some seem to be, but those in the M81 group are not). So, in principle at least, there could be a spectrum - and hence a redshift - for every pixel in the image of a galaxy (and as the number of pixels in a galaxy image depends - in part - on the resolution of the imaging system, spectrographs on the Hubble may be able to take far more spectra of an M81 group galaxy than one down here on the ground could).

And, in general, each part of a galaxy does have a different redshift! For spiral galaxies, how those redshifts vary across the galaxy is what becomes an estimate of the galaxy's 'rotation curve', when suitably analysed.

To get the redshift of the galaxy as a whole, two different methods are commonly used: in one, the redshift of the nucleus (if it can be obtained) is what's called the galaxy's redshift; in the other, the individual redshifts are averaged, using one of several weighting methods.

So a galaxy's redshift tells us whether the galaxy is heading away from us (a positive redshift), or towards us (a negative redshift; one day it will collide with us), right? Sorta; here's why:

* the redshift gives a measure of an object's line of sight motion only; if it's screaming across the sky, at right angles to the line of sight, you can't tell (from the redshift)

* the solar system is moving, relative to the nucleus of our own galaxy (the Milky Way), so the galaxy-to-galaxy redshift (that which you'd measure if you were at our galaxy's nucleus, and not moving relative to it) will nearly always be different than that which we observed out here in the galactic suburbs

There's nothing you can do about the former, using today's astronomical capabilities - at least not for galaxies in the M81 group - however, you can use estimates of the solar system's position and motion relative to the galaxy nucleus to transform the observed redshift to a 'galactocentric' redshift. There'll be some inevitable extra uncertainty of course (for example due to the viewing geometry), but for most purposes it won't be much more than that in the galaxy redshift estimate ('it' being the uncertainty, or 'error').

Finally, redshifts can be given a km/sec, or z; the former is easy to understand (the observed redshift is the same as that you'd see if the relative line of sight motion were so many km/sec); the latter is just a formula: z = (wavelength observed - rest wavelength) divided by rest wavelength.

I hope this helps some.

Dotini
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by Dotini » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:08 am

Basic math is important! I would like to know why the minus sign is the only mathematical difference between space and time, according to Einstein.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

jjohnson
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by jjohnson » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:29 am

Very nice, clear explanation, Nereid. I appreciate the way you preface things by stating the assumptions — or lack thereof in this case — regarding any causes of redshift. It's initially simply an observation scientists are able to measure with some degree of accuracy, and to compare with validated tables of lab-observed spectral "lines".

I like to think of the raw redshift value as the difference between the vector components of "our" motion and the object's motion which are aligned (collinear or coaxial) between the two positions. That way, we "know" that there may be an additional vector component out of a plane containing us and it, but for redshift purposes we don't care what those vectors are.

My question is, because I am so far confused by the explanations I have read, concerns the "super-luminal motion" of near-axial jets which have been observed from active galaxies. You probably have a very good grasp on this, and I could stand your reasonable method of enlightenment on this particular redshift issue. Thanks in advance ~

Jim

Lloyd
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by Lloyd » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:08 pm

* Jim, regarding superluminal motion, Tony Peratt said:
"trapped synchrotron radiating plasma is not flowing out of a 'central source' but can appear superluminal (up to 7c [7c means 7 times faster than light]) because of the acute angle of the converging B fields [magnetic fields] along the 'jet'."
See: A. L. Peratt et al, "3-dimensional Particle-in-cell Simulations Of Spiral Galaxies", in Galactic and intergalactic magnetic fields; Proceedings of the 140th Symposium of IAU, June 19-23, 1989.
See page 150, final paragraph at http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//ful ... 0.000.html
Abstract: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1990IAUS..140..143P
* For proof that redshift does not indicate true distance or velocity, see http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/ ... rs-god.htm and http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/00subjectx.htm#Redshift and http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/00subjectx.htm#Quasars.
* Someone also said, "When ... 'superluminal velocities' are encountered, astronomers use a 'relativistic' expression: v=c((z+1)^2-1) / ((z+1)^2+1). [But] this is nonsense. z>1 [redshift greater than 1] simply is an observation that falsifies the "redshift implies distance" assumption."
* Another said regarding that equation: "if you plug in any positive value of z ... between 0 and 1 yields v < c [v<c means velocity is less than lightspeed]. But if you then plug in that same value of z with a minus sign in front of it (as for a blueshift ...), you do not get the same magnitude for v.
For example, z = 1 yields v = 0.6c.
But z = -1 yields v = -c.
In other words their relativistic universe seems to have different rules for bodies that are receding from Earth than for those that are approaching Earth."

Nereid
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by Nereid » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:15 am

jjohnson wrote:Very nice, clear explanation, Nereid. I appreciate the way you preface things by stating the assumptions — or lack thereof in this case — regarding any causes of redshift. It's initially simply an observation scientists are able to measure with some degree of accuracy, and to compare with validated tables of lab-observed spectral "lines".
Thanks.

Just one small, but important, nitpick: quite a lot of the lines used to estimate redshift have never been observed 'in the lab'. These (mostly) 'nebular' lines are from 'forbidden' transitions of ionised oxygen, sulphur, and nitrogen (mostly) and are produced when a meta-stable state decays; the half-life of these transitions is far longer than the mean time between collisions in the plasmas we can create in our labs (the ones in which we'd expect to see such lines anyway), so the rest wavelengths are derived from atomic theory (of course, everything in this sentence is theory-based, except for the definition of nebular lines!). Two of the most prominent such lines are the [OIII] 495.9 nm and 500.7 nm ones.
I like to think of the raw redshift value as the difference between the vector components of "our" motion and the object's motion which are aligned (collinear or coaxial) between the two positions. That way, we "know" that there may be an additional vector component out of a plane containing us and it, but for redshift purposes we don't care what those vectors are.
Yes, that's quite a useful perspective.
My question is, because I am so far confused by the explanations I have read, concerns the "super-luminal motion" of near-axial jets which have been observed from active galaxies. You probably have a very good grasp on this, and I could stand your reasonable method of enlightenment on this particular redshift issue. Thanks in advance ~
Lloyd wrote:* Someone also said, "When ... 'superluminal velocities' are encountered, astronomers use a 'relativistic' expression: v=c((z+1)^2-1) / ((z+1)^2+1). [But] this is nonsense. z>1 [redshift greater than 1] simply is an observation that falsifies the "redshift implies distance" assumption."
* Another said regarding that equation: "if you plug in any positive value of z ... between 0 and 1 yields v < c [v<c means velocity is less than lightspeed]. But if you then plug in that same value of z with a minus sign in front of it (as for a blueshift ...), you do not get the same magnitude for v.
For example, z = 1 yields v = 0.6c.
But z = -1 yields v = -c.
In other words their relativistic universe seems to have different rules for bodies that are receding from Earth than for those that are approaching Earth."
It's a good question JJ, and I'll see if I can find some well-written material on it (and if not, I'll have a go at writing an explanation myself).

First, though, there's a lot of confusion, in all manner of sources, over 'cosmological redshift' (and super-luminal motion in general).

One such is evident in the part of Lloyd's post I'm quoting; part of it comes from a misunderstanding of the relativistic doppler effect, part from application of General Relativity to cosmology ('expanding universe'). Both, of course, can be understood only within the framework of the respective theories - special relativity and general relativity - and in the latter case, only within the specific application of the theory to specific classes of (cosmological) models.

Here is a good explanation of the former (one apparent mistake in Lloyd's (unnamed) source is misapplication of a definition); for the latter, here (PDF) is Lineweaver and Davis' March 2005 Scientific American article "Misconceptions About the Big Bang", and here (arXiv abstract) is their more technical paper "Expanding Confusion: common misconceptions of cosmological horizons and the superluminal expansion of the Universe".

mharratsc
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by mharratsc » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:21 pm

Well thanks for the input, everyone!

Now- what do we make of the different redshifts of the objects that are connected by hydrogen filaments in this one image then? o.O
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington

jjohnson
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Re: Interacting galaxies, help needed

Post by jjohnson » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:52 pm

1. The tabulated redshifts are relative to us as receiver. I think one would have to know more about the velocity vector of each object to see how the redshifts compare one with the other among the galaxy group. I'm not sure that can be derived from redshift data to us as an external datum, since we only have redshift data relative to a directed line between here and there, and don't know the other vector components that may also exist. Maybe astronomers can; I'm just not sure how, as proper motions of galaxies so far away are kind of hard to obtain. I think.
2. Let's say object A is actually found to have a positive redshift value relative to an observer in object B. I think that means it's likely that the absolute distance between the two objects is not decreasing with time. They may be flying directly away from each other in a common plane like "ships passing in the night", or they may be separating and not be in a common plane, oblique non-intersecting trajectories.
3. If A and B have a filament of hydrogen gas or plasma connecting them, I am not sure you can say anything about what is happening. What if the filalment only happens or appears to be connecting them now, but they will eventually plow their way out of the filament and it will be left hanging in space? What if it is "attached" to these two objects? Then it may try to stay attached. If so, its two ends will be at different velocities or redshifts relative to, say, the center, and there would be a gradient or continuum of change along the length of the filament. It may be getting "stretched out", basically, if attached. Is it possible for that to happen? I don't know enough to be sure. I am not even sure how one snapshot in cosmic time can help us decide on a mechanism that "anchors" a filament "here" and also parsecs away over "there".

Bottom line for me, as usual: I don't know. :oops:

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