Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby jjohnson » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:14 am

--and lest we think that other engineering disciplines ignore plasma phenomena, here's an abstract of an article using electrodes as a method of controlling plasma flows in supersonic combustion ram-jet engines.

An overview is presented of a comprehensive challenge effort titled "Tip-to-tail Turbulent Scramjet Flowpath Simulation with MHD Energy Bypass”. Emphasis is placed on fully three-dimensional (3-D) results obtained recently at flight conditions. The goal is to employ high-fidelity simulations to lift critical constraints in scramjet development through revolutionary new concepts, which do not readily lend themselves to ground or flight test investigations. The central feature of these techniques is the deployment of 3-D electromagnetic fields to address the harsh airbreathing hypersonic environment. The theoretical model employed resolves the multi-fluid, multi-physics phenomena through a careful blend of first-principles and phenomenological elements chosen to discover new enabling physics. The resulting large and mathematically complex set of equations requires both advanced numerical methods and the massive systems available through the DoD HPC. By coupling results to powerful 3-D visualization techniques, the project has discovered previously unknown effects relating the magnetic, electric and velocity vector fields, as well as location and extent of the ionized region. This has enabled the elucidation of a simple set of principles for effective plasma-based flow control. Key among these are the thermodynamic balance between ponderomotive force and heating through competition between work and Ohmic dissipation and the discriminating effect of energy direction when electrodes are employed. These general observations are employed to develop methods to mitigate heat transfer, separation, mixing and energy management.


When air enters a ramjet engine it is compressed and heated, is partially ionized and promptly enters the state of plasma, not a gas at room temperature, and not simply a "hot" gas at a somewhat elevated temperature. Being a plasma in relative motion (say, mach 6), they realize that now they can usefully direct it electrically! When astrophysicists talk about jets' being deformed by the "ram pressure" of the interstellar medium, they aren't reading their cohorts' papers on electrical guiding processes in plasma. Those jets are kinking around as they interact with varying EM conditions fairly far downstream of their source, and are not just another example of von Karmen wake vortices in the IM. De left hand ain't be connected to de right hand, doo dah, doo dah, all de live-long day!!
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby junglelord » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:20 am

squiz wrote:Image


Nice view of a Phase Conjugate four wave mixer.
The central Z Pinch current columns are the two pump beams which enter at the poles.
The electron flow current into and out of the equator is the phase conjugate reversed and its original.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby Anaconda » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:15 am

Hi jjohnson:

jjohnson wrote:
The heliosphere is not a "hot gas bubble" that our sun has "blown" in the interstellar medium, like bubble gum. It is a stable, flexible, complex and dynamic structure interacting magnetically and electrically with its local plasma environment.



jjohnson, you are spot on: It comes down to the question of whether a mechanical model or an electrical model is more illuminating for understanding the Sun's environment.

In other words:

Is the Sun's environment mechanical or electrical in nature?

Which is more important: Hot gas, kinetics, and pressure, or electromotive force, plasma, and electromagnetic structures and processes?

"All modelling that ignores the electrical nature of matter is worthless." -- Wal Thornhill


jjohnson, you are in good company and in the end I'm confident this view point will prevail.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby davesmith_au » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:06 am

Thanks squiz! I just (belatedly) came to the forum to post Wal's latest on the topic of this thread, but I see squiz beat me to it, but a healthy margin too. Well done.

Here's the link again for anyone who missed it:

[url]http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=74fgmwne[/url]

Cheers, Dave.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby Drethon » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:18 am

davesmith_au wrote:Thanks squiz! I just (belatedly) came to the forum to post Wal's latest on the topic of this thread, but I see squiz beat me to it, but a healthy margin too. Well done.

Here's the link again for anyone who missed it:

[url]http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=74fgmwne[/url]

Cheers, Dave.


Heh, squiz even beat Wal to posting about this topic. Its great how the community is picking up on scientific observation and catching a lot of the implications even before the scientists complete their formal response to the observations.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby solrey » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:32 pm

The timing of when the IBEX data was collected corresponds to about the lowest activity in this current solar cycle. In the past couple of months, solar cycle activity has increased slightly.
I would expect a corresponding, slight increase (around 5% - 8%), in the energy level/density in the ribbon/belt region, although it's such a slight increase that it might not show up outside the "margin of error" on IBEX.
If it does happen, watch them mainstreamers get even more befuddled. :lol:
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby Anaconda » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:27 am

Hi solrey:

solrey wrote:The timing of when the IBEX data was collected corresponds to about the lowest activity in this current solar cycle. In the past couple of months, solar cycle activity has increased slightly.
I would expect a corresponding, slight increase (around 5% - 8%), in the energy level/density in the ribbon/belt region, although it's such a slight increase that it might not show up outside the "margin of error" on IBEX.
If it does happen, watch them mainstreamers get even more befuddled. :lol:


That is an excellent prediction :idea:

It should be straight forward to make observations & measurements that either confirm or falsify your prediction.

Also, as important, if not more so, if the ribbon strength and sunspot activity are linked by observation & measurement, that would be very strong scientific evidence that the Sun is not an isolated body, and that at the very least energetic signals come from the outside in toward the Sun, but more reasonably energy, electrical energy comes from the interstellar electromagnetic field and causes changes in the electrical energy output of the Sun.

If all that happens, it starts getting a lot harder to ignore the 'Electric Sun' hypothesis, and, indeed, the whole Hannes Alfven concept of a Universe of plasma that is cellular and connected in circuits.

And much harder to maintain the facade of "modern" astronomy :P
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby solrey » Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:58 am

Hi Anaconda.

I believe IBEX also detected "hot spots" along the ribbon/belt. I would expect those hot spots to shift position in relation to the orbits of the gas giants, especially Jupiter and Saturn.
That ought to be another WTF? moment for the mainstreamers.

Two predictions:
Changes in energy density in the belt region corresponding to changes in solar activity.
Movement of "hot spots" corresponding to the orbits of the gas giants.


I was checking out the UT comments, found the Crescent Nebula article, and it seems that one of the moderators, who is also the author of the article, Tammy, is on your side, Anaconda. That might encourage me to jump back into the fray every now and then. ;)

Tammy Plotner wrote:

if this person (Anaconda) has a reputation for posting theories where they do not belong, then they have not done so on my dime, therefore i cannot judge them. however, in deference to everyone – i read the linkage…. and congratulations to nancy for posting and never looking back. (or at least being able to exhibit a certain amount of self-control not to respond – a talent i sometimes lack. ;) )

what i saw were links to creditable work by researchers and not an individual. while these theories may or may not apply, i found them entertaining, enlightening and thought-provoking… what i believed to be the spirit of commenting to be in the first place. then a whole lot of what occurred after that as posted by a certain individual (one of the ill-mannered pseudo-skeptics) was tantamount to poking your finger in someone's eye, eh?


Good job my friend. Don't be tempted to stoop to their level, keep it "professional" and it will continue to be obvious who the actual crackpots are. (Crumb, 3man, et. al.)

ND, one of the ill-mannered pseudo-skeptics wrote,
I think, in the end, he (Anaconda) was banned from BA, at least, he didn't show up anymore (just like OilIsMastery – who remembers him?). I think it was Ivan3man who guided our attention to UT (for which I am very thankful, not because the discussions with Anaconda went on here, but because the stories and topics are always very interesting and informative!), where Anaconda was also at work with his nonsense.


They followed you to UT enmasse.
You've got groupies, dude, err ahh...I mean stalkers. :lol:
Who are the crackpot trolls again?

Back to our regularly scheduled program...
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby mharratsc » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:25 pm

What I wonder is- will this be yet another topic that gets swept under the rug and not reported on to the journals/news sites, or will this continue to sit in the limelight for a bit?

I have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to be the former... :\

It always seems like the 'hard science' finds that blow holes in mainstreamist theory just... disappear, and that they only continue to report on finds that there can be no way to refute or prove untrue (black holes, string theory, invisible fuzzy pink unicorns, etc.) :P

Time will tell, I spoze.

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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby saul » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:28 am

Greetings -
I've been working on the IBEX mission for 4 years now. It is great to see all the discussion generated here! This is really the kind of thing that makes one think it's been worthwhile. There are a number of open questions about the nature of the ribbon, and also the local interstellar medium. The Voyager passes through the termination shock left a few big questions as well, namely why the solar wind is supersonic on both sides of the shock and why the ACR flux didn't peak at the shock as predicted by a shock acceleration model of ACR generation. Everybody in the community knows that these are plasmas, and so by definition dominated by electromagnetic forces. However, there is still a lot of work to do on both observation and theory. So, I will keep checking back here for new ideas :) If anyone has any specific questions on the IBEX measurements I'd be glad to help if I can. Thanks!
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby rduke » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:48 pm

Saul,

Nice to hear from you. Thank you for your work.

It is nice to see that we are on some of the same pages.

Look forward to more.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby StefanR » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:23 am

The saga continues....

"We believe the ribbon is a reflection," says Jacob Heerikhuisen, a NASA Heliophysics Guest Investigator from the University of Alabama in Huntsville. "It is where solar wind particles heading out into interstellar space are reflected back into the solar system by a galactic magnetic field."

The IBEX data fit in nicely with recent results from Voyager. Voyager 1 and 2 are near the edge of the solar system and they also have sensed strong* magnetism nearby. Voyager measurements are relatively local to the spacecraft, however. IBEX is filling in the "big picture." The ribbon it sees is vast and stretches almost all the way across the sky, suggesting that the magnetic field behind it must be equally vast.

Although maps of the ribbon (see below) seem to show a luminous body, the ribbon emits no light. Instead, it makes itself known via particles called "energetic neutral atoms" (ENAs)--mainly garden-variety hydrogen atoms. The ribbon emits these particles, which are picked up by IBEX in Earth orbit.

The reflection process posited by Heerikhuisen et al. is a bit complicated, involving multiple "charge exchange" reactions between protons and hydrogen atoms. The upshot, however, is simple. Particles from the solar wind that escape the solar system are met ~100 astronomical units (~15 billion kilometers) away by an interstellar magnetic field. Magnetic forces intercept the escaping particles and sling them right back where they came from.

"If this mechanism is correct--and not everyone agrees--then the shape of the ribbon is telling us a lot about the orientation of the magnetic field in our corner of the Milky Way galaxy," notes Heerikhuisen.

And upon this field, the future may hinge.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2010/15jan_ibex2.htm?list14818
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby solrey » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:08 pm

Welcome to the forum, saul. Thanks for all the good work helping facilitate new discoveries. :)
Interesting times indeed.

The reflection process posited by Heerikhuisen et al. is a bit complicated, involving multiple "charge exchange" reactions between protons and hydrogen atoms. The upshot, however, is simple. Particles from the solar wind that escape the solar system are met ~100 astronomical units (~15 billion kilometers) away by an interstellar magnetic field. Magnetic forces intercept the escaping particles and sling them right back where they came from.


I wonder where they came up with the distance of 100 AU beyond the heliosphere for this interstellar magnetic field. I think a ring current could be located there, generating a toroidal magnetic field. It's known that ring currents will produce energetic neutral atoms, like the ring currents around Earth. Although due to the sparse particle density in the ISM, I suspect the double layer in the heliosheath might be an additional source of ENA's, or may even be the sole source. The ring current's magnetic field out in the ISM would attract more charge carriers where it would "impinge" on the heliosheath's DL. Some ions and electrons could get trapped in the electric field between the two charge sheaths of the DL, producing a bundle of Birkeland filaments, like a belt, around the heliosheath. As the particles collide and neutralize some of their trajectories carry them to IBEX.
Either way, it all starts with the ring current surrounding the heliosphere in the ISM.


Saul, even though everyone knows they're dealing with plasma, are you just treating it as a hot gas and only using MHD, because MHD and hot gas is an over-simplification of true plasma behavior. It makes the maths easier, but isn't necessarily an accurate representation of actual plasma behavior. Is there any consideration for treating the heliosheath as a plasma double layer? The electric field between the charge sheaths in a double layer is a very important aspect of plasma dynamics. Such as acceleration of charged particles thereby maintaining "supersonic" velocities beyond the heliosphere or why the ACR flux didn't peak, likely due to a DL being a lot more organized than a turbulent termination shock.
I think considering a ring current in the ISM, and the heliosheath as a double layer will provide some answers for ya.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby junglelord » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:25 pm

solrey wrote:
I wonder where they came up with the distance of 100 AU beyond the heliosphere for this interstellar magnetic field. I think a ring current could be located there, generating a toroidal magnetic field. It's known that ring currents will produce energetic neutral atoms, like the ring currents around Earth. Although due to the sparse particle density in the ISM, I suspect the double layer in the heliosheath might be an additional source of ENA's, or may even be the sole source. The ring current's magnetic field out in the ISM would attract more charge carriers where it would "impinge" on the heliosheath's DL. Some ions and electrons could get trapped in the electric field between the two charge sheaths of the DL, producing a bundle of Birkeland filaments, like a belt, around the heliosheath. As the particles collide and neutralize some of their trajectories carry them to IBEX.
Either way, it all starts with the ring current surrounding the heliosphere in the ISM.

I think considering a ring current in the ISM, and the heliosheath as a double layer will provide some answers for ya.

You just described a Aether Physics Unit dual charge electron or proton in galactic scale.
EM toroidal charge surrounding spherical ES charge .

I have think that you are correct.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby solrey » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:40 pm

EM toroidal charge surrounding spherical ES charge .


I like it, junglelord. Excellent! :D
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