Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby Anaconda » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:35 pm

@ allynh:

allynh wrote:
Every single plasma event is Fluids, when you pick the right model. That is why Langmuir named it "Plasma" in the first place.


No.

Langmuir named it "plasma" because its physical behavior resembled cells of living organisms, more specifically blood plasma, as in the "plasma", charged particles, was self-organizing.

Fluid dynamics has very little in the way of self-organization, at least that mimmics the self-organizing of living tissue.

The fluid dynamics of MHD is a mathematical approximation, and as additional observations & measurements of space plasma with it's inherent electromagnetic dynamics is made, it becomes more evident that tenuous plasma, the kind observed in space, does not behave in the simplified model of magnetized fluids, rather, it behaves more as Hannes Alfven described it in his later years: Cellular and composed as circuits.

Langmuir was was very much on target with his naming charged particles "plasma".

You do a disservice to Langmuir to suggest he saw it as simply fluid dynamics.

Langmuir knew it was much more dynamic than that. He knew it was self-organizing, that is why he named it "plasma".
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby Anaconda » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:48 pm

@ Hi solrey:

Thank you for batting clean-up and belting it out the park over at Watts Up With That? ;)

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/17/d ... ar-system/

* Note - Dr. Leif Svalgaard is a helio plasma physicist who occasionally posts and frequently comments at Watts Up With That?, and acts as an informal resident expert on helio astro-physics. Svalgaard has a consistent habit of rudely attacking any Plasma Universe and/or Electric Universe ideas that appear in the comment section of Watts Up With That?, a website that averages around 15,000 hits per day.

As solrey commented with some added gloss on my part for context:

solrey (18:25:10) :

Leif Svalgaard wrote (11:54:25) : Welcome to the Plasma Universe [Svalgaard's quote of another reader's comment]


Svalgaard responded:
Another piece of nonsense. The galactic magnetic field interacts with the plasma of the heliopause and the resulting electric currents deforms the heliosphere, just like for the Earth’s magnetosphere.


Then solrey invited Svalgaard to consider additional scientific evidence:

solrey wrote:
Mr. Svalgaard might want to consider these further details obtained in cooperation with Cassini, describing a spherical heliosphere, not an elongated “teardrop” [which is what Svalgaard was alluding to when he said the heliosphere was just like the Earth's magnetosphere].


solrey then proceeds to provide the Physorg link and passage quoted below.

http://www.physorg.com/news174908954.html

“These images have revolutionized what we thought we knew for the past 50 years; the sun travels through the galaxy not like a comet but more like a big, round bubble,” said Stamatios Krimigis of the Applied Physics Lab, in Laurel, Md., principal investigator for Cassini’s Magnetospheric Imaging Instrument which carries the Ion and Neutral Camera. “It’s amazing how a single new observation can change an entire concept that most scientists had taken as true for nearly fifty years.”

The Ion and Neutral Camera images suggest that the solar wind’s interaction with the interstellar medium is instead more significantly controlled by particle pressure and magnetic field energy density.

“The map we’ve created from the images suggests that pressure from a hot population of charged particles and interaction with the interstellar medium’s magnetic field strongly influence the shape of the heliosphere,” says Don Mitchell, Magnetospheric Imaging Instrument/Ion and Neutral Camera co-investigator at the Applied Physics Lab.


And then in the next passage is where solrey really knocked it out of the park in my estimation:

solrey wrote:
Taken as a whole, this information about the belt and accompanying stringy ribbon structure, spherical heliosphere, etc., suggests a toroidal ring current surrounding a spherical double layer (heliosheath) within a galactic “Bennett pinch” (indicated by the surrounding charged particle’s high temperature and pressure, and apparently strong magnetic field).
Pretty much expected in Plasma Cosmology/Electric Universe.


Svalgaard has yet to respond to solrey's comment...I'll be interested to see how Svalgaard responds, if he responds at all.

Again, great job solrey :)

This IBEX story has really knocked the "modern" astronomy establishment for a loop (tremendous credit must be given to the researchers on the project for calling it like they see it -- seemingly, the researchers closest to these in situ satellite probe experiments fortunately are the least effected by the heavy layering of dogma in the astrological fraternity) and gotten a large play on the internet at numerous sites. Laymen astronomers have been informed that "the models were wrong" and that interstellar magnetic fields play a "dominant" role in the structure of the heliosphere, along with a spattering of acknowledgment of the role of plasma, charged particles, depending on the specific internet site.

It seems we in the Electric Universe community are creeping ever closer to having plasma/electromagnetic ideas accepted in the near-space helio environment as in situ satellite probes make additional observations & measurements consistent with Electric Universe principles.

Perhaps an :idea: will pop on above the heads of at least some in the astrological fraternity that not only do Electric Universe principles hold true in near-space, but, also, in deep-space large structures, as well.

One can only hope :|
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Interesting Article on Bands of Energy Leaving the Solar Sys

Unread postby Sinister Rouge » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:40 pm

I wasnt sure exactly where to post this but its an awesome article I found that sums up the the situation with the Electrical Universe theory in main stream thinking. I especially liked the part where they say "[The ribbon is] aligned by and dominated by the external magnetic field," McComas said in a briefing Thursday. "That's a huge clue as to what's going on. But still we're missing some really fundamental aspect of the interaction - some fundamental physics is missing from our understanding."

Mystery Emissions Spotted at Edge of Solar System
By Clara Moskowitz
Staff Writer
posted: 15 October 2009
2:01 pm ET

This story was updated at 3:06 p.m. EDT.

In the murky boundary between our solar system and the rest of the galaxy, scientists have spotted a bright band of surprising high-energy emissions.

The results come from the first all-sky map created by NASA's new Interstellar Boundary Explorer (IBEX) spacecraft, which launched in October 2008. While orbiting Earth, IBEX monitors incoming neutral atoms that originate billions of miles away at the solar system's edge to learn about the interaction between the sun and the cold expanse of space.

"The IBEX results are truly remarkable, with emissions not resembling any of the current theories or models of this never-before-seen region," said David McComas, IBEX principal investigator at the Southwest Research Institute in Texas. "We expected to see small, gradual spatial variations at the interstellar boundary, some 10 billion miles away. However, IBEX is showing us a very narrow ribbon that is two to three times brighter than anything else in the sky."

This ribbon of energy lies at the very edge of the solar system, where the bubble of charged particles streaming from the sun finally peters out. This bubble is called the heliosphere, and it encompasses the region of space dominated by the sun's influence.

The edge of the solar system

At the boundary of the heliosphere, the sun's positively-charged particles interact with neutral atoms drifting in from interstellar space. When these particles meet, an electron may hop over from a neutral atom to a charged one, called an ion. The result: the charged particle becomes neutral. IBEX detects these fast-moving neutral particles and traces their paths back to the solar system's edge to create a picture of this chaotic frontier.

"We're just now getting a handle on the interaction of the surrounding interstellar medium with the heliosphere, and that's providing us with the big picture," said mission co-investigator Eberhard Möbius of the University of New Hampshire.

The mission scientists said they were surprised to discover the striking band in IBEX's sky maps, because no models had predicted such a pattern beforehand.

McComas said when he first saw the IBEX results he thought, "'Something's wrong,' It was quite a long time before we convinced ourselves that we were right," he said.

The bright ribbon appears to be shaped by the direction of the interstellar magnetic field outside the heliosphere. Scientists think this suggests that the galactic environment just outside the solar system has far more influence on the structure of the heliosphere than previously believed.

"[The ribbon is] aligned by and dominated by the external magnetic field," McComas said in a briefing Thursday. "That's a huge clue as to what's going on. But still we're missing some really fundamental aspect of the interaction - some fundamental physics is missing from our understanding."

The boundary of the solar system was first explored by the Voyager 1 spacecraft in 2004 when it encountered an invisible shock created as the charged particles streaming off the sun hit the neutral gas from interstellar space. Its sister craft Voyager 2 followed into the solar system's edge in 2007. While these spacecraft began the exploration of this wild frontier, IBEX is now revealing a whole new picture.

"The most astounding feature in the IBEX sky maps — the bright narrow ribbon — snakes through the sky between the Voyager spacecraft, where it remained completely undetected until now," McComas said.

The new IBEX results will be published in the Oct. 16 issue of the journal Science

Article link http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/091015-space-bubble.html

[post merged into this thread - mod]
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby vukcevic » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:01 am

Anaconda wrote:
Langmuir knew it was much more dynamic than that. He knew it was self-organizing, that is why he named it "plasma".

Some time ago I wrote this on plasma’s self-organising properties:
Ordinary particles without charge in Brownian motion move in random directions, charge particles do not. In one of his first major theoretical works Einstein has shown in 1905 that Brownian motion on the atomic and molecular scale is a function of the particles’ size, implying that protons and electrons move at different speeds resulting in rise of potential difference and electric currents on a micro scale.
Collisions of charged particles in plasmas are quite different from normal neutral particle collisions. Neutral particles move independently along straight-line trajectories between distinct collision events, which are typically strong, inelastic events that cause the neutral particle to be scattered in an approximately random direction. In contrast, a charged particle moving through a plasma simultaneously experiences (and is deflected by) the weak Coulomb electric field forces around all the nearby charged particles as it passes by each of them. Since the electric fields around the individual charged particles are quite weak and Coulomb collisions are elastic (energy-conserving), they individually lead to typically only very small deflections in the direction of motion Thus, the trajectory of a charged particle is influenced by many simultaneous, small angle deflections in its
direction of motion.
From the above arise important consequence as far as plasma is concerned. The localised magnetic field arising from initial micro-currents, will exert certain amount of a feedback on the original particles’ Brownian motion, bringing more orderly flow to the electrical charges, in turn producing even stronger currents and magnetic fields, until eventually plasma is turned into orderly, collisionless multi layered flow. The magnetic field so created, may appear to be a frozen field carried by plasma, but in reality is a result of number of factors brought into steady orderly state by negative feedback. Further more, it may be assumed that under such condition, an outward orderly expansion of plasma gas is imperative as it is propelled by the ‘electric charge – magnetic field’ interaction.
Gravity force may impede on this self propulsion, but as gravitation forces weaken plasma flow will accelerate. This is one of the properties of the solar wind. The energy required for whole process comes from the thermal energy of plasma particles.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby solrey » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:19 am

Thanks Anaconda. :)

I'm kind of surprised by his responses, actually.

Leif Svalgaard (00:42:06) :

solrey (18:25:10) :
The Ion and Neutral Camera images suggest that the solar wind’s interaction with the interstellar medium is instead more significantly controlled by particle pressure and magnetic field energy density.
Precisely, the magnetic field is responsible for the interaction.

toroidal ring current surrounding a spherical double layer (heliosheath) within a galactic “Bennett pinch” (indicated by the surrounding charged particle’s high temperature and pressure, and apparently strong magnetic field).
As you say, the ring current is generated by the strong magnetic field.

(Leif's responses in italics)

I didn't think there'd be any agreement, but there it is acknowledging the ring current. And no arguments against the double layer or Bennett pinch? From Leif?

Who are you and what have you done with our skeptic?
What's that? You say your name be Facts?
I thought I recognized you, ya cruel, evil thing...no skeptic can match your powers of observation, logic and reason. Oh, the humanity.
(covers eyes)
I can't look.
(peek)
:lol:

btw anaconda, I was just warming up...
Let's see how he responds to the follow up:

solrey (05:42:18) :

Mr. Svalgaard, I think you forgot one important detail,

The map we’ve created from the images suggests that pressure from a hot population of charged particles and interaction with the interstellar medium’s magnetic field strongly influence the shape of the heliosphere.


that detail is “pressure from a hot population of charged particles…” in addition to the magnetic field influencing the spherical shape of the heliosphere.
(it’s not just a band of ENA’s that was discovered)
They have also described filaments of charged particles in the ribbon/belt, which are field aligned electric currents, a.k.a. Birkeland currents.

Mr. Svalgaard, when you say,

"Precisely, the magnetic field is responsible for the interaction."

" As you say, the ring current is generated by the strong magnetic field."

you seem to fail to consider the other half of the equation…the charged particles in the surrounding interstellar medium.

I’m curious about your thoughts on the spherical shape of the heliosphere, which prompted the declaration, “These images have revolutionized what we thought we knew for the past 50 years.”.

peace


Bases loaded, he steps to the plate...a curveball hangs on the outside corner, kapow...It's going, going.... ;)
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby MGmirkin » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:54 am

solrey wrote:Who are you and what have you done with our skeptic?

You get the MST3K award for the day.

*Laughs* :lol:

Very good,
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby MGmirkin » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:59 am

Decided yesterday to pull all the various articles together... Here's the result:

(Cassini and IBEX Set to Rewrite the Textbooks on the Solar System)
http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/cassi ... lar-system

Doesn't make any terribly bold claims or interpret things (more data needed for that, I think)... But does basically summarize the results and the reactions of surprise, dismay and "WTF is this??" "How could we be SO wrong??"

Just kind of a scientific version of a "clips show." The best quotes and explanations of the situation.

Best,
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby Anaconda » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:10 am

Hi solrey:

You do an excellent job continuing the discussion with Dr. Svalgaard over at Watts Up With That?.

solrey reports:
I didn't think there'd be any agreement, but there it is acknowledging the ring current. And no arguments against the double layer or Bennett pinch? From Leif?


I agree those are significant acknowledgments, but now Svalgaard has followed up and the responses are the same variety as he has given in the past when confronted with Plasma Cosmology ideas:

Svalgaard presents a commenter's statement:
NASA: “Moreover, electric current causes magnetic fields (see Electromagnetism)…”
Galactic magnetic fields are caused by galactic electric currents.


Svalgaard responds:
In general, it takes an electric current to create a magnetic field is ordinary life [and that was what NASA's piece was about].

In cosmic plasmas the magnetic field is the cause of the currents in material moving relative to the magnetic field.


Dr. Leif Svalgaard denies the fundamental role of electric currents in space. Svalgaard will acknowledge electric currents in space, but only as a weak secondary process that is derivative of magnetic fields and kinetic motion.

Obviously, this is a fundamental distinction from the Electric Universe model.

Svalgaard is a follower of Eugene N. Parker, the astronomer who coined the term "solar wind" and the "Parker spiral" is named in his honor. Parker still maintains to this day that electric currents are secondary effects of magnetic fields. This is the "frozen in" magnetic field line argument that has been considered, here, and in other forums and dismissed as an artifact of the mistaken assumption of perfect electrical conductivity of tenuous space plasma, zero resistivity, i.e., superconductors, but Svalgaard persists, as it is the "last line of defense" for excluding consideration of electrical currents in equal measure with magnetic fields in astrophysical science, and is in accord with the dean of American astrophysical science, Eugene N. Parker.

Svalgaard goes on to address solrey's questions:

Svalgaard presents solrey's statement:
Mr. Svalgaard, I think you forgot one important detail,
that detail is “pressure from a hot population of charged particles…”


And Svalgaard responds:

Svalgaard responds:
There is a misconception here [and an important one]. The ISM and the solar wind are both electrically neutral, as is a plasma in general. The pressure has nothing to do with the electrical properties of the medium. It comes from the gas being hot. The same process takes place around the Earth where the pressure of the particles in the solar wind is balancing the pressure of the Earth’s magnetic field.


Svalgaard essentially repeats his "electrically neutral" stance and promotes Parker's ""hot gas" and "kinetic" arguments. The "gas being hot" and thus has "kinetic" energy is almost exactly the same rational Parker used back in the 60's to explain the "solar wind", while this posture has been dismissed in many astrophysical circles, where the helio current sheet is acknowledged to be an electric current, hence the term "current" as in electrical current, apparently Svalgaard clings tightly to this idea contrary to the present body of scientific evidence.

Dr. Svalgaard goes on to address another of solrey's concerns:

Svalgaard presents solrey's question:
I’m curious about your thoughts on the spherical shape of the heliosphere, which prompted the declaration, “These images have revolutionized what we thought we knew for the past 50 years.”.


And Svalaard responds:

Svalgaard responds:
There is the usual NASA hype here. The shape of the heliosphere is determined by the pressure balance between the ISM and the solar wind and the solar wind moves 20 times faster than the relative speed of the Sun and the ISM, so will be the determining factor, so one would not expect a long comet-like tail. Especially not, since the interstellar magnetic field is not aligned with the direction in which the Sun is moving.


Svalgaard chalks it up to "hype", ignoring the unanimous declaration that the models were wrong. (Where is Svalgaard's model and prediction based on that model?) This is to subtly imply that "I knew it all the time" what it would look like, and more important, that the scientific understanding of solar system astrophysics has not greatly changed from the 1970's, even 1960's, when "hot gas" and "kinetics" was the primary focus and electromagnetism was given little if any consideration.

Of course, Svalgaard also ignores his own prior statement in the same comment thread that the heliosphere resembles the Earth's magnetosphere, i.e., like a "comet" which gives the lie to his 'hype" excuse (and also gives evidence to Svalgaard's questionable ethics, I've caught Svalgaard in outright lies in prior debates, like seriously distorting Hannes Alfven's work at the same time as saying he was a friend of Alven's -- some friend).

(I have seen Svalgaard use this "hype" excuse before where he wanted to downplay the "surprises" articulated by the authors of the report in question. I "knew it all the time" is Svalgaard's mantra.)

(Dr. Svalgaard is Swedish by origin, but seems to have sold his soul when he came to America, as I have caught him distorting the work of Hannes Alfven, his fellow countrymen, and aping the American old bulls in astrophysics.)

My suspicion about Svalgaard is that he knows Watts Up With That is the most popular astrophysical website in the world (averages 15,000 hits a day) and knows that a general readership (that challenges the scientific dogma of global warming) not steeped in astronomy's dogma would be open to consider the scientific rational and reason of alternative scientific ideas opposed to the status quo of "modern" astronomy. In that sense, Svalgaard is a self-appointed "enforcer" to keep general readers (but still interested enough to follow a scientific website) from picking up rival ideas to "modern" astronomy.

For should the general population become aware of the scientific gaps in status quo theory and presented a readily understandable theory in alternative, this could upset the apple cart with all the far-reaching consequences of that happening.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby solrey » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:29 pm

Yo, anaconda. I'm very curious as to what his response will be to this:

solrey (19:31:40) :
Leif Svalgaard (14:47:33) :
I was one of the discoverers of the HCS, so may be permitted to comment on it.


Oh Leify…you gotta lotta ’splainin’ to do.

From Wiki:
“The heliospheric current sheet was discovered by John M. Wilcox and Norman F. Ness, who published their finding in 1965.


Nowhere in the Wiki entry does it mention the name “Svalgaard” or “Leif. Also, the list of published papers on Leif’s own website begins with:

First published paper:

Svalgaard, L., Sector Structure of the Interplanetary Magnetic field and Daily Variation of the Geomagnetic Field at High Latitudes, Geofysiske Meddelelser, R-6, Danish Meteorological Institute, 1968.


Post graduate work, I presume.

Three years after the published discovery of the HCS from 1965.

Second published paper:

Svalgaard, L., Interplanetary Sector Structure during 4 Solar Cycles,
Bulletin of the American Astronomical Society, vol. 4, p.393, 1972.


Do any of those first two papers even mention the HCS?

Care to give a citation, backing the voracity of your announcement of being a pioneer in the discovery of the HCS?
BTW, the same Wiki entry correlates magnetic fields with electric current.

Near the surface of the Sun, the magnetic field produced by the radial electric current in the sheet is of the order of 5×10^−6 T.


On the same entry, we discover the inward directed electric current of the HCS:

The electric current in the heliospheric current sheet is directed radially inward, the circuit being closed by outward currents aligned with the Sun’s magnetic field in the solar polar regions. The total current in the circuit is on the order of 3×10^9 amperes. As a comparison with other astrophysical electric currents, the Birkeland currents that supply the Earth’s aurora are about a thousand times weaker at a million amperes. The maximum current density in the sheet is on the order of 10-10 A/m² (10-4 A/km²).


Ever hear of “counter-flowing electrons”?

You also stated that the heliosphere was analogous to the Earth’s magnetosphere, which is elongated/teardrop shaped, yet the data indicate that the heliosphere is in fact spherical. You invoked mechanical gas dynamics to explain the spherical form, yet that is the basis of the same theory that has been proven incorrect, in regards to the elongated/teardrop shape, and the “belt/ribbon”…at least.

I now believe you are beyond disingenuous and view your credibility as less than nil, unless you can prove the voracity of your claim regarding the discovery of the Heliospheric Current Sheet.

The proof is in the puddin’, “Doctor” Svalgaard.

peace


I have nothing pleasant to say at this time. :x
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby squiz » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:22 am

Well here it is..
ELECTRIC SUN VERIFIED
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=74fgmwne

BTW good job on the forums guys, the response are very telling. Now we seem to be getting more emotional responses rather than scientific attempts to refute. As expected.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby Siggy_G » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:10 am

Svalgaard responds:
There is a misconception here [and an important one]. The ISM and the solar wind are both electrically neutral, as is a plasma in general. The pressure has nothing to do with the electrical properties of the medium. It comes from the gas being hot.


I don't get his reasoning... When referring to gas and pressure, one assumes a closed system, where the gas is evenly filled and spread out within the entire volume (e.g. a balloon). The pressure is practically the effect of particles' momentum. The solar system isn't filled with gas in the same way, where there is even distribution and pressure throughout the radius. As pointed out by others, the pressure at the heliosphere should then be shaped like a teardrop or comet tail, not like a spherical force field.

And... why is a *neutral* gas at the heliosphere affected by an interstellar *magnetic field* in the first place, according to him...?
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby vukcevic » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:41 am

Some 25 years ago NASA’s sketch of heliosphere
Image
recognized that the solar magnetic field lines as well as HCS form closed loops.
If so, it would enable existence of electro-magnetic feedback not only from planetary magnetospheres but also from the interactions with galactic currents and magnetic fields, as I have suggested some time ago in my hypothesis related to the solar cycle periodicity. The hypothesis is persistently rejected by Dr. Svalgaard on grounds that neither of the above (SMF & HCS) form a closed circuit, hence feedback is not possible.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby squiz » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:32 am

Image

Note that as a rotating charged body the Sun’s magnetic field is not aligned with the interstellar magnetic field and Z-pinch axis. The Sun’s magnetic field only has influence within the tiny heliosphere but it is modulated by galactic currents. Alfvén’s axial “double layers” (DLs) have been included although their distance from the Sun is unknown. DLs are produced in current carrying plasma and are the one region where charge separation takes place in plasma and a high voltage is generated across them (see discussion below).

The Z-pinch model offers a simple explanation for the “giant ribbon” found wrapped around the heliosphere. The Z-pinch is naturally aligned with the interstellar magnetic field. Solar “wind” ions are scattered and neutralized by electrons from the Birkeland current filaments to form ENA’s coming from the Z-pinch ring, a giant ring about the solar system and orthogonal to the interstellar magnetic field.

The Sun’s heliospheric circuit is connected to the galaxy via the central column and the disk of charged particles. The current path is traced by magnetic fields. The “open” helical magnetic fields discovered high above the Sun’s poles by the Ulysses spacecraft are supportive of Alfvén’s stellar circuit model. And the solar “wind” would seem to connect to the broader disk of charged particles about the heliosphere.

Given the detail in this model we should expect, as more data comes in, that researchers may find in the ENA “ribbon,” bright spots, filamentary structures, and movement of the bright spots consistent with rotation of Birkeland current filament pairs and their possible coalescence.


From Wall's article. I thought my little post up there may get passed over.
This explains pretty clearly the "ribbon" of ENA's and Cassini's Wider "band" of charged particles.
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby Birkeland » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:56 am

Anaconda wrote:Dr. Leif Svalgaard denies the fundamental role of electric currents in space. Svalgaard will acknowledge electric currents in space, but only as a weak secondary process that is derivative of magnetic fields and kinetic motion.

Obviously, this is a fundamental distinction from the Electric Universe model.

Svalgaard is a follower of Eugene N. Parker, the astronomer who coined the term "solar wind" and the "Parker spiral" is named in his honor. Parker still maintains to this day that electric currents are secondary effects of magnetic fields.

Svalgaard is committing the stolen concept fallacy by placing a secondary derivative concept in front of its existent - a violation of the law of causality. It could be argued that violating the laws of logic is crackpottery ;)
"The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see" - Ayn Rand
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Re: Giant Ribbon Discovered at Edge of Solar System

Unread postby jjohnson » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:01 am

The argument by Dr. Sv regarding neutrality of plasmas is disingenuous at best (and dishonest at worst). You can and ordinarily do have neutral plasmas in space which are weakly ionized - i.e., only a fraction of the atoms have been ionized or disassociated into (lighter) electrons and (heavier) ions, and the rest of the particles are atoms or molecular species. This can and does include chunky stuff like dust, grains, ices, rocks, planets...

This overall numeric neutrality of species in a plasma in no way prevents there being active electron flows in one direction and counter-flowing, oppositely-charged ions in the other, which in the standard physics lexicon describes electric currents. It promotes it. Imagine that, Mr. Wizard!! (Sorry.) My guess is that the Universe is overall charge neutral, but let's treat that as only the wildest of guesses, because something not-in-evidence yet moves all this stuff from place to place. Plasmas work the way they do, and that way is qualitatively different from non-ionized fluids, precisely because they are ionized to one degree or another, with all the complex EM phenomena arising from that singular difference from condensed matter fluids. They are not different matter; they are composed of the exact same matter as regular stuff everywhere is. It is its state that is different, which is why Alfvén recanted his MHD work's applicability to plasmas, anywhere. Plasma is not merely a "hot gas", gravitationally-driven only, no matter what the old guard wants people to believe. The heliosphere is not a "hot gas bubble" that our sun has "blown" in the interstellar medium, like bubble gum. It is a stable, flexible, complex and dynamic structure interacting magnetically and electrically with its local plasma environment

If I, a layman and an old guy, can understand this reasonably well, anyone can. Here I am, preaching to the choir again. Nonetheless, tiny chinks may be starting to cautiously appear in mainstream communications. Just in case, you guys might want to think about what you'll be writing about if the establishment actually does suffer the desired outcome of the dreaded "paradigm shift". At least you'll be lookin' pretty good!
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