Detecting the energy source for the sun

[Drethon]

Yeah, AC is unlikely to be powering the universe as AC is power oscillating forward and backward, not actually flowing in one direction.

Also, I have a bit of a hard time seeing how the power source for a star would work in three dimensional space as the conduit that conducts charge one direction can not conduction charge in another direction. All electronic devices has two wires, one for supplying charge and one for returning it...

[Drethon]

This makes me wonder if in some way the electrical instability that causes a nova could actually be a star that has lost too much of its charge and is recharging, this would allow for a reversal of the charge flow and would not require current to flow both ways at the same time...

[Osmosis]

This can be another indication of pulsating dc. A simple neon-tube relaxation oscillator is an example. Everything scales!

[mharratsc]

As to AC or DC- I think there's a bit of a difference between plasma carrying current/ions between dissimilar potentials, and your basic average conductive circuit. Twisting strands of plasma carrying ions one direction and electrons another... I dunno if it would be possible for it to alternate current like that :\ I think of it more as direct current of varying power.

As for the fission/fusion argument: the Electric Sun theory states that neither fission nor fusion 'power' the Sun, but rather that it is powered by extrasolar or galactic Birkland currents carrying power to the Sun. As for nuclear effects at the Sun, they would have to be fusion. This is how the heavy elements form on the surface of the Sun (in the corona I believe?) where the electrical stress is the highest.

[davesmith_au]

I think of it more as direct current of varying power.

Mharratsc is quite right. AC (Alternating Current) is only a man made phenomenon, that is it is a product of the way we generate electricity in our power stations. The frequency is a product of the number of pole pairs and the speed of the generator. In the US, 60 Hz is the norm, and single pole pair (/phase) generators turning at 3600 rpm result in this frequency. In Australia, our 50 Hz is a result of the same (style of) generators turning at 3000 rpm. The universe is varying power DC (Direct Current).

[Anaconda]

Dave,

Your explanation is satisfactory and I have no concrete reason to doubt it.

I do have a couple of questions, however. A pulsar has a pulsation, some at significant rates (1000 times a second). Don Scott has hypothesized a relaxation oscillator, but didn't offer a physical description of the astronomical object (that I'm aware of) that would generate this relaxation oscillator effect. I wonder if a pair of binary stars with the right balance could achieve this effect?

(Conventional astronomy has hypothesized a so-called "neutron" star. I find this explanation completely unsatisfactory for the reasons stated by Don Scott and others.)

It would seem a beneficial exercise to attempt to hypothesize the physical composition of a pulsar from an Electric Universe perspective.

I'm left wondering what would be the result of a binary pair in equipoise? How would the current flow between the two stars and then on outward from the pair?

And, here is where the AC/DC issue comes into play -- how does the Electric Universe perspective explain the polarity reversal observed and measured on the Sun and suspected, here, on Earth from the geological evidence? Also (this may be beyond answering), if galaxies wind-up, how do they wind-down? I ask this because someone posed the metaphor that electromagnetic phenomenon (galaxies, stars) are like eddies in a stream. It seemed like an intriquing metaphor and I wanted to see if it actually could stand up in the Electric Universe perspective. So, I hypothesized (I use the term loosely) that electric current could "flow through" a galaxy one way while winding up, out the spin axis, but reverse "flow through", out the arms, when the galaxy begins to winding down (I'm only thinking out loud).

Dave, could you help me out, I'd be much appreciated to hear your thoughts on the matter.

[Drethon]

Hmm, that did make me think. The universe is not AC on the scale that our AC power is but what about AC power with a wavelength of millenia instead of fractions of a second? It would still be AC but even measurements of years would make the power appears to be DC just like measuring our AC power over a millisecond would appear to be DC...

[Anaconda]

Hmm, that did make me think. The universe is not AC on the scale that our AC power is but what about AC power with a wavelength of millenia instead of fractions of a second? It would still be AC but even measurements of years would make the power appears to be DC just like measuring our AC power over a millisecond would appear to be DC...

Drethon:

Yes, that is the idea I was getting at. We know that time is scale dependent in electromagnetism, i.e. that in plasma experiments in the laboratory processes and phenomena last miliseconds and at the scale of galaxies it can last billions of years. Also, in way of an additional example, we know that the majority of the time negative lightning sends electrons into the ground, but we also know occasionally positive lightning sends ions into the ground. Also, while Birkeland currents send electrons into the atmosphere, there can be an ion "plume" above the poles into space. It seems there are any number of examples of "reverse polarity", where for brief times the current seems to flow "backwards" against the general flow.

(Again, to play up the metaphor, we know that in limited amounts water will briefly flow back up against the dominant current usually to end in a...you guessed it...spiral shaped eddie.)

Now, I'm not saying I'm right, but it seems these instances of reverse polarity should be explained to further flesh out electromagnetic dynamics in our environment.

Another example, which gets back to the Sun, which is the topic of this thread: Energy, by and large, is released in the solar wind out through the equator at roughly the same plane as the Sun's heliopheric current sheet. Observation & measurement of stars shows occasionally in young stars a spiral flare out from the equator of the star, in essence a kind of heliopheric current sheet in "glow" mode (Birkeland was able to achieve the same effect with his terrella experiment). Interestingly enough, young stars are also observed to emit energy as a flare out their spin axis, much as galaxies are noted to emit electromagnetic "jets" out their spin axis.

So we really do have observation & measurements (in stars, anyway) that electromagnetic energy can be emitted both off their equitorial plane and off their axial plane. It would seem that they don't do both at the same time, rather it's one or the other, and possibly this is a sign of overall current flow into and out of the star.

Energy flow out of the polar axis suggests active energy input from the surrounding interstellar medium which "loads up the star with energy" until it is emitted out the polar axis. On the other hand, passive energy input (a lower amount of energy) causes the star to release electromagnetic energy out the equitorial plane and a "drift current" of electrons into the polar regions of the star. Interestingly, the Sun's solar wind is charged sperated equal amounts of electrons and ions. This seems to suggest that the Sun is giving off more matter (in the form of ions) than it is taking in through its polar axis. This further suggests that the Sun does give off matter in a way that if left unchecked would eventually diminish its matter content (stars still have a beginning, middle, and an end).

Would stars that are emitting from their polar axis, if observed & measured, be found to be taking in equal mounts of electrons and ions, or even more ions than electrons?

Could this suggest that stars not only have a beginning, middle, and, an end, but also undergo cycles of storage and discharge, as a result of a kind of reverse polarity? And could this be an equilalence to when the Earth has a polar ion "plume" as opposed to aurora, or negative lightning as opposed to postive lightning? Again, I'm thinking out loud, here, so no need to worry about disagreeing.

Again, if this seems to happen on a planetary scale and on a stellar scale, could it happen on a galaxy scale?

(Going beyond the observational edge, if you will, could there be an up-current area where a river of exhausted galaxies exist (or existed) that have already wound-down and a down-current area of new galaxies?)

(Really stretching it, could there be a directional flow to "our" part of the Universe, newer galaxies down-stream and older galaxies up-stream? Would this actually be detectable? And if it was ever detectable would that invalidate the so-called "big bang"?

So-called "modern" astronomy has identified...what else..."dark" flow, which suggests broad swaths or regions of the Universe flow. So-called "modern" astronomy has identified "super winds" that likely are intragalactic Birkeland currents of electron/ion "flow", so it seems this little metaphor, electromagnetism is like an "eddie in a stream" can possibly take us much farther than initially thought possible.

Such are the questions that can be asked in an Electric Universe.

Are the mind-numbing possibilities inherent in an Electric Universe that don't rely on a menagerie of impossible exotics, conjured out of "new physics" the key to enticing more astronomers to become disillusioned with what passes as "modern" astronomy?

Just thinking out loud.

[FS3]

The standard-model is dead, long live the standard-model!

Everytime when new data seems to contradict Eddington's ancient model of some "fusion inside" stars there is a new "adaption" at hands - so trying to give another attempt to "save the makup" of an already dead horse - and pretending that it is still alive and well.

The European space-telescope, COROT, has collected data about more than 300 giant stars for getting behind the mysteries of the oscillations in those celestial bodies and gaining more knowledge about their interior. The results of this survey were manifold although ended in the "usual" summary:

...seems to be more complex. No satisfactory theoretical explanation currently exists for our observations.

Non-radial oscillation modes with long lifetimes in giant stars

Didn't anybody tell them that there are indeed lots of explanations, although electrical in nature?


FS3

[StevenO]

The standard-model is dead, long live the standard-model!

Everytime when new data seems to contradict Eddington's ancient model of some "fusion inside" stars there is a new "adaption" at hands - so trying to give another attempt to "save the makup" of an already dead horse - and pretending that it is still alive and well.

The European space-telescope, COROT, has collected data about more than 300 giant stars for getting behind the mysteries of the oscillations in those celestial bodies and gaining more knowledge about their interior. The results of this survey were manifold although ended in the "usual" summary:

...seems to be more complex. No satisfactory theoretical explanation currently exists for our observations.

Non-radial oscillation modes with long lifetimes in giant stars

Didn't anybody tell them that there are indeed lots of explanations, although electrical in nature?


FS3

There are also still non-mainstream non-electrical explanations :

"variable" stars are adapting to a new stellar "fuel", being a lighter element that gets converted into radiation in the core. (A star converts matter into radiation, starting with the heaviest elements first) A new equilibrium then needs to be found. This process happens mostly in the youngest stars. When a fuel is found that is over-abundant (read: Iron), the star will explode in a supernova(type 1A) to rid its energy.

[FS3]

Hi Steven,

of course, you´re correct...

There are also still non-mainstream non-electrical explanations :

"variable" stars are adapting to a new stellar "fuel", being a lighter element that gets converted into radiation in the core. (A star converts matter into radiation, starting with the heaviest elements first) A new equilibrium then needs to be found. This process happens mostly in the youngest stars. When a fuel is found that is over-abundant (read: Iron), the star will explode in a supernova(type 1A) to rid its energy.

...although this study deals exclusively with RED GIANTS - and according to the belief of the gravitanious apostolate those are "very old stars", at least according to the sequence in the HR.

FS3

[StevenO]

Hi Steven,

of course, you´re correct...

... This process happens mostly in the youngest stars.

...although this study deals exclusively with RED GIANTS - and according to the belief of the gravitanious apostolate those are "very old stars", at least according to the sequence in the HR.
FS3

Indeed , but mainstream also has the stellar development sequence backwards! Red giants are very young stars, just one stage behind infrared glowing dust clouds. I think these new infrared telescopes will find some interesting new discoveries...as usual

[FS3]

Most of all there´s an interesting common pattern, detected by "too many" stars for being pure coincidence. Star-researchers have found a strange cumulation of a dominant 160-Min. frequency all over our galaxy.

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/pro ... id=5364113
http://astronomy.neatherd.org/SOS/SOHO/ ... action.htm

From Helioseismology:

Helioseismology utilizes waves that propagate throughout the Sun to measure, for the first time, the invisible internal structure and dynamics of a star. There are millions of distinct, resonating, sound waves, seen by the doppler shifting of light emitted at the Sun's surface. The periods of these waves depend on their propagation speeds and the depths of their resonant cavities, and the large number of resonant modes, with different cavities, allows us to construct extremely narrow probes of the temperature, chemical composition, and motions from just below the surface down to the very core of the Sun.

Far from the assumption that some "internal" - convectional mechanism or resonant cavities - are responsible for that similar resonating pattern it would be much more concluding that all those suns are triggered by ONE SOURCE, providing them with one "main-frequency". It is not that farfetched to assume that the source of that common pattern likely could be found at the galactic center from where currents stream towards the edge of the disc of our Milky Way.

One source - one rythm.

FS3

[redeye]

Far from the assumption that some "internal" - convectional mechanism or resonant cavities - are responsible for that similar resonating pattern it would be much more concluding that all those suns are triggered by ONE SOURCE, providing them with one "main-frequency". It is not that farfetched to assume that the source of that common pattern likely could be found at the galactic center from where currents stream towards the edge of the disc of our Milky Way.

One source - one rythm.

I was looking at the beach at Burntisland the other day. Burntisland is on the river Forth, which is an Estuary. There are large dunes, on the beach, running lengthwise along the beach caused by the actions of waves, but there are also another pattern of much smaller waves, running across the beach, caused by the flow of water down the estuary and out to the sea. It made me think of the gas giant's lateral banding. The Earth's atmosphere seems to form a series of concentric shells with no evidence of this lateral banding. Could the lateral banding be an interference pattern caused by Jupiter and Saturn being embedded in the "interstellar current sheet" as well as the heliospheric current sheet due to their immense size.

Cheers!

[FS3]

Hi redeye,

thanks. If I have a problem nature helps me often providing lots of clues and insights. Watching nature can be your best teacher!

Did you mean those:?


Your insight could be an interesting approach towards that phenomenon, indeed. Although the heliosphere protects the solar system against interstellar radiation like our magnetosphere protects Earth I could imagine that there are ceartain effects of interferences, as our heliospheric "bubble" is nothing solid but flexible, and therefore should produce all kinds of vibriations inside as well.

Perhaps it would be interesting to calculate the relation between the path of e.g. Jupiter (full circle) and the windspeeds on that gasous giant. Or, likewise, looking at the the rotation speed of Jupiter. Keep in mind that our Sun itself develops different rotational speeds at the Equator and her poles. For taking the electric interaction we should as well remember that the solar-wind (aka current) is not exactly radial in nature but twisted like a ballerina´s skirt.

Just my 1.618033 cents...

FS3