The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar models.

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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:57 pm

marv TO wrote:
Michael Mozina wrote:
IMO solar physics is the key that is likely to unlock the door for the mainstream to start publicly embracing EU/PC theory. There are just too many obvious influences of electric fields in the solar atmosphere to keep ignoring them indefinitely.


My experience is that "solar physics" is viewed as a science exclusive-to-itself, i.e. highly specialized domain which only "experts" can comprehend. They (solar physicists) will never dethrone/displace themselves from their own specialization. They are too conceited to ever again learn the subject anew.
Nevermind the incredible SAFFIRE project. ((EU Team)) needs carry the torch alone.

I think correlating Solar Events with Comet/Asteroid approaches and Terrestrial Earthquakes would be much more persuasive in the public eye, i.e. Ben Davidson research https://youtu.be/yBvo7lvfg8Y

-Hail from Toronto.Canada!


I agree with you that solar physics is a specialized field unto itself, but I think that actually works in our favor in this case. Solar physicists have already become very interested in the Sun/Earth weather connection and they seem to be more open to acknowledging the role of electric fields in solar physics than most astronomers have been willing to embrace large scale electric fields in space. For instance, Eugene Parker has written and published at least two papers back in the 1950's related to electric fields and their role in solar flares. I think there's more openness in field of solar physics toward embracing and discussing electric fields than in other areas of astronomy. If they come completely out of the closet based on what they discover from these now solar probes, they won't likely be swayed back into submission by the larger body of astronomers into dismissing their own findings. They will go where the solar probe evidence leads them IMO.

Once you start to recognize that solar atmospheric physics is driven by electric fields, it's hard not to wonder what else in space is influenced by electric fields and what else might be better explained by the inclusion of large scale electric fields in space.

Black holes are one of those areas of astronomy that are getting very difficult to explain by the LCDM model and by gravity alone. The masses and spin rates involved have to be far greater than were ever first imagined, often exceeding the Eddington limit on growth, mostly because they have "assumed" that all x-ray and high energy output from the objects have to be explained by gravity alone. Even introducing some small amount of influences of electric fields would take off some of the pressure and allow black holes to be less massive and still produce the same high energy output. I think that's one area of astronomy that would dramatically benefit by the inclusion of more influence of electric fields.

On the other hand, inflation, dark matter and dark energy fields of astronomy are likely drag their feet for as long as they possibly can, kicking and screaming all the way. The handwriting however is already on the wall. DM research in particular has been a total and complete bust over the last few decades. They've spent billions on their research over the last 85 years and they still have no logical explanations to offer for galaxy rotation patterns and lensing studies. It's starting to become uncomfortable now. They can't even budge a few percentage points on the percentage of exotic forms of DM however without totally destroying the entire LCDM cosmology model, so pure denial of their baryonic mass estimation problems has now become the norm. They must know damn well that their mass estimates based on luminosity are inherently flawed, but they really don't know how to "fix" that problem without bringing down the whole LCDM model.

IMO it will probably take the 'discovery' of ever more distant "mature" galaxies in JWST images to finally take down the LCMD model, but I have the distinct feeling that solar physics will lead the way towards it's eventual demise by first embracing the larger role of electric fields in space.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:14 pm

BeAChooser wrote:True enough. Although they would argue that's not true ... using their many gnomes as proof.


Ya, but they can't defend those models very well anymore in a real public debate on those topics. That's why they have to ban all EU/PC proponents from their websites. I've been posting to the physics forum over at reddit recently and even particle physicists are getting squeamish about trying to defend exotic dark matter claims of the LCMD model. They typically punt the first time you post a few links to some of the problems associated with the baryonic mass estimation techniques based on luminosity that are used in astronomy today. They avoid that topic like the plague.

Dark energy is also going to take a huge hit if that recent quasar finding holds up to a larger study with more data points. It's bad enough trying to explain how any form of energy would remain constant over multiple exponential increases in volume, without having to try to explain how it becomes ever more dense with exponential increases in volume.

That finding also calls into question the entire expansion interpretation of photon redshift. The expansion interpretation of redshift *failed* to correctly predict SN1A observation so they "fixed" that serious problem by adding 70 percent metaphysical nonsense to an already mostly metaphysical model, and then within 20 years even that metaphysical kludge looks to have failed to correctly predict distant quasar data. That's two major failures of the expansion interpretation of photon redshift in just two decades. Meanwhile scientists like Chen have already documented the fact that the number of free electrons in a plasma is directly correlated to amount of plasma redshift observed in the lab. That area of astronomy is also falling apart at the seams. The expansion interpretation of redshift simply hasn't lead to any correct "predictions" of any new observation over the last two decades. We're even seeing far more ''mature' galaxies at earlier dates than ever predicted based on the expansion interpretation of redshift, and that problem will get much worse once the JWST images start rolling in.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:28 am

Inre: "solar wind speed plateaus at @800 km/sec"

by neilwilkes » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:39 am

BB wrote:
The acceleration of the positively charged particles that make up the solar wind plateaus at the average speed of @800 km/s -- at 9 solar radii.


Really?
800Km/s average solar wind speed? I honestly do not think so - that kind of speed would drive the magnetosphere right down into the atmosphere at current field strengths causing huge geomagnetic storms.
Average Solar Wind speed is much, much lower - nearer to 300Km/s and we are currently coming down from a coronal hole stream impact that temporarily raised the KP index but not to storm levels. 800Km/s on average would be bad.


Sorry, I did not see this comment!

Here is the question I was addressing: In the Electric Sun model, the solar wind accelerates away from the sun because it is made up of charged particles, which are moved by the electric field toward the heliosheath. But do they continue to accelerate on their entire journey toward this virtual electrode?

cont'd
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:21 am

Inre: Does the solar wind continue to accelerate on its entire journey toward this virtual electrode?

In one of Prof. Don Scott's lectures, he made it clear that in the Electric Sun model, it does not. Instead, the solar wind plateaus at roughly 9 solar radii. This is also the closest approach to the sun which the Parker Solar Probe will achieve. I did write the solar wind speed plateaus at "@800 km/sec". This is an average top speed, where the range is 400-800 km/sec, and it is after acceleration, and it does depend on its original velocity.

So I will try sort through the different solar wind speeds.

This is the graph of the solar wind speed from Ulysses:

Image

This shows the fast solar wind at higher latitudes, and slower solar wind "in the tropics," as Don Scott says. There are also structures within the solar wind from flares and cmes -- which some claim "shove" the slower solar wind along and brings it up to higher speeds, and maybe even explains why the solar wind accelerates away from the sun.

Now to sort out the different speeds after acceleration.

cont'd
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40 am

But first, here is an overview by Stephen Smith, which gives an average speed of 700 km/sec, maintained all the way out to the sun's boundary with the ISM:

Electric Sun theory presupposes that the Sun is a positive terminal, or anode, in a complex interstellar circuit. The Sun’s negative pole, or cathode, is a field of charged particles surrounding the Sun’s electric discharge billions of kilometers away. As Thornhill predicted, double layers at the heliosphere’s edge isolate the Sun’s plasma from the ISM.


A dark mode electric discharge radiates from the Sun in all directions. That “solar wind” travels outward to the edge of the Solar System at 700 kilometers per second, where it encounters the heliopause. Heat and pressure cannot explain how charged particles are accelerated as they pass by the planets on their way to the heliospheric cathode.


And if you look at the graph from the data from New Horizons, indeed the solar wind has very consistent speeds all the way out in the region of the Trans-Neptunian objects!

Image
"This figure shows solar wind observations measured by New Horizons from January 1 to August 25, 2015. ...Points closer to the top of the graph correspond to higher-energy particles, and red and yellow colors show a larger number of particles hitting the detector. The particle instruments were shut down during certain spacecraft operations and trajectory maneuvers, resulting in brief data gaps. Image credit: NASA / New Horizons / Southwest Research Institute."
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:23 pm

Here is the lecture by Don Scott which I attempted to paraphrase ( @ -- ).

I will give the various time markers to the slides in his Electric Sun presentation, where he addresses the solar wind.

Don Scott: A Transistor Analogy of THE SUN'S SURFACE | Lecture
channel: ThunderboltsProject
dur. 53:56

https://youtu.be/JsfEG4HzWAY?t=1804
watermark 30:04
SWOOPS data

https://youtu.be/JsfEG4HzWAY?t=2739
watermark 43:39
wind speeds and sunspots

https://youtu.be/JsfEG4HzWAY?t=2870
watermark 47:50
table of proton speeds, electron temp and He content at one Astronomical Unit

I recall Don Scott saying that he used to think the solar wind continued to accelerate all the way out towards its cathode, but now he understands it "to plateau" -- but it must not have been in this lecture, because I can't find it. So where does the solar wind speed plateau?

I am not adverse to someone helping me out with this, you know!
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:41 pm

I will offer this correction for now:

Image

The fast solar wind in the Ulysses graph averages about 800 km/sec at about 9 solar radii, which is what Don Scott said in his lecture.

The slow solar wind accelerates and then "travels outward to the edge of the Solar System at 700 kilometers per second, where it encounters the heliopause."
ref: https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2019/0 ... al-clouds/
"Celestial Clouds" by Stephen Smith

The +ions continue to accelerate away from the sun but plateau at about 9 AU, and maintain consistent speed all the way out to the heliospheric boundary.
ref: just a total guess
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm

But it does look like the speed of the solar ions becomes fairly uniform and all of the structures in solar wind are lost once you get out past the inner solar system:

Because the Sun is the source of the solar wind, events on the Sun are the primary force that shapes the space environment,” Dr. Elliott explained.

“Shocks in the solar wind — which can produce space weather, such as auroras, on worlds with magnetic fields — are created either by fast, dense clouds of material called coronal mass ejections or by the collision of two different-speed solar wind streams.”

These individual features are easily observed in the inner Solar System, but New Horizons didn’t see the same level of detail.

“At this distance, the scale size of discernible solar wind structures increases, since smaller structures are worn down or merge together,” Dr. Elliott said.

“It’s hard to predict if the interaction between smaller structures will create a bigger structure, or if they will flatten out completely.”


Image


Subtler signs of the Sun’s influence are also harder to spot in the outer Solar System. Characteristics of the solar wind — speed, density, and temperature — are shaped by the region of the Sun it flows from. As the Sun and its different wind-producing regions rotate, patterns form.

New Horizons didn’t see patterns as defined as they are when closer to the Sun, but it nevertheless did spot some structure.

“Differences in speed and density average together as the solar wind moves out,” Dr. Elliott said.

“But the wind is still being heated as it travels and faster wind runs into slower wind, so you see evidence of the Sun’s rotation pattern in the temperatures even in the outer Solar System.”


http://www.sci-news.com/space/new-horiz ... 03760.html

That is pretty exciting. Although I don't know what the two main energies of the charged particles means.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:22 pm

Brigit,

Just following the diagrams that you showed..

There seem to be 3 layers of solar wind.
I assume that the central layers aligns with the orbits in the solar system.

The layers may be different charged, due to the effect of the solar magnetic field.
Electrons encounter more magnetic braking than protons and ions.

This creates layers with differences in charge, and these can create currents.
Such currents will concentrate around planets and other physical bodies. Especially if they
have an ionosphere.

It would be interesting to find out how strongly charged these layers are.
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The Data Gateway For The PSP Equipment

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:39 pm

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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:34 pm

http://parkersolarprobe.jhuapl.edu/News ... icleID=120

I know it takes awhile to get back all the data after each pass, but I'm very curious to find out what they're learning from this probe. Granted, it's not getting nearly as close to the sun as it will get in later passes but I suspect they're already receiving some interesting data from the first close encounter, and this one should confirm their earlier results. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the Parker solar probe group meetings. :)
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby neilwilkes » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:22 am

It is fascinating to look closer at the above website, where we read under the heading "The Sun" the following statement:
Dangerous electron and protons are not able to penetrate down to Earth's surface but are forced to move around it by the magnetic field.

Yeah, right - so these particles never get to the surface? Utter twaddle. If this is an example of what they are going to claim/ report then the whole mission is a smokescreen and utterly pointless given that not only do these particles regularly penetrate to surface level, but given the rapidly weakening state of our shield as the poles flip it is only going to get more extreme - but this will falsify the demonization of CO2 and the whole AGW agenda so needs to be ignored given that AGW is a multi-billion dollar a year industry now.
It's amusing in a way - everyone remembers Eisenhower's famous speech warning about the Military-Industrial complex but at the same time how many are aware of the rest of the same speech where he also warns against State-Sponsored "science"? I quote below:
Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded. Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific technological elite.
(my emphasis)
Yet this section has been largely forgotten or ignored - and it must not be. We are in a situation where (as Michael has pointed out repeatedly) tens of billions get squandered on Dark Matter searches which to my mind is akin to spending eye watering amounts of money hunting for Unicorns and sadly so-called "Dark Matter" is far from the only one in the insane attempts to prop us the LCDM theory, which by any empirical method should have been considered as falsified many years ago now yet what is happening? CERN now want an additional £20,000,000,000 for an even larger collider on the grounds that it is necessary - at enormous cost, yet when you read the article there are an awful lot of "coulds", "maybe", "mights" and similar terms for guesswork. This is exactly what Eisenhower warned against - for all the billions they have spent they have produced absolutely nothing, and to describe this proposal - the proposal, mind you -- as "a remarkable accomplishment" (Cern's Director-General, Prof Fabiola Gianotti). Since when has writing a bloody spreadsheet been a "remarkable accomplishment" unless they are referring to the way they have pulled the wool over everyone's eyes yet again?

A monumental waste of money.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:02 am

neilwilkes wrote:It is fascinating to look closer at the above website, where we read under the heading "The Sun" the following statement:
Dangerous electron and protons are not able to penetrate down to Earth's surface but are forced to move around it by the magnetic field.

Yeah, right - so these particles never get to the surface? Utter twaddle....


Unfortunately there's a lot of oversimplified nonsense being sold to us as "science".

In the case of the PSP program, I'm going to wait and see what they come up with before I pass judgement. I've certainly seen far worse programs in terms of money spent on frivolous studies. After looking over the hardware specs on the PSP, I don't think we could have asked for a more comprehensive array of sensors to detect electric and magnetic fields and track particle movements around the probe. Its pretty much an ideal system in terms of it's overall capabilities, and it has the capacity to revolutionize solar physics research. For now I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. :)

FYI, I think one of the most annoying aspects of the proposed new FCC collider is the fact it's being sold under the guise of finding "dark matter", as though the existence of DM is a scientific certainty. It does underscore Eisenhower's concern about "big science", and it's willingness of oversell it's product. IMO however the LHC was pretty successful in terms of testing the standard model of particle physics as well as testing (and obliterating) a number of non-standard SUSY type models. I'd more more inclined to support a bigger collider if they were simply honest about the fact that their primary motive is 'pure scientific curiosity' and they had no idea what they might find.

In terms of *undermining* the whole exotic matter claims, I don't think we could have asked for more than LHC has already delivered. :) At best case a new collider wouldn't become operational until 2050, and by then I think the EU/PC model will dominate astronomy. A bigger collider might be worthwhile in the sense that it may point the way to tying at least three of the four known forces of nature together via the EM field. It can't be a coincidence that slamming electrons and positrons together creates more complex subatomic particles.

I seriously doubt that the PSP team will be willing to discuss their findings until they have a few close passes under their belts and they start to see patterns emerging. Unfortunately that process could drag out for awhile yet. I am however hopeful that they will make some important announcements in the not too distant future that will support one or more electric solar models. Stay tuned.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:31 am

neilwilkes wrote:It's amusing in a way - everyone remembers Eisenhower's famous speech warning about the Military-Industrial complex but at the same time how many are aware of the rest of the same speech where he also warns against State-Sponsored "science"? I quote below:
Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded. Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific technological elite.
(my emphasis)


By the way, if you haven't been following the public articles and blog entries by Sabine Hossenfelder recently, I highly recommend that you check out her most recent comments:

https://backreaction.blogspot.com/2019/ ... igger.html

IMO Sabine is scientific equivalent of Captain Marvel. She's been a very vocal critic of the FCC and she's forcing the physics community to address the most important concerns related to "big science". I think you'll really appreciate her comments and her attitude toward the FCC proposal.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby neilwilkes » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:39 am

Thanks for the pointer, Michael.
I have just ordered her book "Lost In Math" - a classic example of whichh can be found in the book "Gravitation" at https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0691177791/ref=pd_luc_rh_crh_rh_sim_04_01_t_img_lh?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
I notice in it's write-up that it claims
With an emphasis on geometric interpretation, this masterful and comprehensive book introduces the theory of relativity; describes physical applications, from stars to black holes and gravitational waves

(it appeared in a list of recommendations based on the purchase I just made, with no trace of irony as it is exactly the thing she is talking about - there is zero evidence for Black Holes or Gravitational Waves in reality as opposed to mere reifications (but of course you know that already)
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