The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar models.

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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby neilwilkes » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:41 am

Whatever model is finally settled on it needs to take this into account:
https://youtu.be/Ux2xTficGC0
Here is a still from this presentation that I STRONGLY recommend everyone takes a look at.

liquid-sun.jpg


Please do watch the 15 minute presentation from Dr Robitaille as well - I urge you to do this as he completely trashes Kirchoff's "Law", for which there is absolutely no experimental verification so should properly be called a theory and not a law. Dr Robitaille, on the other hand, has proven hardware to his name - can anyone say Ultra High Field MRI?
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:28 pm

neilwilkes wrote:Please do watch the 15 minute presentation from Dr Robitaille as well - I urge you to do this as he completely trashes Kirchoff's "Law", for which there is absolutely no experimental verification so should properly be called a theory and not a law.


I totally agree with him.
Almost all physics is not compatible with Kirchoff's law of black body radiation.
As Robitaille explains: It only works for a special case.

If you have a gas, like hydrogen, you don't get a full spectrum but small spectral lines
that relate to the electron-bands of the hydrogen atom.

The funny thing is that this immediately proofs
that the "perfect black body" cosmic background radiation is not related to hydrogen.
According to the Big Bang, hydrogen is the first element in the universe, and during its
creation hydrogen caused the background radiation.
This all proofs that background radiation has absolutely nothing to do with a big-bang.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:05 pm

by jacmac » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:02 am

Hi jacmac. That was quoted from an article titled "Twinkle Twinkle Electric Star," and here is a continuation of the Langmuir sheath quote:

Charged bodies embedded in plasma create about themselves a protective cocoon of plasma, rather like a living cell wall. This cell wall is known as a Langmuir plasma sheath, or ‘double layer,’ which contains most of the voltage difference between the charged body and the surrounding plasma. Only an electric current sustains the charge separation across the double layer. If the surrounding plasma is moving relative to the charged body, the plasma sheath is drawn out into a teardrop or cometary shape. And if the charged body is rotating it will generate a magnetic field that is trapped inside the plasma sheath. This has led to the misnomer — “magnetosphere” — when referring to a plasma sheath.


To make things more interesting -- as I saw you pointed out on another thread -- there is more than one double layer; but they can all be detected by a change in velocity of the charged particles. For example--

Transition Zone
Image
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:10 pm

jacmac says,
I am saying the sun is of the second type. It is the protective cocoon, we call a "double layer". It is the spherical Langmuir plasma sheath which contains "most of the voltage difference between the charged body and the surrounding plasma".

"It is rather like a living cell wall."



To me, the Langmuir sheath that is most friendly to the cell wall characterization is the heliosphere, where the sun's plasma is separated from the interstellar plasma. (I think that is a fun accident of language too, because in biology, the cell wall is actually where the real chemical action is. I believe the hundreds of receptors on the cell wall direct all of the actions of the DNA.) That sheath is gathering and sending electrons sunward.

But there is also a torus around the sun, with currents punching through the photosphere; and there are two polar double layers, probably contributing power-in (?). And of course, the planets are connected to the sun by flux ropes to and from the sun. As well, the planets are also probably intercepting a lot of sunward electrons, which if true, would modulate solar activity!

In short, I don't envy anyone working on the electrodynamics of the solar electric discharge.

Image
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:18 pm

This is a nice graph too.

Image
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:09 pm

Brigit Bara wrote:This is a nice graph too.

Image


If you follow Robitaille's Sky Scholar videos, you can see a different temperature distribution
that is far more realistic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrYIxKatKio

He observes that the temperature goes down gradually with the distance from the sun.
The spectral lines that astronomers attribute to extreme heat can be attributed to chemical reactions.
This also means that the pressure is much higher.

The corona has clear emission lines.
Spectral lines are related to the energy-state of electrons in a gas/plasma.
I also think that there are free electrons and electro-chemical reactions contributing to certain
spectral lines.

Logically the surrounding environment can not be hotter than the sun,
because you can not have the outside of an oven (or any other object)
have hotter than the inside of an oven.
That is basic thermodynamics.
It is because the energy-state of matter, which we perceive as heat, distributes to its surroundings.

Electrons on the other hand, can be in higher energy states at low temperatures.
This does not make the matter/plasma hotter.
This is possible via low pressure, electric activity, light, etc.
In this case it is likely electric activity.
This electric activity also causes double layers.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:49 pm

I enjoyed that Robitaille presentation earlier this week. Thanks zyxzevyn! It is a wonderful presentation.

Nevertheless, it is not only the sun which has the rapid transition zones and high temperatures in the upper latitudes. The earth has a similar profile.

Image

And I think Venus has a temperature inversion on its night side--along with other interesting atmospheric structures:
Image

wait

Image


Another difficulty for me is this: many of us have watched video clips of the sun at various Angstroms over the years. I must admit the pond ripples were very unfamiliar. I look forward to many more images of concentric ripples on the sun's photosphere. Although I know no one asked me (:
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby jacmac » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:55 pm

Thanks Brigit, for steering me back to Wal Thornhill's Twinkle Twinkle Electric star.
I have reread the article.
You said:
I think that is a fun accident of language too, because in biology, the cell wall is actually where the real chemical action is.

It is not really an "accident" of language.
From:
https://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/whplasma.html
The use of the term "plasma" for an ionized gas started in 1927 with Irving Langmuir (1881-1957), an American whose achievements ranged from the chemistry of surfaces to cloud seeding for promoting rain, and who in 1932 won the Nobel prize for chemistry. Langmuir worked for the General Electric Co., studying electronic devices based on ionized gases, and the way the electrified fluid carried high velocity electrons, ions and impurities reminded him of the way blood plasma carried red and white corpuscles and germs.


Under Solar Magnetism Wal says:
The Sun has a generally dipole magnetic field that switches polarity with the sunspot cycle. Unlike a dipole magnet, in which the field is twice as strong at the poles as at the equator, the Sun has very evenly distributed field strength. This oddity can be explained only if the Sun is the recipient of electric currents flowing radially into it. These magnetic field-aligned currents adjust the contours of the magnetic field by their natural tendency to space themselves evenly over an anode surface.

I suggest that this evenly spaced, over the entire solar sphere, radial inflowing current is evidence AGAINST the circuit diagram of ALFVEN shown at the top of Wal's article.

In his article, Wal clearly speaks of the sun as:
The bright photosphere of a star is an electric discharge high in its upper atmosphere

And
It is clear from the behavior of its relatively cool photosphere that the Sun is an anode, or positively charged electrode, in a galactic discharge.

Should the Parker solar probe give evidence against the positive anode and discharge model of the sun, perhaps
my thoughts( I don't think they can be called a model yet ) might survive.

A few points:
...The sun is a double layer.
...The photosphere, chromosphere, and lower corona are the three main parts.
...The inner sun is a "solid body" some significant distance below the photosphere.
(Wal, using mass calculations and helioseismology say just about the same; the core sun is about 65% of the
suns diameter.)
...The inner solid sun acts as a psuedo anode holding a high charge due to the electric isolation and protection of
the double layer surrounding it.
...Another outer double layer at the heliosphere isolates the solar system from the interstellar medium
allowing the plasma within to concentrate at the core double layer, giving us the sun.

This is, in many ways, already described by Wal and others.
I am trying to get us away from using the anode/cathode models, the "circuit", and the solar "discharge".
We are using terms taken from man made circuits to describe an organic, self organised, plasma object in space.

Hannes Alfven:
a new type of celestial object.

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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:28 am

Brigit Bara wrote:Nevertheless, it is not only the sun which has the rapid transition zones and high temperatures in the upper latitudes. The earth has a similar profile.

I know that astronomy promotes this.
But.. the asteroids are somehow not melting.

That is because this graph is actually not temperature, but related to electrons.
And probably some astronomy pseudo-science.

In low pressure the electrons are free, this is what we call plasma.
In normal physics we would say that the plasma is cold, but some electrons
are in high energetic bands.
The average energy of the electrons and matter is very low though.
And since temperature is directly related with energy, this means that
the temperature is low.

It is even possible to produce light with cold matter,
which how we make LED-lights.
But don't tell astronomers. They will lose their minds.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:39 pm

IMO the biggest question which the Parker solar probe might answer for us is whether the sun's surface acts as an anode or as a cathode with respect to space. IMO the overwhelmingly positive nature of cosmic rays, along with the particle flow movements coming from the sun tend to favor Birkeland's cathode surface model, but I remain open to Juergen's anode ideas, albeit less enthusiastically. Either way, it's impossible for me to look a high energy solar images without seeing the obviously electrical nature of coronal loops and such.

I'm admittedly very excited about this particular satellite program. I think it's one of the best things to happen to solar physics in quite awhile, and even more important than SDO in terms of gathering necessary solar data. Being able to travel so close to the sun opens up a wealth of possibilities that we just didn't have a few years ago. I'm very interested to see the data from the first close pass to the sun, particularly the electric field data.

I just hope they don't choose to "sit on" the data that doesn't seem to make sense to them yet. I'd rather see them release the data as they get it, with or without their "interpretation" of that data.
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NASA rewrites history:

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:33 pm

I do have one serious complaint about NASA's PSP program and they way it's presented to the public:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 ... olar-probe

Parker Solar Probe is named for Eugene Parker, the physicist who first theorized the existence of the solar wind — the Sun's constant outpouring of material — in 1958.


I've read much of his work, and I do like Eugene Parker, but.....

This quote makes is sound as if Parker was the first person in scientific history to predict the existence of solar wind composed of both types of charged particles flowing from the sun when in fact Kristian Birkeland beat him to the punch by over 4 decades. NASA's constant attempt at rewriting history is getting rather old now. They tend to simply gloss over and ignore the work of both Kristian Birkeland and Hannes Alfven and they consistently misrepresent the facts about scientific "firsts". Parker wasn't the first person to make that prediction, in fact he was 40+ years late to the party.

An EU/PC advocate, specifically Kristian Birkeland was the first scientist in history to make that solar wind prediction and he included the math. Furthermore Birkeland also "explained" and simulated the process of coronal heating as well as the constant outflow of particles which *still* (to this very day) remain unexplained phenomenon by the mainstream.

I'm really getting tired of NASA's unethical attempts at rewriting history. :(

https://www.plasma-universe.com/Kristian_Birkeland

"From a physical point of view it is most probable that these new solar rays are neither exclusively negative nor positive rays, but of both kinds";-Kristian Birkeland, "Are the Solar Corpuscular Rays that penetrate the Earth's Atmosphere Negative or Positive Rays?" Videnskapsselskapets Skrifter, I Mat -- Naturv. Klasse No.1, Christiania, 1916.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:32 pm

One possible outcome for Parker is that it will bisect a configuration of double layers, or even a changing configuration of double layers.

Image
image: Safire project

I am not very optimistic about how the data on the charged particles in the solar atmosphere will be handled. I have reason to believe that they will simply plug it into existing computer models. This will result in nothing but an announcement that their models have been improved with more measurements. I would show you why I think that is what will happen, but that would take another 30 min to write up so maybe another time. (It's because that is what they did with solar wind speed data on New Horizons.)
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:31 pm

by Zyxzevn » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:09 pm

Brigit Bara wrote:
Nevertheless, it is not only the sun which has the rapid transition zones and high temperatures in the upper latitudes. The earth has a similar profile.


I know that astronomy promotes this.
But.. the asteroids are somehow not melting.

That is because this graph is actually not temperature, but related to electrons.
And probably some astronomy pseudo-science.

In low pressure the electrons are free, this is what we call plasma.
In normal physics we would say that the plasma is cold, but some electrons
are in high energetic bands.
The average energy of the electrons and matter is very low though.
And since temperature is directly related with energy, this means that
the temperature is low.


It is true that a thermometer in the thermosphere would not read 500-1500 because it is too rarefied and there are not really any collisions of molecules which would give the perception of heat. Nevertheless, the thermosphere is considered to have high temperatures because it is absorbing all of the sun's EUV rays. So earth's atmosphere has an inverted temp profile because it is receiving energy from outside itself. That is also thermodynamics. (If the sun is externally powered then the higher temps in the corona are consistent.)

What I could not remember is how the high temps in the thermosphere are measured. The answer is that it is measured in the infrared band. Now for a reference:


https://www.space.com/7685-earth-upper- ... cally.html
(Warning: the sky is cooling by a factor of ten! CO2 implicated in header but not in article!!! lol)

Planets like Uranus are said to emit more energy than they receive at those great distances from the sun.
Steven Smith:
"Like the other gas giants, Uranus radiates more energy than it receives from the Sun. Saturn, for instance, radiates 2.3 times more infrared than reflection of solar radiation off its cloud tops can explain, while Uranus emits 1.1 times more radiant energy, the majority in infrared."
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:34 am

Brigit Bara wrote:I am not very optimistic about how the data on the charged particles in the solar atmosphere will be handled. I have reason to believe that they will simply plug it into existing computer models. This will result in nothing but an announcement that their models have been improved with more measurements. I would show you why I think that is what will happen, but that would take another 30 min to write up so maybe another time. (It's because that is what they did with solar wind speed data on New Horizons.)


I agree that is a strong possibility, but I'm not sure how they'll deal with the electric field data. If nothing else, that particular data might be useful to *our* community in terms of eliminating one or more possible solar configurations.

The solar wind movements do seem to be congruent with Birkeland's prediction that the sun should emit both types of charged particles toward the Earth. Furthermore, Parker's now famous paper on solar wind is based upon the premise that whatever the heat source of the corona, it's also the source of solar wind. He "assumes' that the EM field could not be responsible for that heating and therefore he tries to chalk it up to "mechanical" Alfven waves. Essentially that's just silly, but his paper does leave the door wide open for pretty much *any* type of homogeneous heat source of the corona as the source of solar wind. I don't think his paper properly explained higher speed "strahl" electrons however, whereas Birkeland's model certainly predicts them, as "cathode rays"/electron beams which have also been confirmed by satellites.

It is of course possible that the Parker solar probe will discover data that is congruent with Juergen's anode model, but my money is on a cathode model based on cosmic ray composition and solar wind directional movements which seem to suggest that both types of particles move *away* from the sun.
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Re: The Parker Solar probe could help eliminate EU solar mod

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:44 pm

by Michael Mozina » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:34 am

I agree that is a strong possibility, but I'm not sure how they'll deal with the electric field data. If nothing else, that particular data might be useful to *our* community in terms of eliminating one or more possible solar configurations.


The solar wind movements do seem to be congruent with Birkeland's prediction that the sun should emit both types of charged particles toward the Earth. ...

It is of course possible that the Parker solar probe will discover data that is congruent with Juergen's anode model, but my money is on a cathode model based on cosmic ray composition and solar wind directional movements which seem to suggest that both types of particles move *away* from the sun.


As I understand it, there are fast electrons from the sun which are emitted and accelerated by even small flares. This is consistent with the theory that the flares are exploding double layers, which supply the power to separate charges and fling them out into space. For the general reader (:

But what this interesting conversation about the namesake of the Parker Probe inspired me to wonder, and what I would like to know is, whether a tenuous electron drift toward the sun can be detected.

In other words, can anything among the payload of scientific instruments detect the drift of electrons in the opposite direction of the solar wind?

Follow up: If the instruments are set up to detect charged particles, but only in one direction, is it possible that the results will be of limited value in answering any question about either an anode or a cathode sun?

My experience is that it is extremely difficult for anyone at NASA to even pronounce the words "electrons" and "sunward" in the same paragraph, let alone sentence. This kind of language is studiously avoided, so in your opinion MMozina (or any one), do you think it will be possible for the instruments to perform any measurements on the movement of electrons sunward?

Any charges at all moving toward the sun may be kind of a headache for them -- unless they can come up with an excuse why that does not mean the sun is an electrode. Maybe that would be the best we might be able to expect for the money (: ?? (:
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