Apollo 15 Farside Communication

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Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Metryq » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:07 am

In "The Cosmic Power Grid" James P. Hogan states:

The existence of a downward electric field above the Earth's surface was first demonstrated in 1803 by a Professor Erman of Berlin, using a gold-leaf electroscope. The field strength has since been measured at 100 to 500 volts per meter on a clear day. (Voltage, also referred to as "potential," is a measure of the difference in electrical "pressure," analogous to a head of water in hydraulics. The field strength expresses the pressure drop per unit of distance through the field, or "potential gradient." In this case, the direction is downward, toward the ground.) The most straightforward explanation would be that it arises from a negative charge carried by the Earth. Nikola Tesla discovered that the Earth constitutes an enormous reservoir of free electrons, and one of his obsessions was to utilize this property for worldwide electrical transmission. In 1971 this finding was repeated for the Moon, when signals from the Apollo 15 command module were received at a time when the craft was behind the supposedly radio-opaque body. They had been carried around from the far side by electric currents in the Moon's surface layers.


Does anyone know the specifics of this? I've tried combing through the "flight journals," but either missed the clues, or the "signals" Hogan mentioned were not voice transmissions. (Or maybe the flight journals are abridged?) I would expect this event to be as noteworthy as the "music" heard by Apollo 10.
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Solar » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:07 am

Probably nothing strange about this save for what people will make of it. Supposedly, only about an hour of complete radio blackout went into effect on the far side. That is not a long time. Meaning that: 'technically', after that hour is past - communications can still occur while a craft is literally still on the 'farside' of the Moon. Two videos are on the page below.

NASA releases recording of 'outer-space type music' from far side of the moon

One of the vids showcases noises from Apollo 10 while on the farside of the Moon. The second video showcase extrapolations of those noises beyond something 'normal' (probably whistler waves imho). So basically, after the one hour period of total radio black out a craft can still be on the farside and receive communication:

Each time Astronauts Borman, Lovell, and Anders vanished behind the far side of the Moon they lost all contact with the Earth for 45 minutes on each of the 10 orbits. During the first long silence the black void crackled with tension until Mission Control in Houston reported, "We've got it! Apollo 8 is in lunar orbit."

"Good to hear your voice," said Astronaut Lovell. - Apollo 8 Man Around the Moon
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Metryq » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:31 am

Thanks, Solar. I'm still curious if there is anything more specific about what Hogan was saying. He made it sound like unambiguous signals from the CSM without any fudging for "horizon effects" or expected LOS/AOS by a couple of minutes.

The "whistlers" on Apollo 10 don't phase me. Some people prefer the sensational, like "UFOs" spotted by Apollo astronauts (such as a spent third stage tumbling in the darkness). I have a five-disc audio CD collection of some of the radio noises picked up by the Voyagers. None of the tracks are labeled as to which planet, or by date. One track sounds very much like the Machine from the movie Contact. I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the Voyager recordings had been a template for the movie sound effects crew.
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Solar » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:58 am

Metryq wrote:Thanks, Solar. I'm still curious if there is anything more specific about what Hogan was saying. He made it sound like unambiguous signals from the CSM without any fudging for "horizon effects" or expected LOS/AOS by a couple of minutes.

The "whistlers" on Apollo 10 don't phase me. Some people prefer the sensational, like "UFOs" spotted by Apollo astronauts (such as a spent third stage tumbling in the darkness). I have a five-disc audio CD collection of some of the radio noises picked up by the Voyagers. None of the tracks are labeled as to which planet, or by date. One track sounds very much like the Machine from the movie Contact. I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the Voyager recordings had been a template for the movie sound effects crew.


Never read anything by Hogan. Its difficult to expect the electrodynamics of the space environment (planets, moons, the Sun, magnetospheres, electric fields, charged particles zipping hither and yon etc) to have no effect on the electrodynamics of communications equipment. Things like crackles, pops, whistles etc would be the norm imho. Especially with th analog equipment of yesterday. Today, digitization filters quite a lot. If the effects are 'organized' i.e. occurring with repeating patterns and regularity; they can be isolated and their cause identified. Not so sure the capability to do that were present back then. Probably not; so even NASA shelved the effects & audio leaving a "mystery" interpretively up for grabs.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Metryq » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:00 am

Solar wrote:Never read anything by Hogan.


I believe he was a member of this forum, but that his posts were lost in some kind of server failure. He got into sci-fi as an office bet that he could write something better than Arthur C. Clarke's 2001: A Space Odyssey. And the "Giants" series was born with Inherit the Stars.

Realtime Interrupt and The Multiplex Man may have inspired the movie The Matrix—which also draws from the much older allegory of the cave in Plato's Republic. Only Realtime Interrupt had a far more compelling and credible scenario than using people as batteries. :roll:

The above-mentioned "The Cosmic Power Grid" is one of Hogan's non-fiction pieces, advocating plasma cosmology/electric universe ideas. Sci-fi novels The Cradle of Saturn and The Anguished Dawn are more Velikovskian than PC/EU, but there is a little PC/EU in there.

In my opinion, his best novel is The Proteus Operation. I'd love to see that done as a movie—if someone could do it "right" and not merely use the title and none of the book.
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Cargo » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:02 pm

What is the mystery here? HARP, HAM, and even old school military band all use signals which are 'bounced' across the curve of the earth along our upper electric spheres. The Moon surely has one.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Metryq » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:42 am

No mystery to this crowd, Cargo. I'm simply trying to find some documentation for Hogan's statement. I wish I could ask him, but he died in 2010.
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby webolife » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:29 pm

The moon has no magnetosphere or ionosphere as we have on earth, rather a thin plasma sheath formed by the interaction of solar wind ions and photoelectrons "ejected" from the surface. Although this lunar plasma sheath extends at most only a few meters above the surface, it would make sense that it could reflect radio signals from the far side to be detectable [albeit significantly distorted] to an earth based receiver.
I would expect that such signals would be distinguishable from solar noise as bursts, wows, or whistles...
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Aardwolf » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:16 am

webolife wrote:The moon has no magnetosphere or ionosphere as we have on earth, rather a thin plasma sheath formed by the interaction of solar wind ions and photoelectrons "ejected" from the surface. Although this lunar plasma sheath extends at most only a few meters above the surface, it would make sense that it could reflect radio signals from the far side to be detectable [albeit significantly distorted] to an earth based receiver.
I would expect that such signals would be distinguishable from solar noise as bursts, wows, or whistles...
The Moon has quite a significant ionosphere. They mainstream can't really explain why because they have the mechanism wrong. Just like everything else while they insist there's no electricity in space.
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Solar » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:08 am

Aardwolf wrote:
webolife wrote:The moon has no magnetosphere or ionosphere as we have on earth, rather a thin plasma sheath formed by the interaction of solar wind ions and photoelectrons "ejected" from the surface. Although this lunar plasma sheath extends at most only a few meters above the surface, it would make sense that it could reflect radio signals from the far side to be detectable [albeit significantly distorted] to an earth based receiver.
I would expect that such signals would be distinguishable from solar noise as bursts, wows, or whistles...
The Moon has quite a significant ionosphere. They mainstream can't really explain why because they have the mechanism wrong. Just like everything else while they insist there's no electricity in space.


ScienceCasts: Mystery of the Lunar Ionosphere

As opposed to ionizing air; the possibility exist that airless bodies offer 'electrostatically' charged dust lifted aloft as the medium that is being ionized to present their particular version of an ionosphere.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby webolife » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:05 am

Oh, I possibly misspoke, but what I tried to say is that the lunar ionosphere is dissimilar to Earth's. But I notice that recent research points to somewhat transient lunar dust ionized by solar wind and radiation up to a few kilometers above the surface. I think of our own ionosphere as a subset of the earth's dipolar magnetic field, lacking on the moon. Lunar surface magnetism can't hold an Earth-like ionosphere in place, as I understand it. I'm certainly open to further elucidation on this however.
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Aardwolf » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:34 am

webolife wrote:Oh, I possibly misspoke, but what I tried to say is that the lunar ionosphere is dissimilar to Earth's. But I notice that recent research points to somewhat transient lunar dust ionized by solar wind and radiation up to a few kilometers above the surface. I think of our own ionosphere as a subset of the earth's dipolar magnetic field, lacking on the moon. Lunar surface magnetism can't hold an Earth-like ionosphere in place, as I understand it. I'm certainly open to further elucidation on this however.
I don't think any research was done regarding the "dust" as such. They just don't have an answer in their electrically neutral universe as usual.

Mile Mathis has an interesting paper on it which is probably the closest to an EU related answer.

http://milesmathis.com/moonion.pdf
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby GaryN » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:48 am

The lunar dust ionosphere has been strongly suspected since the Apollo days.

"Photometric studies of light scattering above the lunar terminator from Apollo solar corona photography"

http://adsbit.harvard.edu//full/1976LPS ... 7.000.html

I believe though that the excess light is from the fluorescence of nanometer size silica particles by solar UV and not from scattering of visible sunlight.
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Solar » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:20 pm

Well that's wierd. NASA developed and launched LANDEE specifically to test Electrostatic Dust Levitation as a possible contributor to horizon glow:

Lunar Atmosphere and Dust Environment Explorer

Short paper of initial results: THE LUNAR ATMOSPHERE AND DUST ENVIRONMENT EXPLORER (LADEE): INITIAL SCIENCE RESULTS. R. C. Elphic et al

Non committal. Too many factors ( micrometeoroid impacts, argon, helium, neon, sodium, potassium) besides the sudden seven-fold increase in dust at 50km.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: Apollo 15 Farside Communication

Unread postby Aardwolf » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:02 pm

Solar wrote:Well that's wierd. NASA developed and launched LANDEE specifically to test Electrostatic Dust Levitation as a possible contributor to horizon glow:

Lunar Atmosphere and Dust Environment Explorer

Short paper of initial results: THE LUNAR ATMOSPHERE AND DUST ENVIRONMENT EXPLORER (LADEE): INITIAL SCIENCE RESULTS. R. C. Elphic et al

Non committal. Too many factors ( micrometeoroid impacts, argon, helium, neon, sodium, potassium) besides the sudden seven-fold increase in dust at 50km.
The "dust" detected, which really seems to be mostly gas, isn't anywhere near dense enough to generate 1000 electrons per cubic centimetre of electrons that were detected previously. Another $270m failure.
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