The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challenge!

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.

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Michael Mozina
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The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challenge!

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:49 am

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... tcount=701
JonesDave116
As for the EU loons; it is easy to see where their nonsense comes from - yet more scientifically impossible woo, based on the nutter Velikosky's unscientific ramblings, and/or a desire to hero worship long dead scientists, whose ideas have long since been shown to be wrong. They have never proposed anything that wouldn't take a competent physics undergrad a few minutes to disprove.
I stumbled into the EU/PC community about 12 years ago, having simply been blissfully ignorant of the whole idea prior to about 2005. I think it took me close to 2-3 years to even begin to have much of a handle on the whole cosmology framework, it's various solar models, and even *a few* of it's many different areas of investigation. It cost me hundreds of dollars to purchase and read Alfven's book Cosmic Plasma, Somov's book on MHD theory, and Peratt's Physics of the Plasma Universe. I also had to slog through Birkeland's free volume PDF too. That sucker is a *hugely* long textbook/encyclopedia volume, but it's actually a fascinating story that gave me wonderful insights into Birkeland's thought processes, his empirical scientific methods, and his team's herculean efforts and sacrifices. It's a great read, but quite time consuming as well.

Only after a couple of years of intense study did I feel like I even began to understand anything at all about the behaviors of plasma, and plasma physics as a science in it's own right. Only after years of effort did I feel competent at all in terms of the physics of plasma, and I started with a decent understanding of EM field theory and several years of calculus under my belt. It was certainly an uphill climb in terms of effort spent, the reading time, and the rereading of pages again and again before I started to understand them. I don't think I've ever spent as much time trying to understand a cosmology theory before, but every part of it fascinated me. I focused most of my time on the cosmology theories by Alfven and Peratt, and the different solar physics theories, particularly Birkeland's stream of successful predictions and high energy solar atmospheric physics. I have read Scott's book and Thornill/Talbot's book, but to this day, I've still not gotten around to even reading Velikosky or *many* other authors who've ever postulated ideas related to electrodynamic theory in space.

One thing that I learned about EU/PC cosmology theory immediately is that the mainstream simply never did their homework on this topic. I kept hearing them erroneously claiming ignorant things, like there "was no math to support EU/PC theory". Obviously they had never read any of Alfven's hundred plus published papers, any of Peratt's published papers, or either of their two books. Peratt's book in particular is *loaded* with math. They hadn't read even Birkeland's work because if had they done so, they'd know damn well that EU/PC theory has included *tons* of math for more than a century. Their problem is that they clearly haven't read it, nor do they understand it. They hadn't read Lerner's work either. For more than a decade now, I've heard the mainstream misrepresent EU/PC theory over and over and over again, like ignorantly and erroneously claiming that EU/PC solar models predict "no neutrinos", and Birkeland supporting three solar models, or Birkeland predicting that only electrons came from the sun. They are *all* so ignorant of the topic that they never even "self correct" themselves either because you never see a mainstream astronomer point out those types of bonehead errors to their own clueless colleagues. Astronomers are like the keystone cops of empirical physics.

The amount of false information and misinformation about EU/PC theory by the mainstream far and away exceeds anything compared to their actual 'correct understanding' of the EU/PC cosmology model. They're just ignorant as all hell and arrogant as all hell to boot.

Their arrogance/ignorance double-combo problem shows up in numerous ways, most typically their desperate need to take the conversation *off the EU/PC topic* and fixate on the individual. Since they don't have a clue about the source material itself, and haven't a clue how to undermine the actual physics or mathematical models used in the EU/PC model, the only thing they can do it attempt to undermine the credibility of the *messenger*. You see that arrogant behavior in every one of their hater posts, with terms like "loons", "cranks", "crackpots", "liars", "deluded", etc, all intended to attack the *person* rather than the physics. That's also why we see that new thread here recently on the topic of 'Are there any EU followers here with physics degrees?' nonsense too. They have an emotional and psychological "need" to believe themselves to be personally superior to the entire EU/PC community in some way, and therefore those are the topics they'd like to discuss, not the actually published work of Alfven, or Peratt, or Birkeland or Lerner or any of the primary authors that began and wrote about EU/PC *cosmology* theory. They'll *occasionally* pick on a fringe author of course, or fixate on some *minor unrelated* sub-hypothesis associated with EU/PC theory, but *almost never* will you see them focus on a problem in Alfven's published papers or his book on this cosmology theory. It virtually never happens because they are *immediately* out of their depth.

I can easily demonstrate this point right now too. I challenge JonesDave116, Bob_Ham and Higgsy to pick out a *few mathematical or physical flaws* in any of Alfven's *many* published papers, or preferably his book Cosmic Plasma, since that particular book is essentially the defining original book of EU/PC cosmology theory. I'll take any criticisms from Peratt's book as well.

Or, you could explain your basic problem with Birkeland's solar model, you know, his *working* model?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m58-CfVrsN4

None of them will rise to the challenge of course. In fact for 11+ years since I first read Alfven's book Cosmic Plasma, I have consistently asked the the "skeptics" to point out such a flaw and I have *never* heard one that even came *close* to holding up to scrutiny. In fact most of the time they simply *ran like hell* like frightened little children from such a *simple* request. This is due to their extreme ignorance of this entire topic. They really don't know squat about it.

Surely JoneDave116 must see himself as at least to the level of a competent undergrad, and my simple request according to him should only take a few minutes of his time so I'm not asking him for the moon. Since Higgsy and Bob_Ham see themselves as our superiors by virtue of their magnificent "physics" degrees, this should be a piece of cake for them too.

Please, but all means, "educate us".

Higgsy
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by Higgsy » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:46 pm

Michael Mozina wrote: Or, you could explain your basic problem with Birkeland's solar model, you know, his *working* model?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m58-CfVrsN4
None of them will rise to the challenge of course.
You know what the problem is with the Birkeland solar model as described in that youtube link? It isn't a solar model. No kidding. It's a demonstration for how charged particles are channelled to the magnetic poles of a planet resulting in the aurora. That's why its called a TERELLA or a PLANETERELLA.

What was Birkeland trying to demonstrate with his terella? That the aurorae are caused by charged particles arising at the Sun arriving at the poles under the influence of the earth's magnetic field. What was Birkeland NOT trying to demonstrate? A model of the sun.

So , like all lab demonstrations of solar system phenomena, it has its limitations, chief of which is that the charged particles in the demonstration are electrons only and are accelerated by a large electrical potential betweeen the large and small spheres; whereas, in the real case, the solar wind is kinetic and neutral, a fact that Birkeland himself predicted. There is no large electrical potential between the Sun and the Earth.

And most importantly, this demonstration does not begin to be a solar model because it is merely a conducting charged sphere. So unless you think that Birkeland believed the sun is a conducting charged sphere, powered heaven knows how, then you are utterly misrepresenting this demonstration as the "Birkeland solar model". And if you do think that, well, words fail me...
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

Michael Mozina
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:49 am

Higgsy wrote:
Michael Mozina wrote: Or, you could explain your basic problem with Birkeland's solar model, you know, his *working* model?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m58-CfVrsN4
None of them will rise to the challenge of course.
You know what the problem is with the Birkeland solar model as described in that youtube link? It isn't a solar model. No kidding. It's a demonstration for how charged particles are channelled to the magnetic poles of a planet resulting in the aurora. That's why its called a TERELLA or a PLANETERELLA.

What was Birkeland trying to demonstrate with his terella? That the aurorae are caused by charged particles arising at the Sun arriving at the poles under the influence of the earth's magnetic field. What was Birkeland NOT trying to demonstrate? A model of the sun.

So , like all lab demonstrations of solar system phenomena, it has its limitations, chief of which is that the charged particles in the demonstration are electrons only and are accelerated by a large electrical potential betweeen the large and small spheres; whereas, in the real case, the solar wind is kinetic and neutral, a fact that Birkeland himself predicted. There is no large electrical potential between the Sun and the Earth.

And most importantly, this demonstration does not begin to be a solar model because it is merely a conducting charged sphere. So unless you think that Birkeland believed the sun is a conducting charged sphere, powered heaven knows how, then you are utterly misrepresenting this demonstration as the "Birkeland solar model". And if you do think that, well, words fail me...
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/Birke ... keland.pdf

It's these types of really *lame*, irrational and simply misleading responses that make it clear that the mainstream never did their homework on EU/PC theory, they don't have a clue about it's history, and they really don't have any idea how previous authors have described it.

I notice that you didn't try to target Alfven because to date not a single individual has ever pointed out a real problem in his work. I guess that "video" was the lowest hanging fruit you could find?

The video isn't a "model" by itself, but in Birkeland's volumes of material, he does present one, and he explains the (internal) energy source too. He called it a "transmutation of elements" since there were no terms for fission and fusion at that time. That was yet *another* successful prediction of his model, along with his successful prediction of both types of charged particles in solar wind, coronal loops, polar jets, cathode rays/electron beams, etc.

What he managed to achieve with experiments of his model in the lab, *blows away* anything the mainstream has ever accomplished in a lab, starting with that full sphere corona you can see in the video and the aurora around the poles of the planet. The mainstream can't even figure out the heat source of the corona yet, 100 years after he built them a working model of how it works, and explained it's heat source to them.

There is most certainly an electrical potential difference between the sun and various planets which is why we observe magnetic ropes connecting the planets to the sun.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 ... gneti.html

The solar wind is *not* electrically neutral. While the slower moving particles may be pretty evenly distributed, you guys always ignore the higher speed electrons which you euphemistically refer to as 'strahl'.

Let's see a *working* mainstream demonstration of even a full sphere corona with their 'model'. Got one?

Michael Mozina
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LCDM, "math bunnies", astrology & empirical physics

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:14 pm

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... stcount=15
grmcdorman:

Absolutely. I find this idea that mathematics, somehow, can't represent reality, or is inferior to qualitative layman's descriptions, fascinating. Posters may remember Micheal Mozina (now banned), who nicely encapsulated this sort of view in a couple of statements:

"Don't trust the math, trust the science"
"math bunnies"

(the latter in response to people referring to his repeated pareidolia as "seeing bunnies").

Thing is, we need the mathematics to get it right; otherwise we'd be still doing astrology. (Oh, wait, most people are ).

Seems to me that most of these people, if they can't understand the math, assume there's something wrong with the math, not them - even when their own skills are demonstrably lacking.
I found this particular recent comment at at ISF to be really quite amusing all things considered, particularly since I got myself banned at JREF for pointing out Clinger's missing math bunny formula to describe a non-zero rate of 'magnetic reconnection" in his vacuum contraption, and for calling him a fraud for pulling a blatant 'bait and switch" routine at the end by trying to add plasma. Clinger and the whole ignorant EU hater posse originally claimed that no plasma was required:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... count=1107
W.D. Clinger:
No. You can recreate the magnetic reconnection shown in Dungey's Figure 1 even if there is no plasma. Dungey himself alludes to that fact. Since the magnetic reconnection can occur even without plasma, your insistence that magnetic reconnection is really a "discharge" in plasma is nonsense---and obvious nonsense, at that.
...
As explained above, your argument is nonsense. The magnetic reconnection described by Dungey occurs even if there is no plasma.
It's frankly a *riot* IMO that Clinger, the high and mighty math professor, painted himself right into a mathematical corner. He failed to produce his *blatantly missing* math formula to describe a non-zero *rate* of magnetic reconnection without plasma. Even after proving Clinger (every hater at JREF) wrong about MR in a vacuum, through math no less, and their complete incompetence as it relates to providing any mathematical support of their bogus MR claims, I'm still somehow the one that still gets accused of lacking math skills. Yawn. The entire hater posse at ISF *never even came up with the promised *MR math bunny in a vacuum formula* to start with! They made absurd and erroneous claims about demonstrating MR with refrigerator magnets in the air, and nonsensical stuff galore, but they all utterly failed to produce anything remotely like a mathematical formula to describe a non-zero rate of magnetic reconnection without plasma as Clinger and the EU hater posse promised for *months* and now *years*.

The really ironic part of that post is the fact that LCMD *is* "math bunny astrology". Both LCDM and astrology describe 'invisible unseen forces' that supposedly dictate the fate of humans on Earth, and they both include nice looking "math bunnies" to make their claims look "legit'. The problem is that neither astrologers or LCDM proponents can demonstrate that any of their claims as to cause have any empirical effect at all in the lab. Neither astrology or LCDM has any practical value whatsoever, and no empirical predictive value, even after spending billions of dollars on their dark matter "math bunny" snipe hunt.

I do in fact "trust the (empirical) science" far more than I trust computer modeled "math bunnies" that require 95 percent ad-hoc placeholder terms for human ignorance.

One working model is way better than a dozen mathematical "hypotheses".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m58-CfVrsN4

I'm not even sure that the mainstream actually has a fully functional pseudoscientific "math bunny" to describe the heat source of the sun's full sphere corona in a computer simulation, but I'm damn sure they don't have a working model of a full sphere corona and aurora based on "magnetic reconnection". Birkeland however created a working model over 100 years ago with electric fields.

Higgsy
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by Higgsy » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:31 pm

Michael Mozina wrote:
Higgsy wrote:
Michael Mozina wrote: Or, you could explain your basic problem with Birkeland's solar model, you know, his *working* model?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m58-CfVrsN4
None of them will rise to the challenge of course.
You know what the problem is with the Birkeland solar model as described in that youtube link? It isn't a solar model...

Snipped for brevity

And most importantly, this demonstration does not begin to be a solar model because it is merely a conducting charged sphere. So unless you think that Birkeland believed the sun is a conducting charged sphere, powered heaven knows how, then you are utterly misrepresenting this demonstration as the "Birkeland solar model". And if you do think that, well, words fail me...
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/Birke ... keland.pdf
I guess that "video" was the lowest hanging fruit you could find?
That video was what you provided buddy. Look above:
"Or, you could explain your basic problem with Birkeland's solar model, you know, his *working* model? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m58-CfVrsN4 None of them will rise to the challenge of course."

If you want me to look at something else, then provide it. You think working physicists spend their time reading newspaper articles about the discredited ideas of famous physicists from 100 years plus ago?
The video isn't a "model" by itself, but in Birkeland's volumes of material, he does present one, and he explains the (internal) energy source too. He called it a "transmutation of elements" since there were no terms for fission and fusion at that time.
That article says he based his prediction of the sun's energy source being "transmutation of the elements" on platinum and uranium appearing in his discharge tube. So, a) do you think that fission or fusion were occurring in his discharge tube, b) do you think fission/fusion in the Sun is powered by electrical discharges and c) do you think platinum and uranium are produced by fusion in the Sun. On the off-chance that you don't know the correct answers, they are no, no and no. So his so-called "prediction" was based on a fundamental misconception of what was happening in his experiment.

That was yet *another* successful prediction of his model, along with his successful prediction of both types of charged particles in solar wind, coronal loops, polar jets, cathode rays/electron beams, etc.
fair enough, apart from cathode rays/electron beams which are, by definition, negatively charged only.
What he managed to achieve with experiments of his model in the lab, *blows away* anything the mainstream has ever accomplished in a lab,
Absurd exaggeration. I could list hundreds of experiments that were as or more important in the history of physics than this (and as clever or cleverer), but why botheer when your claim is so patently ridiculous.
starting with that full sphere corona you can see in the video and the aurora around the poles of the planet.
You do realise the discharge around the model "sun" in the planeterella is nothing like the solar corona. It has neither the characteristics of the solar corona (pressure too high, temperature way, way too low), nor is it generated in the same way (however the solar corona is heated, it can't be a continuous flow of electrons from a highly charged sun).
The mainstream can't even figure out the heat source of the corona yet, 100 years after he built them a working model of how it works, and explained it's heat source to them.
Except, it doesn't work. There is no continuous source of electrons, being electrostatically repelled from a highly negatively charged Sun, because the Sun is not negatively charged.
There is most certainly an electrical potential difference between the sun and various planets which is why we observe magnetic ropes connecting the planets to the sun.
Since the solar wind is neutral and kinetic, there is no reason to think that the existence of magnetic ropes is evidence for substantial potential difference between the Sun and the Earth. Any real evidence that there is a substantial potential difference? Any consistent electrometer readings from satellites in inter-planetary space, for example?
The solar wind is *not* electrically neutral. While the slower moving particles may be pretty evenly distributed, you guys always ignore the higher speed electrons which you euphemistically refer to as 'strahl'.
Wrong. There is not the slightest shred of evidence that the solar wind is not neutral. Other than simply asserting it, have you any empirical data for electron or ion superabundance overall in the solar wind? Including all elements of both the slow and fast wind?
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

BeAChooser
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by BeAChooser » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:42 pm

Higgsy wrote:in the real case, the solar wind is kinetic and neutral
Do tell us, Higgsy, whether the mainstream’s solar models have been fixed since 2010 when they were found so deficient? You know what I’m talking about, don’t you? Remember what happened that year? The Voyager spacecraft supposedly encounted the Heliopause and suddenly found the solar wind stopping instead of veering sideways as they’d expected would happen (after all, they, like you, thought it neutral and kinetic … and all that motion had to go somewhere when the neutral "wind" suddenly hit the wall of relatively motionless material at the edge of the solar system.) In fact, Voyager’s scientists said in a paper published in Nature that this perplexing collapse of the solar wind left them without a working model for the outer solar system. Stamatios Krimigis, NASA’s principal investigator in charge of the Voyager spacecraft's Low-Energy Charged Particle instrument was even quoted saying that ”all theoretical models have been found wanting."” So my question to you, Higgsy, is do they have a revised model yet that does make sense of this data … and if so, would you be so kind as to explain it to us … you being so knowledgeable and all that. :D

Higgsy
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by Higgsy » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:48 pm

BeAChooser wrote:
Higgsy wrote:in the real case, the solar wind is kinetic and neutral
Do tell us, Higgsy, whether the mainstream’s solar models have been fixed since 2010 when they were found so deficient? You know what I’m talking about, don’t you? Remember what happened that year? The Voyager spacecraft supposedly encounted the Heliopause and suddenly found the solar wind stopping instead of veering sideways as they’d expected would happen (after all, they, like you, thought it neutral and kinetic … and all that motion had to go somewhere when the neutral "wind" suddenly hit the wall of relatively motionless material at the edge of the solar system.) In fact, Voyager’s scientists said in a paper published in Nature that this perplexing collapse of the solar wind left them without a working model for the outer solar system. Stamatios Krimigis, NASA’s principal investigator in charge of the Voyager spacecraft's Low-Energy Charged Particle instrument was even quoted saying that ”all theoretical models have been found wanting."” So my question to you, Higgsy, is do they have a revised model yet that does make sense of this data … and if so, would you be so kind as to explain it to us … you being so knowledgeable and all that. :D
None of this influences the conclusion that the solar wind is overall neutral - unless you have specific evidence that it isn't?

I don't see how unexpected results at the heliopause are relevant in the slightest here.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

BeAChooser
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by BeAChooser » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:24 am

Higgsy wrote:None of this influences the conclusion that the solar wind is overall neutral - unless you have specific evidence that it isn’t?
So I take it, no, you don’t have a revised model to show us. And to respond to your challenge, perhaps the behavior observed at the heliopause is evidence of that? You have to admit, mainstream science don’t understand very well what’s going on out there. Remember their shock at what IBEX found? Instead of a bow shock like they expected, they found a gigantic magnetic bubble. The mainsteam media quoted mainstream scientists (like David McComas, the principle IBEX investigator) saying it's a “ribbon” that is 10 times more intense than anticipated "gusts" in the solar "wind" "blowing" against the boundary being observed. McComas said “charged particles have apparently become bunched along the ribbon near the boundary, but how they got there is still a big mystery.” He said “This is a shocking new result. We had no idea this ribbon existed–or what has created it. Our previous ideas about the outer heliosphere are going to have to be revised.” Mainstream scientists were also surprised by the ribbon's fine filamentary structure and that structure was as much a mystery as the ribbon itself. Noting that the ribbon runs perpendicular to the direction of the galactic magnetic field. McComas said "That cannot be a coincidence." But he didn't understand what it means. Instead, he remarked "We're missing some fundamental aspect of the interaction between the heliosphere and the rest of the galaxy." So tell us, Higgsy, have you *degreed physicists* got that figured out yet?

Also, are you familiar with FTEs (flux transfer events)? This is another discovery that overturned the mainstream’s understanding of the way things where thought to work … and might have a bearing on this thread's issue. After all, how do they transfer such huge amounts of energy as claimed by NASA, if they are merely the result of a neutral solar wind? In fact, NASA has stated that THEMIS data shows magnetic field aligned BEAMS of heated electrons moving through them. And you know what moving electrons are, don’t you Mr *physicist*?
Higgsy wrote:I don't see how unexpected results at the heliopause are relevant in the slightest here.
Of course you wouldn’t? :roll: But rather that try to make you see (i.e, beat my head against a *Higgsypause*, so to speak), let me ask the physicist in you about another observation/conundrum, and see what you have to say. :)

You may have heard of the AU Microscopi observations. Astronomers discovered “clumps” of matter moving outward from the star at high velocity in the equatorial plane. Here are some images:

http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/enlarge2 ... scopii.jpg

http://wwwcdn.skyandtelescope.com/wp-co ... ic_600.jpg

And the velocities seem to increase the farther the clump is from the star. This is contrary to the idea that the “clumps” are the result of flare activity. Furthermore, the clumps are moving very fast (up to 10 km per second). This seems to preclude the notion that the motions are due to forming planets. And three of the clumps even appear to have reached escape velocity for the system. It’s all become a big puzzle to astrophysicists … who think only in terms of gas, gravity and wind.

But it may not be a puzzle if you think in terms of electromagnetism and plasmas. You see, as a cloud of rotating plasma (gas and dust, the mainstream would say) begins to coalesce into a star and planets (and that is the mainstream model, right?), there is a problem that the mainstream’s gravity-only astrophysicists seem to simply ignore (correct me if I’m wrong).  A slowly rotating cloud may tend to collapse under gravity but there is a point where the outward rotational force will counteract further collapse. Stars can’t form without doing something with this excess rotational energy (angular momentum).  It must be dissipated to enable the cloud to collapse further … but the mainstream model, as far as I can tell, has no believable way to do this. So it just ignores it.

Then there is a second problem … that the star, as the most collapsed object, should be spinning the fastest (like a pirouetting dancer pulling in her arms). But if you observe our own solar system, the Sun spins slowly. Almost the entire angular momentum in the solar system (99%) is to be found in the orbiting planets. This appears to be typical of star systems. And again, the mainstream's approach to this difficulty is to … well … ignore it. To this day mainstream astrophysicists still don’t seem to have a good model for how star systems actually form. They just gloss over any problems they can’t explain.

But plasma universe people do have a model that seems to solve these two obstacles. It’s a model based on ordinary physics (isn't that nice). It's a VERY detailed one that was proposed by Nobel Prize winner, Hannes Alfven, and his colleague Gustaf Arrhenius, back in the 70s (https://books.google.com/books?id=pvrtC ... es&f=false ; see pages 138-143, in particular).  Now sadly, their model has been essentially ignored by mainstream *physicists* ever since but isn’t that par for the course when dealing with the current crop of mainstream *physicists*/priests?  

Alfven and Arrhenius theorized that because the inner part of the charged protostellar plasma cloud would spin faster than the outer part, an electric current would be generated, "flowing out along the solar magnetic field lines, through the cloud and back to the sun at its equator" . The interaction of the currents and magnetic fields would cause the inner cloud to slow down, and the outer cloud to speed up, transferring angular momentum outward, and allowing further collapse. They theorized that force free plasma filaments, they called “superprominences”, could transfer the angular momentum from the sun to the plasma from which the planets formed ... and because the filaments pinch the plasmas together in the process, they would also help speed up planet condensation. Here’s a graphic of this process:

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/pp0/superprom.jpg

They noted that there would be what they termed “jet streams” forming from the matter in the system along the equatorial axis (in the disk) where atoms in the plasma state would coexist with neutral grains of matter. They said these jet streams would be of decisive importance as an intermediate stage in the accretion of planets and satellites from grains. Inside the jet streams, the grains would accrete to larger bodies and eventually to planets and satellites.

I suggest to you, Higgsy, that what we are seeing in the AU Microscopii observations are these grain/plasma jet streams and their interaction with the large electromagnetic fields and currents during the formation of a new solar system. Fields and currents not unlike those we are finding in our own solar system everywhere we look. Care to comment? :D

Higgsy
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by Higgsy » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:26 am

BeAChooser wrote:
Higgsy wrote:None of this influences the conclusion that the solar wind is overall neutral - unless you have specific evidence that it isn’t?
So I take it, no, you don’t have a revised model to show us. And to respond to your challenge, perhaps the behavior observed at the heliopause is evidence of that?

Wall of text snipped
So, no, you don't have any evidence that the solar wind is not overall neutral.

And all you can offer is a blatant example of a creationist Gish gallop by producing a wall of text on matters entirely unrelated to the matter at hand.

If it wasn't for those pesky mainstream physicists actually performing observations and doing physics you wouldn't even have the grist for your Gish gallop mill.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

BeAChooser
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by BeAChooser » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:08 am

Higgsy wrote: So, no, you don't have any evidence that the solar wind is not overall neutral.
Gee, Higgsy, if the solar wind is so well understood, why do folks like you keep getting *surprised*? Hmmmm? :D
Higgsy wrote: And all you can offer is a blatant example of a creationist Gish gallop by producing a wall of text on matters entirely unrelated to the matter at hand.
Folks, just so you know, "wall of text" is a phrase that blowhards like Higgsy use when they're about to "gallop" away after being badly embarrassed. Higgsy, my post had nothing to do with creationism. Your introducing that term into this discussion is a not so subtle way of trying to discredit what I posted without actually discrediting it. You are trying to dishonestly link what I posted to something that you think the public already views as discredited. And what I posted is definitely related to the matter at hand ... understanding how the solar system and universe work. Higgsy, if you can't explain how you "degreed physicists" get past the two major obstacles I mentioned in the formation of the solar system, why don't you just admit it? And why should we even dream of putting you chaps on pedestals when you can't even do that ... whereas plasma cosmologists, whom you disparage, seem to have done that long ago? Just saying ...
Higgsy wrote: If it wasn't for those pesky mainstream physicists actually performing observations and doing physics
Actually, Higgsy, while I thank them for the observations (which I helped pay for, by the way), the truth is they abandoned real physics long ago. Now they are just a priesthood peddling Gnome Gods to try and explain things they clearly don't understand while overlooking the obvious that's all around them. While ignoring suggestions and questions from their audience. And while demeaning the rest of us because we are not *DEGREED PHYSICISTS*. But we sure can ask a lot of "pesky" questions, can't we? Questions that make you *DEGREED PHYSICISTS* mighty uncomfortable and which seem to make you look mighty foolish, too. :P

Michael Mozina
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:14 am

Higgsy wrote:That video was what you provided buddy. Look above:
"Or, you could explain your basic problem with Birkeland's solar model, you know, his *working* model? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m58-CfVrsN4 None of them will rise to the challenge of course."

If you want me to look at something else, then provide it. You think working physicists spend their time reading newspaper articles about the discredited ideas of famous physicists from 100 years plus ago?
This response is pretty much a 'classic'. I didn't ask you about the video, I asked you about Birkeland's actual solar model. I just posted the video link so you'd be absolutely sure that Birkeland's solar model worked in the lab.

Your response is pretty typical. You guys never did your homework. Your responses demonstrate that you don't know anything at all about Birkeland's work or his solar model, just whatever you picked up from the internet, the video and the NYT article, apparently. You certainly haven't read his work for yourself.

Specifically what part of his work are you claiming was 'discredited'? Does it even relate to his solar model?
That article says he based his prediction of the sun's energy source being "transmutation of the elements" on platinum and uranium appearing in his discharge tube. So, a) do you think that fission or fusion were occurring in his discharge tube,
Wow. No, and neither did he. I simply pointed out that he successfully predicted that the sun was *internally* powered by fusion/fission/transmutation of elements. You'll note too that it's a different model than the one which Alfven proposed, and that Juergen's proposed.
b) do you think fission/fusion in the Sun is powered by electrical discharges
I'm inclined to believe that fusion sometimes involves electrical discharges and plasma pinches, sure.
and c) do you think platinum and uranium are produced by fusion in the Sun.
No, I think Birkeland was working with the best ideas that he could think of which were relevant and current at the time. He was evidently thinking more along the lines of fission rather than fusion since nobody at the time had a clue about fusion, but they did know that some atoms were unstable and emitted kinetic energy and particles. He simply noted that uranium emitted high energy particles that might produce heat, and "transmute elements" inside the sun.
On the off-chance that you don't know the correct answers, they are no, no and no. So his so-called "prediction" was based on a fundamental misconception of what was happening in his experiment.
That's just pure nonsense. He simply made his best guess about the power source of the sun. The term he used was more typically associated with fission processes at the time which explains his citation to uranium and his experiments with uranium. He did however successfully predict that the sun generated it's own power by turning one type of element into another. I'm sure if he'd ever lived to see fusion, he'd have promoted fusion too. There was no misconception other than your own.
That was yet *another* successful prediction of his model, along with his successful prediction of both types of charged particles in solar wind, coronal loops, polar jets, cathode rays/electron beams, etc.
fair enough, apart from cathode rays/electron beams which are, by definition, negatively charged only.
Sure but those electron beams hit things in the solar atmosphere and push (and pull) protons in their wake. He didn't predict that just electrons came from the sun, he predicted that both types of charged particles came from the sun due to the kinetic energy effects of things like sputtering and particle collisions. He even writes about the 'soot' from the cathode that builds up on the walls of his experiments over time.
What he managed to achieve with experiments of his model in the lab, *blows away* anything the mainstream has ever accomplished in a lab,
Absurd exaggeration. I could list hundreds of experiments that were as or more important in the history of physics than this (and as clever or cleverer), but why botheer when your claim is so patently ridiculous.
Oh please, by all means cite a few mainstream solar physics experiments that produced a full sphere corona, coronal loops, polar jets, electron beams, both types of charged particles in solar wind, aurora and the various things that Birkeland did with his model.

IMO your claim is patently ridiculous. Show me a similar video of a mainstream solar model that does that stuff!
starting with that full sphere corona you can see in the video and the aurora around the poles of the planet.
You do realise the discharge around the model "sun" in the planeterella is nothing like the solar corona.
"Nothing like"? BS.
It has neither the characteristics of the solar corona (pressure too high, temperature way, way too low),
You do realize it's a 'scaled' model, right?
nor is it generated in the same way (however the solar corona is heated, it can't be a continuous flow of electrons from a highly charged sun).
I'll bite. Why not? How do you know it's not heated the same way?
Except, it doesn't work. There is no continuous source of electrons, being electrostatically repelled from a highly negatively charged Sun, because the Sun is not negatively charged.
Yes, it is negatively charged with respect to the heliosphere. There's a charge separation between the surface of the sun, and the heliosphere and that's what causes the emission of electrons, heats up the corona, causes coronal loops, causes those "electron beams", polar jets, solar wind, etc. That's also why you won't be citing any "working" solar physics experiment videos based on mainstream theory or magnetic reconnection theory which produces those correct predictions and sustains them for hours on end. Your ignorance of that very issue is the exact cause of your inability to explain the heat source of the corona and sustained coronal loops.
Since the solar wind is neutral
When we include that "strahl" component, it's not "neutral" at all. Why is that strahl even there in the first place in your opinion? What causes it and sustains it *constantly*?
and kinetic,
Ya, but the kinetic energy is directly related to the charge separation you keep ignoring.
there is no reason to think that the existence of magnetic ropes is evidence for substantial potential difference between the Sun and the Earth.
This comment also demonstrates the nature of mainstream ignorance. Field aligned currents form in an ordinary plasma ball because there is current flowing from the glass to the anode. The same thing occurs in all such field aligned currents including those large scale magnetic ropes. It's the current that sustains them, and the current that ends up dumping so much energy into the Earth's magnetosphere and aurora.
Any real evidence that there is a substantial potential difference?
Pfft! The fact they exist at all, and remains stable over hours is "evidence" of the current that sustains them! Man, you guys are *clueless* about plasma physics. Care to produce a working experiment that produces magnetic ropes connecting two bodies for long periods of time which don't involve a potential difference between them? How clueless can you folks be about the physics of plasma?
Any consistent electrometer readings from satellites in inter-planetary space, for example?
How many satellites in space are you claiming were designed to measure such a thing in the first place? The closest thing I can think of is NASA tether experiment but it wasn't located in "interplanetary space" per se, it was based more on induction than charge separation, and it was interacting with the Earth's magnetosphere. Even still the voltages and currents it produced were *way beyond* anything that NASA predicted based on mainstream theory.
The solar wind is *not* electrically neutral. While the slower moving particles may be pretty evenly distributed, you guys always ignore the higher speed electrons which you euphemistically refer to as 'strahl'.
Wrong. There is not the slightest shred of evidence that the solar wind is not neutral. Other than simply asserting it, have you any empirical data for electron or ion superabundance overall in the solar wind? Including all elements of both the slow and fast wind?
Your assertion that the solar wind is purely neutral doesn't enjoy a shred of evidence because they haven't even launched a satellite that really could easily measure charge separation over any significant distance to start with, and they don't account for the all the strahl features to start with.

Here's your problem in a nutshell: The mere fact that Birkeland's model *works in the lab* precludes you (logically at least) from dismissing his work. You really don't have direct evidence that the net flow of charged particles from the sun is "neutral". What you *might* have are a few satellites that measure particle flows in some locations, for some periods of time, that really mean very little as it relates to *total particle flow*. The fact we observe "electron beams" and high speed strahl electrons coming from the sun should also logically preclude you from *assuming* the sun has no net charge with respect to space. It suggests exactly the opposite in fact.

You still have *zero* evidence that "magnetic reconnection" can produce million degree plasma threads that last for hours on end without charge separation and current flow. Your whole model of high energy plasma is something that Alfven himself called 'pseudoscience' in fact. Everywhere your models use MR, Alfven used circuits and double layers.

Maol
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by Maol » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:05 am

Where's the math we all been hearing about? Where's the math?

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Michael Mozina
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:33 am

Maol wrote:Where's the math we all been hearing about? Where's the math?

Image
You'll find all of Birkeland's original maths in the first link of that post. You'll find links to the math related to the EU cosmology theory in those links to Alfven's work and Peratt's work, and some by Lerner and Scott too. Where's your mathematical rebuttal?

http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... 84#p120541

BeAChooser
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by BeAChooser » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:49 am

Michael Mozina wrote:Oh please, by all means cite a few mainstream solar physics experiments that produced a full sphere corona, coronal loops, polar jets, electron beams, both types of charged particles in solar wind, aurora and the various things that Birkeland did with his model.
And there's the kicker, Michael. He can't. As both of us are demonstrating, he’s unable to explain question after question about how the mainstream explains the sun’s behavior, filaments, helical winding, the momentum distribution in the solar system, and on and on and on. But he sure was quick to throw out an appeal to authority … his authority, him being a *DEGREED* physicist and all that. :roll:
Michael Mozina wrote:You do realize it's a 'scaled' model, right?
Actually, this brings to mind another interesting point that Higgsy has overlooked. One characteristic of electromagnetism and it’s effects on plasmas is that it scales over a VERY wide (indeed VAST) dimensional range, as pointed out by Eric Lerner … a plasma (oh, oh) physicist … decades and decades ago. It was pointed out that the universe should be filamentary at all size scales (in the lab, in the atmospheres of planets, in the Sun's corona, in groups of stars, in galaxies and in strings of galaxy clusters). And it has indeed turned out to be that way. In fact, the many recent studies of filaments by mainstream astrophysicists have clearly shown that filamentation is a ”hierarchical process, starting on very large scales and propagating onwards, to smaller and smaller scales.” Mainstream physicists, across the discipline, are now opening admitting this in the literature on every sort of interstellar observation.

For example, here’s was a recent Nature article (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v5 ... 14556.html ) regarding solar observations which stated “Our observations support the view that solar filament eruptions are formed by a fundamental explosive magnetic process that occurs on a vast range of scales, from the biggest mass ejections and flare eruptions down to X-ray jets, and perhaps even down to smaller jets that may power coronal heating.” In that article they admit that what they observed didn’t match the generally accepted theory … the so-called Emerging-Flux Model … which says new flux coming up to the photosphere and its interaction with the photosphere’s magnetic topology creates the jets.   Instead, they found no evidence of this new flux and found that explosions in small PLASMA filaments near the surface drive the jets.    

But instead of looking to what REAL science has to say about the cause of explosions in plasmas, they continue to cling to the magic gnome of magnetic reconnection that they’ve created out of whole cloth over the years.   Higgsy, I have to say that it’s sad watching you *physicists* flail about so when the truth is right in front of you and has been for more than 30 years.   What they (you) don’t grasp is that these observations are of “double layers” in action.  That filaments are generated by the flow of electric field aligned currents.   That exploding double layers occur due to instabilities in the charge separation in plasma filaments. And that a Nobel Prize winning Physicist named Hannes Alfven explained a lot of this more than 60 years ago.

But at least the authors of that bit of mainstream garbage are right about one thing that ironically they seem so surprised to discover.   The physics IS scaleable from the small to the vast.   That’s the very nature of electromagnetic phenomena.   Plasma cosmologists have pointed to that scaleability for as long as they’ve been around trying to counter the nonsense coming from the mainstream community.   It's a fact that we can create and observe exploding double layers in the lab.  It’s too bad that none of these so-called astrophysicists apparently did that in school or understand that such phenomena SCALE UP and might explain what they see on the sun. Or other suns. 

And to bring this back to what Higgsy worships with religious fervor, the same cannot be said for the mainstream’s #1 magical gnome, dark matter. Because mainstream physicists have come up empty in their 70 odd year search for the stuff, some have grown desperate enough to suggest it behaves differently at different scales. http://www.sciencealert.com/this-new-ex ... st-one-yet “But a new hypothesis might have gotten us closer to figuring out its identity, because physicists now suspect that dark matter has been changing forms this whole time - from ghostly particles in the Universe's biggest structures, to a strange, superfluid state at smaller scales.” And this is not only true of dark matter. The same is being suggested for other gnomes, like inflation explaining the isotopic CBR … http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1086/382267/meta “The most intriguing possibility remains therefore that the recent findings require some fundamentally new physics on large scales in the universe.”
Michael Mozina wrote:Man, you guys are *clueless* about plasma physics. Care to produce a working experiment that produces magnetic ropes connecting two bodies for long periods of time which don't involve a potential difference between them? How clueless can you folks be about the physics of plasma?
Now, now, Michael, Higgsy didn’t want to talk about FTEs. That was just “Gish Galloping” in his mind. And you’re being too kind … clueless doesn’t even begin to describe it, Michael. Their describing the phenomena as “magnetic rope” (or “portals") in the first place proves how little they understand things. They never address what it is that creates the “rope” or "portal". It just magically comes into being every 8 minutes I guess. … another gnome. And they can’t explain why the magnetic fields of these objects are helical in nature. But as one *physicist* was quoted recently … “We’re doing some heavy thinking about this”. :roll: And the farthest they get towards understanding is admitting that “solar wind particles flow in along these ropes, providing energy for geomagnetic storms and auroras.” Like I said, it’s sad to see the state of current astrophysics. It’s sad that debate of this topic from across the aisle has devolved to appeals to authority and blind worship of *physicists*.

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Zyxzevn
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Re: The arrogant & ignorant mainstream ego is given a challe

Unread post by Zyxzevn » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:10 pm

Maol wrote:Where's the math we all been hearing about? Where's the math?
I don't know to whom you are directing that question.

The math of the EU is based upon normal electromagnetism with plasma
actively reacting to it and causing it too.
I think the sun is a very good playground for the electric interactions of plasma.
These interactions are additional to the nuclear reactions that take place
either in or on the surface on the sun.

But while many think that the mainstream has solved everything on the sun already,
it is actually not the case. To compensate for the bad model that they use of the sun,
the mainstream has invented all kinds of weirdness:
Light that takes years to travel towards the surface.
Magnetism that appears from nowhere.
Magnetic field lines that bump into each other (or reconnect).
The denial of a clearly visible surface.
The low pressure of the corona.
None of this is actually valid, whatever maths you are using.

The reasons this model of the sun is so bad, is because of historical reasons.
Like the idea that the sun is a gas. And the false idea that a plasma can
not contain an electric field.

In reality you can see that a simple demonstration of a plasma globe shows that an
electric field in a plasma creates beautiful plasma currents.

The addition of electrical fields to the sun actually makes the sun a lot easier to understand.
From this model, we can calculate the values of the fields.
like: F= Q*E.
And whatever these values are, they are much closer to reality than any of the mainstream models.
Simply because the mainstream model is based on unicorn physics (it does not exist in reality).
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

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