EU Debate

[Lloyd]

Robertus seems agreeable to participating in an EU debate, so let's debate here. He said we could also debate geological issues in his Catastrophic Geology thread on the Planetary Science board. So maybe I'll debate him there too. I think he accepts most of the EU theory and he's an electrical engineer, if I recall right. I don't accept some of the tenets of the theory. I've wanted to have a debate for a few years, but couldn't find anyone interested till now. Everyone is welcome to join the debate.

Q1: My first question for Robert and anyone who wants to debate is:
- Do you disagree with any of the statements I listed as essential elements of EU theory at http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... 46#p119698 ?
- Or do you consider any of them improbable?

[querious]

Q1: My first question for ... anyone who wants to debate is:
- Do you disagree with any of the statements I listed as essential elements of EU theory at http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... 46#p119698 ?
- Or do you consider any of them improbable?

What is your evidence for this claim?...

Star Formation: electric filaments becoming magnetically pinched and forming stars and planets, initially as hot plasma

[neilwilkes]

I would modify that one to say that STars are formed from Z-pinches in the interstellar Birkeland currents.
Then as Stars get electrically stressed, they reduce this by fissioning (and spitting out a companion) to increase the available surface and thus reduce stresses - sometimes temporarily.
Check out the star MIRA (means "amazing") which is continually jumping across the HR plot in a way that a star supposedly powered by Fusion reactions could never do - goes from magnitude 10 to 4, then back to 8 and up to 2 and so on. This alone falsifies the fusion theory but it is far from the only one that does this.

[querious]

I would modify that one to say that STars are formed from Z-pinches in the interstellar Birkeland currents.
Then as Stars get electrically stressed, they reduce this by fissioning (and spitting out a companion) to increase the available surface and thus reduce stresses - sometimes temporarily.
Check out the star MIRA (means "amazing") which is continually jumping across the HR plot in a way that a star supposedly powered by Fusion reactions could never do - goes from magnitude 10 to 4, then back to 8 and up to 2 and so on. This alone falsifies the fusion theory but it is far from the only one that does this.

I don't agree that Mira variables "falsify" the fusion theory. But before we get into an argument about that, I'd like to know if anyone here can present evidence for a star being powered by Birkeland currents.

[Lloyd]

Querious asked: "What is your evidence for this claim?... Star Formation: electric filaments becoming magnetically pinched and forming stars and planets, initially as hot plasma"

That's not my claim. It's the EU theory claim, i.e. by Wal Thornhill, as per his articles at http://holoscience.com

Neil, I believe EU theorists say filaments are Birkeland currents, so I think my wording means about the same as yours. Do you see any major problems with my wording?

[querious]

Querious asked: "What is your evidence for this claim?... Star Formation: electric filaments becoming magnetically pinched and forming stars and planets, initially as hot plasma"

That's not my claim. It's the EU theory claim, i.e. by Wal Thornhill, as per his articles at http://holoscience.com

Neil, I believe EU theorists say filaments are Birkeland currents, so I think my wording means about the same as yours. Do you see any major problems with my wording?

So, besides Thornhill's articles, which don't actually point out any evidence of massive currents powering stars, is there any evidence? What convinces you?

[jacmac]

Several months back on these forum pages there was a debate about whether the sun was an ANODE or a CATHODE. The assumption, or statement, was that there is a solar CIRCUIT. Thus the anode/cathode debate.
I proposed NEITHER.
I think that massively powerful plasma pinches can and do create bodies of matter of all sizes. (create as in assemble from the matter making up the plasma)
However, they do not necessarily emerge from that process with the largest bodies acting as fully functioning suns. I suggest the functioning suns happen later under a different process than the original creating PINCH.

What that process is, is still to be determined.
This is my idea:

There is no evidence of a large Birkeland current somehow feeding the sun with enough energy to power the "anode tufts" we call the photosphere. All photos of massive current in space in the hourglass shape do have the requisite hourglass parts of the glowing, pinching plasma often with the brilliant light emanating from the center. Our solar system does not have that. ( The IBEX ribbon notwithstanding IMO).

I do believe the inner core of the sun is probably charged, but not as an anode or cathode receiving power separate from what we see happening in the photosphere, chromosphere, and corona. The inner sun is charged by being surrounded by a very dense amount of plasma WHICH HAS CONCENTRATED ITSELF IN A MANNER SUFFICIENT TO LIGHT UP AS A SUN. I see the inner sun acting as a sort of dead end of a "circuit", as a sort of GROUND, about which the plasma collects (plasmoid). The other end of the "circuit" is the outer Heliosphere.

The plasma outside the heliosphere is said to be 40 x more dense than the plasma just inside the heliosphere.
I suggest this density difference is what powers the sun.
From Google:

The heliopause is the boundary between the Sun's solar wind and the interstellar medium. The solar wind blows a "bubble" known as the heliosphere into the interstellar medium. The outer border of this "bubble" is where the solar wind's strength is no longer great enough to push back the interstellar medium.Jul 25, 2008

They have that kind of backwards. The sun's electric field IS STRONG ENOUGH to isolate the interstellar medium(ISM) with a double layer, so that the plasma within can condense at the sun, to be the sun. For an external plasma supplied sun to work the interstellar medium (plasma) must be held somewhat at bay so concentration can happen. The double layer at the heliopause isolates the ISM from what goes on within, as the double layer above the photosphere (the chromosphere) isolates the quiet photosphere from the wild and crazy corona above.

Ralph Juergens is right, the photosphere is the Bottom of what we call the sun.
Dr. Scott is right, the Drift Current becomes more dense as it approaches the sun......
until it becomes the sun.

Just as plasma self organizes to make double layers,
plasma also self organizes around large bodies to make suns.
It is a massive electric spontaneous combustion event.

Jack

[querious]

Just as plasma self organizes to make double layers,
plasma also self organizes around large bodies to make suns.
It is a massive electric spontaneous combustion event.

Jack,
The problem I see with your theory is that there is an equal number of positive and negative charges leaving the sun as the solar wind, unless you have evidence to the contrary.

[jacmac]

Thanks querious,
In my scenario the solar wind acts as a return loop for plasma to head out to the outer areas of the heliosphere.

The main problem with the EU EXTERIOR POWERED SUN, whether it be an Anode sun, Cathode sun, or my suggested Selfnode sun(don't know what to call it yet), is where is the power coming in ?. Yes the solar wind seems to be going mostly out but, would it be enough to power the sun any way ?

The interior solar body is completely surrounded by the photosphere, the chromosphere, and the corona.
So, how does the current get into the interior solar body for it to be an anode, or cathode ?
I am saying that it doesn't. My candidate is Dr Scott's drift current.
To the extent the sun is powered externally, that is happening first in the corona. IMO
Jack

[querious]

Thanks querious,
In my scenario the solar wind acts as a return loop for plasma to head out to the outer areas of the heliosphere.

The main problem with the EU EXTERIOR POWERED SUN, whether it be an Anode sun, Cathode sun, or my suggested Selfnode sun(don't know what to call it yet), is where is the power coming in ?. Yes the solar wind seems to be going mostly out but, would it be enough to power the sun any way ?

The interior solar body is completely surrounded by the photosphere, the chromosphere, and the corona.
So, how does the current get into the interior solar body for it to be an anode, or cathode ?
I am saying that it doesn't. My candidate is Dr Scott's drift current.
To the extent the sun is powered externally, that is happening first in the corona. IMO
Jack

Hi Jack,
In Scott's model, what keeps the sun positively charged so the electrons drift towards it, evenly, for billions of years?

[Lloyd]

I guess I should have started this debate on the NIAMI board, since we're not discussing just EU theory.

By the way, JacMac, the 3 cathode sun models I know of, by Charles Chandler, Michael Mozina and Brant Callahan (Upriver), don't have the Sun receiving charge from outside, so they're not reliant on electric currents for their power. Instead, they're more like batteries which use stored power. We had an Electric Sun Discussion a few years ago on the NIAMI board, I think. Some of us later had the Anode vs Cathode Sun discussion after that and maybe a discussion of the Plasmoid Model.

Also, Querious, the age of the solar system is up for grabs among most theorists here. Many think some of the planets, esp. Venus, Earth, Mars and Saturn, came from outside of the solar system a few thousand years ago (possibly from the Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy thousands or millions of years earlier). I consider that a possibility too. As for the Sun, I think Charles Chandler has calculated that it must be about 378 million years old.

[jacmac]

Lloyd:

since we're not discussing just EU theory

I thought we were discussing the unfinished part(s) of EU theory.

querious:

Hi Jack,
In Scott's model, what keeps the sun positively charged so the electrons drift towards it, evenly, for billions of years?

I don"t know.
In Dr. Scott's book THE ELECTRIC SKY page 114 he said:
"What is the exact circuit diagram ?
Precisely what paths do the galactic currents take in the vicinity of the sun" ?

[Lloyd]

JacMac, I want to debate the EU theory as well as discuss unfinished aspects of it.

[Michael Mozina]

JacMac, I want to debate the EU theory as well as discuss unfinished aspects of it.

It might be useful to discuss EU "cosmology" theory as separate from various solar, planetary, and comet theories. They may all fit under the same EU/PC umbrella, but technically Alfven used an entirely different solar model than either Jeurgen's or Birkeland, yet Alfven's overall use of circuit theory to describe events in current carrying plasma in space would still apply to both of the other two solar models.

[jacmac]

I agree with Michael.

Lloyd, you have listed many basic elements of EU ideas.
Perhaps you might say what you think is: THE EU THEORY.