Magnetic Reconnection

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Re: Magnetic Reconnection

Unread postby verisimilitude » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:38 pm

jacmac wrote:I was asking, what is your point about saying that electricity only does work in atmosphere's ?
jack

Understood. That entire section was "Devil's Advocate." I was intentionally outlining the other side of the argument in hopes of stimulating conversation because the current trend of complaining about definitions is taking us no where.

Thank you for clarifying.
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Alfven left the door open - EU has yet to close it

Unread postby verisimilitude » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:00 am

Hennes Alfven, Electric currents in Cosmic Plasmas, Page 16 wrote:"Hence in order to understand the properties of a current-carrying plasma we must take account of the properties of the whole circuit in which the current flows.
As this is not done in the magnetic merging theories, we conclude that they give a basically erroneous description of the phenomena even if a change in the current really produces a field-line reconnection."

Hennes Alfven, Electric currents in Cosmic Plasmas, Page 17 wrote:"It is well-known that all electric circuits containing an inductance L are intrinsically explosive in the sense that if the circuit is disrupted anywhere, the magnetic energy is released at the point of disruption ... The result is that the energy W(subscript L) may be released in the double sheath, where it causes an explosion."

"Even if" mainstream science ignores the particle aspect of plasma (electricity) in favor of the field aspect (magnetism), after spending 15 pages saying MR is not possible because the particle aspect of plasma is ignored, he then concludes with a jab at definitions and an admission that magnetic energy released into double layers causes them to explode.

Sounds familiar :lol:

The second half of this paper was completely speculative, and, to his credit, he admitted as such.

Conclusion: not much has changed in the intervening 41 years...
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Re: Alfven left the door open - EU has yet to close it

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:29 am

verisimilitude wrote:
Hennes Alfven, Electric currents in Cosmic Plasmas, Page 16 wrote:"Hence in order to understand the properties of a current-carrying plasma we must take account of the properties of the whole circuit in which the current flows.
As this is not done in the magnetic merging theories, we conclude that they give a basically erroneous description of the phenomena even if a change in the current really produces a field-line reconnection."

Hennes Alfven, Electric currents in Cosmic Plasmas, Page 17 wrote:"It is well-known that all electric circuits containing an inductance L are intrinsically explosive in the sense that if the circuit is disrupted anywhere, the magnetic energy is released at the point of disruption ... The result is that the energy W(subscript L) may be released in the double sheath, where it causes an explosion."

"Even if" mainstream science ignores the particle aspect of plasma (electricity) in favor of the field aspect (magnetism), after spending 15 pages saying MR is not possible because the particle aspect of plasma is ignored, he then concludes with a jab at definitions and an admission that magnetic energy released into double layers causes them to explode.

Sounds familiar :lol:

The second half of this paper was completely speculative, and, to his credit, he admitted as such.

Conclusion: not much has changed in the intervening 41 years...


I think that first paragraph you cited is the key. If one doesn't include the full circuit and all the circuit energy, it's virtually impossible to explain how a single coronal loop achieves million degree temperatures and sustains them for days and weeks on end.

I don't think anyone denies that stored magnetic field energy can be explosively released when the circuit is disrupted, but it's really the circuit energy that's sustaining the process, and 'stores' the magnetic field energy in the first place.

I think the real question is what *exactly* is the physical difference between induction in a plasma conductor, and 'magnetic reconnection'?
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Re: Magnetic Reconnection

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:48 pm

Michael wrote:I don't think anyone denies that stored magnetic field energy can be explosively released when the circuit is disrupted,

What?
You probably made a mistake.

A MRI scanner does this with multiple Teslas and nothing ever got explosive.
This is far more than what is present on the sun.

Magnetic fields have no energy. Just like electrical fields have no energy.
Electrical: Your electrical grid can work with very strong electric fields,
and this does not cost much energy.

The only energy that is present is that of electrical discharges, which
does get bigger with a stronger electrical field,
and weaker with a strong magnetic field.

It is weaker due to the magnetic induction effect, which slows down
the change of the electrical current. (Used for that purpose in electrical circuits).
In that sense you can use the magnetic induction of a spool to get an explosive effect.
But for that you need a lot of windings in your spool.
See Tesla-tower.

The change of a magnetic field can cause an induction current.
But that is not so strong in plasma, because all plasma around the magnetic field will
react. Not just concentrated in one area. So no explosive effect of any kind.
That is why MRI are relatively safe and don't fry your brains.
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Re: Magnetic Reconnection

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:58 pm

Zyxzevn wrote:
Michael wrote:I don't think anyone denies that stored magnetic field energy can be explosively released when the circuit is disrupted,

What?
You probably made a mistake.


Ya, I think that my biggest mistake is trying to deviate from the circuit/discharge/double layer approach when discussing high energy plasma events. I tend to get sloppy in my verbiage and cause confusion when I try to frame things from the magnetic field perspective. I'm guessing that's why Alfven simply stopped doing it too.

A MRI scanner does this with multiple Teslas and nothing ever got explosive.
This is far more than what is present on the sun.


I was *pitifully* (and poorly) trying to express/convey the concept of induction due to the changing magnetic field, but you're absolutely right it's an "electrical discharge" driven event and most of the kinetic energy comes from the discharge and the circuits. Forgive my sloppy verbiage and any misunderstandings as a result of my poor choice of words.

Magnetic fields have no energy. Just like electrical fields have no energy.
Electrical: Your electrical grid can work with very strong electric fields,
and this does not cost much energy.


All that is true of course, but as the field changes, as you also noted, it will induce charged particle movement in the plasma. Admittedly it's not the primary cause of the discharge however.

I can't find anything to disagree with you about. I think I'll just stop trying to frame things from the field perspective. It always seems to cause more confusion than it's worth. Sorry about that.
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Re: Magnetic Reconnection

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:05 pm

Michael Mozina wrote:I tend to get sloppy in my verbiage and cause confusion when I try to frame things from the magnetic field perspective.

I sometimes get sloppy too. 8-)

I think the magnetic field perspective is a general problem in astronomy.
Magnetic fields seem a very simple answer to the problems,
until you see that they (1) need to change to have any effect
OR (2) only affect electrical currents.
AND magnetic fields can not exist without electrical currents.

Electrical fields on the other hand can be static.
There is no change needed to produce any current.
Just some kind of conducting connection.
And if there is a short-cut the electrical fields can produce enormous amounts of energy.

And that is exactly what we are seeing in the solar flares.
Most currents are simply connecting different electrical charges around the sun.
Which gives these currents a very stable position, until they are discharged.
Yet, in the case of a short-cut, these currents will cause explosive reactions on the
sun and cause solar flares.

While moving away from the false magnetic model, it appears to me
that the "flux-lines" on the sun are actually electrical currents.
This observation breaks with the mainstream ideas of the sun.

The lines might be influenced by magnetic fields, though.
But as we know electrical currents follow the least-resistant path,
and that is not the same as following magnetic field-lines.
And as I stated above, I seems to me that certain circular flares are
actually caused by a perpendicular magnetic field.

Why is this so difficult for mainstream astronomers?
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Re: Magnetic Reconnection

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:09 pm

But to add Maths to the mix..

can we make a plasma simulator that calculates the movement of plasma on the sun?

I believe that it would not be too hard, because it follows known physics.
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