Albert Einstein and the speed of light

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Higgsy
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Higgsy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:43 pm

Hi Sketch, I very much appreciate your very comprehensive posts and explanations in reply to my questions. The problem I am having is that they are so comprehensive that I can't find specific answers answers to my specific questions - I'm sure they are there, but I can't identify them. It would me tremendously in my quest to understand the EU if you were able to answer my specific questions in a sentence or two, or at most a paragraph.
sketch1946 wrote: The significance of the 3 kHz acoustic signal detected past Jupiter?
The Voyagers detected an acoustic signature at the heliopause way out past Jupiter which included an acoustic signal at approx 3 kHz, which turns out to be a little understood interaction of cosmic rays and the sun's heliosphere... I was looking for possible alternative explanations for the CMB...
OK, so back to my very original question: why do you think a 3kHz signal might help with an alternative explanation for the CMB? I'm sure there's something here that I'm missing. Oh - and when you say an acoustic signal, what do you mean by acoustic?
so I wondered if a similar thing might be causing the CMB radiation, that might be happening above the earth, or on the earth,maybe in the atmosphere, or the magnetosphere.. interactions with microwaves leaving an acoustic signature...
So what kind of acoustic signal could explain the CMB?
there seems to be an influence of the atmosphere (including way up to the magnetosphere) on the earth including its oceans... so I was looking for evidence of a similar effect nearer to the earth....
Ah, ok. You do know that the most recent satellites that measured the CMB were located at at the Sun-Earth L2 Langrangian point in a heliocentric orbit about 1.5 million kilometers from the Earth? So I'm not sure what is the relevance of your excellently described references to the earth's atmosphere.
Is there any evidence of microwave heat absorption and emission in the upper atmosphere?
SNIP
What if the CMB is exactly the radiation from microwaves being absorbed and then re-radiated in the upper atmosphere?
That's not likely is it, given the location of WMAP and Planck?
It seems to be a curiosity that the CMB peeks in through a 'window' through the otherwise shielded earth, I wonder if this window hasn't influenced the interpretation of the sources of the CMB
Well, as I understand it, the original detection by Penzias and Wilson was constrained by the transmission window of the Earth's atmosphere, but all quantitative measurements of the CMB, including its temperature, were conducted above the atmosphere. Is that how you understand it?
The current wisdom has it that this radiation has cooled from 3000K and travelled 13.x billion years, and got red-shifted into the microwave part of the EM spectrum, I wonder why it didn't get stretched right out into the radio end... :-)
Well, as I understand it, the temperature now is given by the temperature at the surface of last scattering and the ratio between the scale of the universe then and the scale of the universe now (the ratio is about 1,100) - is that how you understand it? If so, then that temperature determines that the CMB falls mainly within the microwave band with a peak at about 150GHz.

I am even more puzzled by your reference to atmospheric infrasound and its connection with the CMB?:
Oceanic waves end up in the thermosphere:
"Microbaroms may also be produced by standing waves created between two storms, or when an ocean swell is reflected at the shore. Waves with approximately 10-second periods are abundant in the open oceans, and correspond to the observed 0.2 Hz infrasonic spectral peak of microbaroms...SNIP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbarom
Penzias and Wilson measure the wavelength of the radiation as 7.35 cm:
I'm curious why they reported it as this value, when Dicke who were eagerly looking for evidence for their Big Bang theory jumped on the data, now the value is 2.732 K which calculates to be 1mm...
Well actually the peak is at ~2mm (150GHz) but it is a black body spectrum with a temperature of 2.73K, so although the peak is at ~2mm, it has significant energy at 7.35cm (and, of course, the atmosphere doesn't transmit much for wavelengths shorter than 7cm and P&W were at ground level.
The CMB is only 'visible' through a narrow 'window' otherwise there's too much 'contamination',
yet Penzias and Wilson report the radiation they discovered in 1964 at a wavelength of 7.5cm, instead
of the current accepted value of close to 1 mm??
[/quote][/quote]See above - it's only visible in a narrow window at ground level because of atmospheric absorption, but all quantitative measurements were and are taken above the atmosphere. The peak is at ~2mm, but there is significant energy in the "window" for P&W to detect.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

Justatruthseeker
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Justatruthseeker » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:38 pm

I know they haven't measured a black body curve because a black body source requires an enclosure of perfect absorption. There are no black body sources in nature, they are all manmade enclosures which all use manmade materials.
Fabricated Ad-hoc Inventions Repeatedly Invoked in Effort to Defend Untennable Scientific Theory - Fairie Dust

If one closes one's eyes they can imagine a universe of infinite possibilities, but until one opens one's eyes they will never see the light - me

Higgsy
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Higgsy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:49 pm

Hi Zyxzevn,
I asked some questions to get more information about your views on the CMB higher up the thread, and it would be really good if you were able to answer.
Zyxzevn wrote:
"The CMB spectrum has become the most precisely measured black body spectrum in nature"
The CMB is totally bullshit in its basic sense,
because there are no objects or boundaries in a big-bang from where the radiation can come from.
Could you expand on this? In particular, why is a boundary needed?
Even if such objects or boundaries would exist, which is incompatible with the big bang,
it would not produce a "black body" spectrum.
Wouldn't it? Why not?
So the black body spectrum, if it is really measured correctly,
is an indication that the cause is an equal distribution of energy.
Like the energy caused by photons losing energy in interstellar plasma.
What do you mean by an equal distribution of energy? How do photons lose energy in the ISM and why does that produce a black body spectrum?

Thanks.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

Higgsy
Posts: 217
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Higgsy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:57 pm

Justatruthseeker wrote:I know they haven't measured a black body curve because a black body source requires an enclosure of perfect absorption. There are no black body sources in nature, they are all manmade enclosures which all use manmade materials.
Hi JATS, a question on this view if you will - when you say the mainstream hasn't measured a black body spectrum, and leaving aside all interpretations of what the CMB source actually is, are you claiming that they are lying about the spectrum, or that they think they have measured a BB spectrum but they haven't, or - well I can't think of any other options. Also, is your view that professional physicists don't understand under what conditions a black body spectrum is produced? Is it possible that man-made BB sources are an attempt to mimic naturally occurring ones?
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

Justatruthseeker
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:51 pm

Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Justatruthseeker » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:10 pm

Higgsy wrote:
Justatruthseeker wrote:I know they haven't measured a black body curve because a black body source requires an enclosure of perfect absorption. There are no black body sources in nature, they are all manmade enclosures which all use manmade materials.
Hi JATS, a question on this view if you will - when you say the mainstream hasn't measured a black body spectrum, and leaving aside all interpretations of what the CMB source actually is, are you claiming that they are lying about the spectrum, or that they think they have measured a BB spectrum but they haven't, or - well I can't think of any other options. Also, is your view that professional physicists don't understand under what conditions a black body spectrum is produced? Is it possible that man-made BB sources are an attempt to mimic naturally occurring ones?
This explains my view on black body radiation pretty well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c-Luq0fOJK8

Edit: been looking for this one, found it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i8ijbu3bSqI
Fabricated Ad-hoc Inventions Repeatedly Invoked in Effort to Defend Untennable Scientific Theory - Fairie Dust

If one closes one's eyes they can imagine a universe of infinite possibilities, but until one opens one's eyes they will never see the light - me

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Zyxzevn
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Zyxzevn » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:29 pm

Zyxzevn wrote: ...
because there are no objects or boundaries in a big-bang from where the radiation can come from.
Could you expand on this? In particular, why is a boundary needed?
Radiation needs to come from something.
That is the basic concept of radiation.
Even if such objects or boundaries would exist, which is incompatible with the big bang,
it would not produce a "black body" spectrum.
Wouldn't it? Why not?
The inflation model of the big bang has no borders, except for a border in time.
(When there was no space nor time :roll: ).
And this border is outside our view, because it is retreating faster than the speed of light.
And such a border can not reflect or transmit anything. And is certainly not a "black body".

In my view, the CMB is rather evidence against the big bang than in favour of it.
What do you mean by an equal distribution of energy? How do photons lose energy in the ISM and why does that produce a black body spectrum?
The dark cold plasma is a black body in essence.
To keep it simple: It is matter that is black on most of the measured frequencies.
The polarisation of the radiation will be affected by the EM-fields in the plasma.

The only question is whether we measure the plasma (and matter) around the earth, the plasma around the sun,
the plasma inside the milky way, or the plasma between the galaxies.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

Higgsy
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Higgsy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:09 pm

Justatruthseeker wrote:
Higgsy wrote:
Justatruthseeker wrote:I know they haven't measured a black body curve because a black body source requires an enclosure of perfect absorption. There are no black body sources in nature, they are all manmade enclosures which all use manmade materials.
Hi JATS, a question on this view if you will - when you say the mainstream hasn't measured a black body spectrum, and leaving aside all interpretations of what the CMB source actually is, are you claiming that they are lying about the spectrum, or that they think they have measured a BB spectrum but they haven't, or - well I can't think of any other options. Also, is your view that professional physicists don't understand under what conditions a black body spectrum is produced? Is it possible that man-made BB sources are an attempt to mimic naturally occurring ones?
This explains my view on black body radiation pretty well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c-Luq0fOJK8

Edit: been looking for this one, found it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i8ijbu3bSqI
Oh, I'm really sorry, I don't do youtube. Very old-fashioned, I know. Is there any chance you could answer my questions with words? I'd be really grateful.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

sketch1946
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by sketch1946 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:47 am

Hi higgsy,
I appreciate your questions about my posts..
I respect you, and your opinions, you give the impression of being well qualified
and familiar with physics, maths and cosmology at university level or beyond

so fundamentally you have me at a disadvantage with some things where I have no expertise, I have to read, search, and evaluate what I can through my own credibility filter, you seem to have a thorough and competent understanding of the latest integrated theories of physics and cosmology.

But so does Pierre-Marie Robitaille, he has qualifications, a professor at a university, has published many peer-reviewed papers, he has a demonstrated practical knowledge of real world diagnostic imaging and data analysis, he does not believe the CMB is evidence of the Big Bang.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8ijbu3bSqI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hstum3U2zw

"Professor Robitaille joined the Department of Radiology in 1989. At the time, his research centered upon spectroscopic methods, with a focus on the experimental and theoretical aspects of Nuclear Magnetic Resonance and Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI). He devoted considerable attention to NIH funded spectroscopic analysis of in-vivo cardiac metabolism in the normal and failing heart, using both 13C- and 31P- NMR methods. He also focused on the development of new instrumentation for MRI. This included the design and assembly of the first torque compensated asymmetric gradient coil."

"From 1995-2000, Professor Robitaille was responsible for conceiving and assembling, at OSU, the world's first ultra high field clinical MRI system. This 8 Tesla/80cm MRI system was utilized to acquire many of the highest resolution images in existence. At the same time, early results with this instrument prompted a reconsideration of RF power requirements in MRI and of signal to noise. In turning his attention to these problems, Professor Robitaille initially sought to consider NMR is a "thermal" process. In the early days of this modality, the T1 relaxation time was also known as the "thermal" relaxation time. This would lead to a detailed study of Kirchhoff's Law of Thermal Emission, a topic on which he has subsequently published extensively."

"Kirchhoff's Law stands at the very heart of spectroscopic analysis, not only in medicine, but also in fields as seemingly remote as astronomy. For Professor Robitaille, revisiting Kirchhoff's Law of Thermal Emission has resulted in questioning many established ideas in astronomy, including the origin of the microwave background and, most importantly, the nature of the Sun itself. That is because the standard model of the Sun, relies on the validity of Kirchhoff's Law, in order to justify a gaseous state. Conversely, if Kirchhoff's Law is not valid, then the Sun cannot be a gaseous in nature. Along these lines, Professor Robitaille has recently advanced forty lines of evidence that the Sun is comprised of condensed matter."
http://radiology.osu.edu/10717.cfm
Robitaille has been often attacked in a most unscientific way, pure ad hominem slander,
thankfully human reason can prevail in spite of statisticians, opinion polls, and chook yard politics....

If there are errors of understanding in the nature of the sun, in the physics of the electromagnetic wave, including light and other radiation, in how electric and magnetic fields may work in space, and even errors in the physics constants, then we have a lot of homework to do... :-)

I'm an artist with an interest in life, science and truth generally,
so in a way I might be representative of the 'general public',
ie many people who admire modern scientific achievements and
technologies, like computing, space and other modern wonders,
..... but....have a 'feeling' that there is a systematic failure somewhere...

This guy says it better than I could:

"During my professional career, all I have seen is failure. A failure of particle physicists to uncover a more powerful mathematical framework to improve upon the theories we already have. Yes, failure is part of science – it’s frustrating, but not worrisome. What worries me much more is our failure to learn from failure. Rather than trying something new, we’ve been trying the same thing over and over again, expecting different results."

"The idea of naturalness that has been preached for so long is plainly not compatible with the LHC data, regardless of what else will be found in the data yet to come. And now that naturalness is in the way of moving predictions for so-far undiscovered particles – yet again! – to higher energies, particle physicists, opportunistic as always, are suddenly more than willing to discard of naturalness to justify the next larger collider.

"Now that the diphoton bump is gone, we’ve entered what has become known as the “nightmare scenario” for the LHC: The Higgs and nothing else. Many particle physicists thought of this as the worst possible outcome. It has left them without guidance, lost in a thicket of rapidly multiplying models. Without some new physics, they have nothing to work with that they haven’t already had for 50 years, no new input that can tell them in which direction to look for the ultimate goal of unification and/or quantum gravity."

"That the LHC hasn’t seen evidence for new physics is to me a clear signal that we’ve been doing something wrong..."

it's the high profile quasi religious/philosophical meanderings of multiverses and quantum entanglement... the incompatibility of GR and quantum mechanics, the action-at-a-distance problem, these suggest to me we all should step back a bit and maybe reconsider some real practical physics basics... like the nature of empty space which is supposed to be physically measurable, and the implications, the possible analogue wave nature of light itself, the physical nature of charge as opposed to the way charge interacts with matter, possible analogue to digital nature of light and matter etc....obviously it's hard or even impossible for some people, who have invested up to a lifetime learning or studying or teaching in a particular consensus paradigm, for them, or even you, change may be unthinkable...
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160809 ... r-physics/

That's roughly what I'm doing here in this Thunderbolts project... just looking and thinking about what other people are thinking about... and having some fun... :-)

I think it's time to have a critical re-evaluation of what Faraday, Maxwell, de Broglie, Einstein etc believed, and see if we have taken a wrong turn somewhere... some more physical experiments.. this current notion of expanding space should have some measurable effect on the speed of light, gravity etc with some well designed laser experiments for example....

That said, I hope we can have a productive discussion. Back to my understanding of the CMB:

The primary reasons for my concerns about the validity of the CMB as evidence of the
hypothetical Big Bang are these:

1. At first the CMB radiation was measured on earth, pointing at the sky, and announced as isotropic.
2. Then for theoretical reasons, it was ***necessary to find anisotropy.

To find out more, I read "The First Three Minutes", George Smoot's "Wrinkles in Time", etc

3. I became concerned, it seemed to me impossible to 'take a picture' of the background sky, behind the dust and stars and planets and all the stuff that's obscuring the background horizon.

I'm an artist, and I have extensive experience with computers since 1981, and graphics software, images are an area I'm very familiar with, I know layer filters, layer modes, 3D skymaps, texturing of spheres etc.
So I'm skeptical of the fundamental claim that the images produced by COBE, WMAP and Planck are real. I don't believe that this 'feat' of viewing an image through the 'foreground contamination' is possible.

I'm suspicious of the enormous and valiant efforts of these obviously very gifted mathematicians to find the Emperor's clothes... :-)

"The power spectrum is the cornerstone of the whole effort: it’s this statistical map that cosmologists base their CMB analysis on."

"The cosmologists then make some assumptions about what kind of universe they’re dealing with — in astrospeak, they assume the standard lambda-CDM model, which includes (1) a particular solution to the general relativistic equations of gravity, (2) a universe that looks basically the same on large scales and is expanding, (3) an early period of stupendous expansion called inflation, and (4) quantum fluctuations that seeded today’s large-scale matter distribution."

"From there, they start tweaking the assumptions, like a dressmaker tucking and letting out a dress pattern until it fits right. They could even chuck any assumption that proves to be bad. Eventually, they find the pattern that most successfully fits the CMB."

With respect, this proves the CMB as evidence for the Big Bang is based on wishful thinking.
Q.E.D.

"...Planck predicts about 2.5 times more clusters than are actually observed. This could be due to error in the estimates from either side, or due to ***new physics."
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronom ... 210201523/

The Planck data is apparently in a special format which is supposed to make the subsequent mathematical probabilities 'easier', but smells even more than Penzias and Wilson's pigeons:

Planck uses a different format which mixes a database and from these measurements, an image-like diagram can be extracted, it's not an picture of anything...

HEALPIX : "1. Hierarchical structure of the data base.
"This is recognised as essential for very large data bases,
and was postulated in construction of the Quadrilateralized Spherical Cube :-)
(or quad-sphere, see http://space.gsfc.nasa.gov/astro/cobe/skymapinfo.html),
which was used for the COBE data."

"An argument in favour of this proposition states that the data elements which are nearby in a multi-dimensional configuration space (here, on the surface of a sphere), are also nearby in the tree structure of the data base, hence the near-neighbour searches are conducted optimally in the data storage medium or computer RAM. This property, especially when implemented with a small number of base resolution elements, facilitates various topological methods of analysis, and allows easy construction of wavelet transforms on quadrilateral (and also triangular) grids."

"Figure 1 shows how a hierarchical partition with quadrilateral structure naturally allows
for a binary vector indexing of the data base."

"3. Iso-Latitude distribution of discrete area elements on a sphere. This property is critical for computational speed of all operations involving evaluation of spherical harmonics.

"Since the associated Legendre polynomial components of spherical harmonics are evaluated via slow recursions, and can not be simply handled in an analogous way to the trigonometric Fast Fourier Transform, any deviations in the sampling grid from an iso-latitude distribution result in a prohibitive loss of computational performance with the growing number of sampling points, or increasing map resolution."

"It is precisely this property that the COBE quad-sphere is lacking, and this renders it impractical for applications to high resolution data."

"A number of tessellations have been used for discretisation and analysis of functions on the
sphere (for example, see (Driscoll & Healy (1994)), (Muciaccia, Natoli & Vittorio (1998)) —
rectangular grids, (Baumgardner & Frederickson (1985)), (Tegmark (1996)) — icosahedral
grids, (Saff & Kuijlaars (1997)), (Crittenden & Turok (1998)) — ‘igloo’ grids, and (Szalay
& Brunner (1998)) — a triangular grid), but none satisfies simultaneously all three stated
requirements."
"All three requirements formulated above are satisfied by construction with the Hierarchi-
cal Equal Area, iso-Latitude Pixelisation (HEALPix) of the sphere, which is shown in
Figure 2. A more detailed description of HEALPix, its motivations, and applications can
be found in (Gorski et al (2005))."

Q: Why on earth would you have all this complexity in an image map?
A: To make the subsequent probability functions easier.
http://healpix.jpl.nasa.gov/pdf/intro.pdf

At the beginnings of COBE, megapixel files were considered huge:

"The ultimate data products of these missions — multiple microwave sky maps, each of which
will have to comprise more than ∼10^6 pixels in order to render the angular resolution
of the instruments — will present serious challenges to those involved in the analysis and
scientific exploitation of the results of both surveys."

"As we have learned while working with the COBE mission products, the digitised sky map
is an essential intermediate stage in information processing between the entry point of
data acquisition by the instruments — very large time ordered data streams, and the final
stage of astrophysical analysis — typically producing a ’few’ numerical values of physical
parameters of interest."

"COBE-DMR sky maps (angular resolution of 7◦(FWHM) in three frequency bands,
two channels each, ***6144 pixels per map) were considered large at the time of their release."

"As for future CMB maps, a whole sky CMB survey at the angular resolution of ∼10'
(FWHM), discretised with a few pixels per resolution element (so that the discretisation
effects on the signal are sub-dominant with respect to the effects of instrument’s angular
response), will require map sizes of at least N pix ∼ a few × 1.5 10^6 pixels."

This was written, when indeed an image file of a few megapixels probably did seem large...
nothing by today's standards, but since we're talking here about the image of 'creation'
the most amazing image of all time according to some,
An image of less than 4 megapixels! I was shocked at how low res it was...

Someone please tell me I'm wrong here... :-)

Then the raw satellite data have to be massaged to create an image,
since they are basically a set of differential numbers,
here on earth you can't get anything but an isotropic flat image...

Here are some comments about the processing of COBE data:
How to take stuff out:
"it is customary to remove a best-fit monopole and dipole from the data
before performing any further analysis.

"Unfortunately, since incomplete sky coverage destroys the orthogonality of
the spherical harmonics, this procedure **covertly removes part of the
contribution of the higher multipoles."

"There are two ways to compensate for this. The first option is to treat the monopole
and dipole coefficients <...> as nuisance parameters,"
i.e., quantities whose true values we neither know nor care about."

and how to put stuff back in:
"In the context of Bayesian analysis, the natural thing to do with
nuisance parameters is to marginalize over them."

"...if we are performing some sort of data compression, then we have a second
option for dealing with the monopole and dipole."

"We can simply impose a constraint on our compression matrix A, requiring
it to be insensitive to the unwanted multipoles."

"People frequently remove the quadrupole information from the COBE data
in the same way as the monopole and dipole, on the grounds that the
quadrupole is particularly susceptible to Galactic contamination."

'Anomolies' are noted:
"It has also been known since the earliest days of COBE analysis
that the quadrupole is anomalously low
(compared to the prediction of a power spectrum normalized
to the other multipoles)."

The issue of ethics is touched on:
"From a statistical point of view, this is a delicate situation:
it is perfectly acceptable, and even wise, to throw away data
if there is a reasonable fear of contamination, but throwing away data
that is known a priori to be discordant with favored theories
is a major statistical faux pas...."
https://uam.es/personal_pas/txrf/frm/as ... 607088.pdf

This is why it appears impossible for normal unsophisticated people like myself to find out the equivalent image resolutions of the different skymaps. It's the image data is embedded in the HEALPix file, which really has a whole bunch of numbers, stored at different resolutions meaning different things....
There is no resolution, it's buried in multiple mathematical datasets that have different 'resolutions' depending what you want to examine like field density... the cartographic projection is a new one, never seen in science before.. a combination of two different projections... all to ease the probability functions

But the Emperor has no clothes! It ***cannot work...

In an analogy, if you were to give me a rectangular school photo, of a set of people, in a typical format, with a resolution of say 2500 x 1800 pixels, and then I were to superimpose a layer containing an image from the Planck team of just the foreground contamination recorded by that satellite, and then 'flattened' that image layer, it would destroy most of the image information in the school photo... I would be left with a hybrid image of no scientific or nostalgic value... I might recognise a few faces provided they weren't near the galactic centre, but most picture information and quality would be lost.

To pretend that I could get the school photo faces back by Bayesian or Monte Carlo probability functions is just not believable...

In the case of the CMB, the theory is that the original background, aka the school photo is almost completely featureless, and hides behind dust maps, stars, dipole moments and such.. to 'see' the smooth background you have to 'subtract' all the dirt, dust and pigeon poop, and you are left with gaps.
These holes of missing information are then mathematically filled in by a very fancy probabilistic clone tool, which makes the unbelievable claim that it can introduce information which has never been, or 'probably' never can be made visible or measurable, then we have to believe we can examine an edited photoshopped 'smoothed' skymap to distinguish values to a precision of approx 3 in 100,000

I just don't believe that the CMB radiation is from the Big Bang. ... convince me otherwise :-)

Higgsy
Posts: 217
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Higgsy » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:00 am

Hi Zyxzevn
Zyxzevn wrote:
Could you expand on this? In particular, why is a boundary needed?
Radiation needs to come from something.
That is the basic concept of radiation.
Of course radiation needs to come from something, I fully agree with that - but why does it have come from a boundary (I assume you mean a physical boundary). Take an optically thin plasma - we can detect photons from inside the plasma.
Even if such objects or boundaries would exist, which is incompatible with the big bang,
it would not produce a "black body" spectrum.
Wouldn't it? Why not?
The inflation model of the big bang has no borders, except for a border in time.
(When there was no space nor time :roll: ).
When you say border, do you mean boundary? But again, why is a boundary required? The mainstream explanation for the CMB is that at the time of decoupling of radiation and matter (about 380,000 years after the Big Bang, the entire universe was filled with photons with a thermal signature (black body spectrum) at 3,000K, and that those photons have been propagating ever since. So the current universe is filled with these photons travelling in all directions which is why the CMB appears to come from every direction equally. That's the mainstream explanation. What do you find wrong with it? It doesn't rely on a boundary or border. (There's a thing called the surface of last scattering which we can go into if you like, but it''s not a material surface).
What do you mean by an equal distribution of energy? How do photons lose energy in the ISM and why does that produce a black body spectrum?
The dark cold plasma is a black body in essence.
To keep it simple: It is matter that is black on most of the measured frequencies.
The polarisation of the radiation will be affected by the EM-fields in the plasma.
I'm sorry - which plasma are we talking about now? The point about radiation from plasma is that it does not produce a BB spectrum - emission from a plasma contains the emission lines of all the molecular and atomic species that make up the plasma - the specific excited state transitions are what tells you the make-up of the plasma. That's how spectroscopy is done. It's specifically not thermal.
The only question is whether we measure the plasma (and matter) around the earth, the plasma around the sun, the plasma inside the milky way, or the plasma between the galaxies.
Well, as I say, plasma doesn't produce a thermal spectrum.

But let me turn this on its head. Appearently the EU doesn't accept the mainstream explanation for the source of the 2.73K uniform radiation that can be measured on the earth's surface, above the earth's atmosphere, and even 1.5 million kilometers away from the earth. So what is the EU explanation for this radiation?
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

Higgsy
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Higgsy » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:04 pm

Hi Sketch,
sketch1946 wrote:Hi higgsy,
I appreciate your questions about my posts...
SNIP
I just don't believe that the CMB radiation is from the Big Bang. ... convince me otherwise :-)
You know, I am not here to convince you of anything. I am here to learn what I can about the physics of the EU and plasma universe.

Yes, I have some knowledge of physics. What little knowledge and experience I have has taught me some important things when looking at competing or new ideas and concepts.

One thing is that our intuition is a very poor guide to determining what is actually going on in the Universe. Right from the beginning of physics as we know it, the first physicists discovered things that seem unremarkable now, but went entirely against the intuitions of the vast majority of people at the time. I'm thinking of the path traced out by a ballistic object (we know it's a parabola now; they thought it fell straight down); of the heliocentric nature of the solar system (intuitively it's geocentric); of the constituents of white light (no-one thought that white light is simply made of the sum of all the colours until Newton did his prism experiments); of the fact that things keep going unless a force acts to decelerate them; of the fact that the air has mass; and so on and so on. The very worst way to arrive at a true belief about nature is to pick one that "seems right", because more often than not it'll be wrong. Physics is deeply counter-intuitive.

The second thing is to be precise about every statement, even to the point of obsession. Physics uses very precisely defined terms and if someone is using those terms with a different or muddled meaning, then confusion will follow, and exchange of information will be impossible. So when physicists talk about pressure, or temperature, or energy, or momentum, all physicists know precisely what is meant. So if someone says that current is a coherent flow of photons, that rings alarm bells, because that is not at all what physicists mean by current. So it might seem that I am being over the top with my questions, but that is only because I am trying to understand the claim exactly and that can only benefit everyone in the discussion. Hence all my questions that start "So when you say X do you mean that..."

The third thing is that numbers matter. Physics is a quantitative science. If some one tells me that A has such and such a feature, my first question will be "How much of 'such and such' does A have? And what does the fact that A has this much 'such and such' mean for the 'this and that' in B?" The language of physics is maths, so to actually do physics you need some mathematical education.

The fourth thing is that you have to take some things on trust, because you can't re-do every experiment and piece of theory from the dawn of time. And in very specialised areas, where you can't do the work yourself unless you spend four years as an apprentice, you have to take a lot on trust. The key question then is who to trust. For example, you wrote a lot about the data analysis of the CMB data in your last post, the data cleaning, the aperture function removal, the foreground removal, other things you didn't mention like removal of the integrated Sachs-Wolfe and the Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effects. I am not familiar with the fine details of all these computations and I guess you're not either. But I do know that the results from three different satellite missions, with data reduction on the raw data carried out by different teams using different data reduction algorithms results in compatible cleaned sky maps. On the other hand, there is Robittaille who, whatever his expertise may be, is not expert in this area, and who has claimed that the source of the CMB is thermal radiation from the earth's oceans. With WMAP and Planck at L2 1.5 million kilometers away, that raises a red flag about him in my mind. YMMV. But I encourage you and others to think about your motivation for preferring, shall I call them mavericks, over the profession. Of course mavericks are sometimes right and the profession wrong, but for me it's not a default position.

Now turning to your question of failure of physics - that does depend a bit on your perspective. I have seen many really exciting advances which have become well established in my lifetime. On the other hand, at the boundaries of the most fundamental science, progress has been slow or stalled for 25 years. In particular, the reconciliation of GR and QM via quantum gravity and string theory isn't going well. Detecting exotic matter is turning out to be frustratingly elusive. The fine-tuning problem is no closer to solution and so on. So we do need to explore some new avenues, hence my presence here, to see whether at least on the cosmology front, EU has something to say which could get things moving again.

On the other hand we don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water so when people make statements, I tend to ask questions, and some might seem quite rude, but it's helpful if people at least try to answer them, because that at least clarifies the claims.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Zyxzevn » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:25 pm

Higgsy wrote:When you say border, do you mean boundary? But again, why is a boundary required? The mainstream explanation for the CMB is that at the time of decoupling of radiation and matter (about 380,000 years after the Big Bang, the entire universe was filled with photons with a thermal signature (black body spectrum) at 3,000K, and that those photons have been propagating ever since. So the current universe is filled with these photons travelling in all directions which is why the CMB appears to come from every direction equally. That's the mainstream explanation. What do you find wrong with it? It doesn't rely on a boundary or border. (There's a thing called the surface of last scattering which we can go into if you like, but it''s not a material surface).
To over confuse things, as is normal with the BB in my opinion:
So the BB just makes photons appear out of nowhere (and no time).
While at the same time, this source is nowhere (and at no time).

If the BB really created photons, they will just go into one direction.
So if I imagine that a BB created photons all over the universe at one time,
these photons will simply disappear into the ever expanding edges of space.
We would not see these photons any more at the present moment, because this edge is
retreating faster than light (according to the BB theories I learned).

So it is more likely that the photons come from nearby.
Well, as I say, plasma doesn't produce a thermal spectrum.
What?

Radiation is caused by electrons (and nuclei) moving to different states.
In solids, liquids and gasses these electrons are mostly restricted to bands.
These give off the well known emission and absorption spectra.
The frequency of one "photon" depends on the distance between the electron and the nucleus.

But there are many other possible ways electrons and nuclei can move to create
photons. This makes it possible to create photons of many different frequencies.

In liquids like water, it is possible to create photons with the vanderwaals forces.
In solids we can emit light with diodes for example.

in plasma the electrons and nuclei can interact in almost any way.
This means that in cold sparse plasma we will likely see a black body spectrum.
Even the sun's spectrum is close to black body curve.

But let's go deeper:
the 2.73K uniform radiation that can be measured on the earth's surface, above the earth's atmosphere, and even 1.5 million kilometers away from the earth
According to our radiation specialist Robitaille, this statement is wrong. And I agree with his view.
The radiation as measured by the furthest sensors, if you use the non-modified data,
appear to be from point-sources, and not from a wide range of radiation.
He states that the source nearer to earth might come from water, which indeed may be possible.
It is already suspect that we get so much variation in the CBR maps.
It is certainly something that I wanted to test and correct for if I were working in this field.

Sadly there are not many people in astronomy that know much about
radiation and electromagnetism in practice.
The problem is that the modern scientists are more interested in confirming their wild theories,
this increases the chance of a systematic misidentification enormously.
It would already be better if science would separate between things that "might" be true
(if we follow a certain theory for example) and a things that are (likely to be) correct,
because they have been tested in as many ways as possible.

In this case: we might have a background radiation signal, but because many scientists believe
that it is evidence for the big bang, this signal has not been looked at with critical eyes.
People get promoted and new amazing projects due to this discovery.
But science does not improve with promotions and these projects, while removing the critical eyes.
It improves by looking critical at their own results and find out more.

My experience is that this is currently a problem in every field of science.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Zyxzevn » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:45 pm

Higgsy wrote:For example, you wrote a lot about the data analysis of the CMB data in your last post, the data cleaning, the aperture function removal, the foreground removal, other things you didn't mention like removal of the integrated Sachs-Wolfe and the Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effects. I am not familiar with the fine details of all these computations and I guess you're not either. But I do know that the results from three different satellite missions, with data reduction on the raw data carried out by different teams using different data reduction algorithms results in compatible cleaned sky maps. On the other hand, there is Robittaille who, whatever his expertise may be, is not expert in this area, and who has claimed that the source of the CMB is thermal radiation from the earth's oceans. With WMAP and Planck at L2 1.5 million kilometers away, that raises a red flag about him in my mind. YMMV.
Robitaille is a specialist in radio systems. With a very high level of practical knowledge.
I have some knowledge of antenna systems too and worked a bit on SAR satellites.
He states that on earth we most likely receive the radiation from water, instead from the universe.
It is certainly something that is testable. He stated that the scientists reported that near water
the signal became stronger, which is probably somewhere in the literature.
He explains how one satellite had a wrong designed antenna, and might have easily picked up radiation
from earthly source. As I know antenna technology, I fully agree with this observation.
He shows by combining the images, how the planck antenna only found point sources,
which I agree with too.

Whether or not I am an expert in this area, it is clear that the Planck images should not show point sources.
So clearly something went wrong in the very complex process.
Some of the problems were:
1) they substracted one image from the other. This hides the point sources and increased noise.
2) they used data from a lower image to "enhance" the Planck image.

In signal processing (which I know too) this is very bad.

In normal words: You make two images of your mother, and subtract them.
This removes your mother and some other scenery from the image.
Then you add an older picture of your mother and put it in the same place and use a merge function.
Wow, your mother looks years younger now.
It is really the same thing.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Zyxzevn » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:56 pm

Higgsy wrote: Now turning to your question of failure of physics - that does depend a bit on your perspective. I have seen many really exciting advances which have become well established in my lifetime. On the other hand, at the boundaries of the most fundamental science, progress has been slow or stalled for 25 years. In particular, the reconciliation of GR and QM via quantum gravity and string theory isn't going well. Detecting exotic matter is turning out to be frustratingly elusive. The fine-tuning problem is no closer to solution and so on. So we do need to explore some new avenues, hence my presence here, to see whether at least on the cosmology front, EU has something to say which could get things moving again.
Thanks for showing up and giving us something to discuss about.

One easy step would be if you looked at magnetic reconnection,
which is based upon wrong ideas of Electromagnetism.
And use normal Electromagnetism to replace magnetic-flux-lines
with electric currents.

It does not require much change in anyone's understanding of physics,
and it can improve the understanding of the sun enormously.

If you want to do a huge step, you could look at this article:
A Relationship between Dispersion Measure and
Redshift Derived in Terms of New Tired Light(pdf)

Which is a totally different approach to dealing with redshift.
Somewhere on the forum, there is also a link to laboratory experiments that show
that plasma can indeed cause redshifts.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by upriver » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:18 pm

Zyxzevn wrote:
Higgsy wrote:When you say border, do you mean boundary? But again, why is a boundary required? The mainstream explanation for the CMB is that at the time of decoupling of radiation and matter (about 380,000 years after the Big Bang, the entire universe was filled with photons with a thermal signature (black body spectrum) at 3,000K, and that those photons have been propagating ever since. So the current universe is filled with these photons travelling in all directions which is why the CMB appears to come from every direction equally. That's the mainstream explanation. What do you find wrong with it? It doesn't rely on a boundary or border. (There's a thing called the surface of last scattering which we can go into if you like, but it''s not a material surface).
To over confuse things, as is normal with the BB in my opinion:
So the BB just makes photons appear out of nowhere (and no time).
While at the same time, this source is nowhere (and at no time).

If the BB really created photons, they will just go into one direction.
So if I imagine that a BB created photons all over the universe at one time,
these photons will simply disappear into the ever expanding edges of space.
We would not see these photons any more at the present moment, because this edge is
retreating faster than light (according to the BB theories I learned).

So it is more likely that the photons come from nearby.
Well, as I say, plasma doesn't produce a thermal spectrum.
What?

Radiation is caused by electrons (and nuclei) moving to different states.
In solids, liquids and gasses these electrons are mostly restricted to bands.
These give off the well known emission and absorption spectra.
The frequency of one "photon" depends on the distance between the electron and the nucleus.

But there are many other possible ways electrons and nuclei can move to create
photons. This makes it possible to create photons of many different frequencies.

In liquids like water, it is possible to create photons with the vanderwaals forces.
In solids we can emit light with diodes for example.

in plasma the electrons and nuclei can interact in almost any way.
This means that in cold sparse plasma we will likely see a black body spectrum.
Even the sun's spectrum is close to black body curve.

But let's go deeper:
the 2.73K uniform radiation that can be measured on the earth's surface, above the earth's atmosphere, and even 1.5 million kilometers away from the earth
According to our radiation specialist Robitaille, this statement is wrong. And I agree with his view.
The radiation as measured by the furthest sensors, if you use the non-modified data,
appear to be from point-sources, and not from a wide range of radiation.
He states that the source nearer to earth might come from water, which indeed may be possible.
It is already suspect that we get so much variation in the CBR maps.
It is certainly something that I wanted to test and correct for if I were working in this field.

Sadly there are not many people in astronomy that know much about
radiation and electromagnetism in practice.
The problem is that the modern scientists are more interested in confirming their wild theories,
this increases the chance of a systematic misidentification enormously.
It would already be better if science would separate between things that "might" be true
(if we follow a certain theory for example) and a things that are (likely to be) correct,
because they have been tested in as many ways as possible.

In this case: we might have a background radiation signal, but because many scientists believe
that it is evidence for the big bang, this signal has not been looked at with critical eyes.
People get promoted and new amazing projects due to this discovery.
But science does not improve with promotions and these projects, while removing the critical eyes.
It improves by looking critical at their own results and find out more.

My experience is that this is currently a problem in every field of science.
In general, the density of the Plasma is what determines the line width of the spectral signature.
As the plasma density changes from thin to a solid the line shape goes from a line to a continuum to a Black Body curve, which is only emitted from solids.
A deep thin plasma only produces lines...
Look up highdensity plasma arc spectrum.

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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Post by Higgsy » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:27 am

Hi Zyxzevn
Zyxzevn wrote: To over confuse things, as is normal with the BB in my opinion:
So the BB just makes photons appear out of nowhere (and no time).
While at the same time, this source is nowhere (and at no time).
I suppose a cosmologist would say the source is at 380,000 years after the Big Bang and is located everywhere in the universe.
If the BB really created photons, they will just go into one direction.
Why do you think that is?
So if I imagine that a BB created photons all over the universe at one time,
these photons will simply disappear into the ever expanding edges of space.
I'm not sure you've quite got the picture. The idea is that if photons fill the universe travelling in all directions then the universe would still be filled with photons travelling in all directions.
We would not see these photons any more at the present moment, because this edge is
retreating faster than light (according to the BB theories I learned).
I'm still not sure what this edge is that you are referring to? Do you mean some sort of boundary to the universe itself?
Radiation is caused by electrons (and nuclei) moving to different states.
In solids, liquids and gasses these electrons are mostly restricted to bands.
These give off the well known emission and absorption spectra.
The frequency of one "photon" depends on the distance between the electron and the nucleus.
Exactly - this is precisely why emission from a plasma doesn't look like a BB spectrum, because a BB spectrum does not contain the structure of atomic transition lines that are observed in plasma emission and absorpton spectra.
But there are many other possible ways electrons and nuclei can move to create
photons. This makes it possible to create photons of many different frequencies.
True, but the fact is that actual emission from plasmas are not BB. Are you suggesting that plasmas emit black body radiation?
In liquids like water, it is possible to create photons with the vanderwaals forces.
In solids we can emit light with diodes for example.
Not sure what the relevance of this is to plasmas.
in plasma the electrons and nuclei can interact in almost any way.
This means that in cold sparse plasma we will likely see a black body spectrum.
Even the sun's spectrum is close to black body curve.
But I don't think that's what we see - not even from the sun, which has a spectrum that is very broadly black body in shape but with a large number of Fraunhofer lines relating to specific atomic species. As for diffuse plasmas, the spectrum is very much not black body, being broadly confined to the transition energies of the atomic species of its constituents.
the 2.73K uniform radiation that can be measured on the earth's surface, above the earth's atmosphere, and even 1.5 million kilometers away from the earth
According to our radiation specialist Robitaille, this statement is wrong. And I agree with his view.
The radiation as measured by the furthest sensors, if you use the non-modified data,
appear to be from point-sources, and not from a wide range of radiation.
Could you give me a reference to that? What would the point sorces be?
He states that the source nearer to earth might come from water, which indeed may be possible.
It is already suspect that we get so much variation in the CBR maps.
What do you mean by that? What variation are you referring to? What is the temperature variation in the CMB maps as measured by Planck and WMAP?
It is certainly something that I wanted to test and correct for if I were working in this field.
What is it that you'd want to correct for?
Sadly there are not many people in astronomy that know much about
radiation and electromagnetism in practice.
Can I ask whether that's a statement that you make from experience? In other words, are you familiar with the scientists working in a number of astronomy and astrophysics departments, and you can vouch from your own knowledge of radiation and electromagnetism that they don't know much about these subjects?
It would already be better if science would separate between things that "might" be true
(if we follow a certain theory for example) and a things that are (likely to be) correct,
because they have been tested in as many ways as possible.
I absolutely agree with that.
In this case: we might have a background radiation signal, but because many scientists believe
that it is evidence for the big bang, this signal has not been looked at with critical eyes.
People get promoted and new amazing projects due to this discovery.
But science does not improve with promotions and these projects, while removing the critical eyes.
It improves by looking critical at their own results and find out more.
Can I ask whether you have read the papers put out by the WMAP and Planck teams? There are over a hundred, maybe two or three hundred (I haven't counted them), very detailed official team papers on these missions, from the basic designs of the instruments, through very deep analysis of potential errors and noise sources, to the methods for data analysis, to the findings and their implications for cosmology. These papers are all freely available - they are not behind paywalls. Then there are literally hundreds of papers reanalysing the data from independent teams, sometimes in extremely critical ways. Have you read any of those?
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

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