Albert Einstein and the speed of light

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Higgsy
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by Higgsy » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:04 am

Zyxzevn wrote:
Higgsy wrote:For example, you wrote a lot about the data analysis of the CMB data in your last post, the data cleaning, the aperture function removal, the foreground removal, other things you didn't mention like removal of the integrated Sachs-Wolfe and the Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effects. I am not familiar with the fine details of all these computations and I guess you're not either. But I do know that the results from three different satellite missions, with data reduction on the raw data carried out by different teams using different data reduction algorithms results in compatible cleaned sky maps. On the other hand, there is Robittaille who, whatever his expertise may be, is not expert in this area, and who has claimed that the source of the CMB is thermal radiation from the earth's oceans. With WMAP and Planck at L2 1.5 million kilometers away, that raises a red flag about him in my mind. YMMV.
Robitaille is a specialist in radio systems.With a very high level of practical knowledge.
Is he? I thought he was an expert in medical radiology?
I have some knowledge of antenna systems too and worked a bit on SAR satellites.
Excellent. Do you know what sort of antennae are used in these intruments? Are you familiar with the designs? Could you describe them for us?
He states that on earth we most likely receive the radiation from water, instead from the universe.
It is certainly something that is testable. He stated that the scientists reported that near water
the signal became stronger, which is probably somewhere in the literature.
Does he say where in the literature this can be found? Do you think that it's likely that if a connection with water was made, then that would be ignored? The temperature and spectrum of the CMB was first measured with accuracy by the Boomerang balloon experiment. Have you read those papers? Do you think that the bolometers on those intruments were looking anywhere in the direction of the earth?
He explains how one satellite had a wrong designed antenna, and might have easily picked up radiation
from earthly source. As I know antenna technology, I fully agree with this observation.
This is a very important statement, as Robitaille is not here but you are, and you're saying that you agree with him, based on your own expertise, that one satellite had a "wrong designed antenna". So we can really get some understanding of the problem from you. Which satellite was it? What was specifically wrong with the design of the antenna, in your view? What was the consequence of the error, in your view?
He shows by combining the images, how the planck antenna only found point sources,
which I agree with too.
Could you give us a reference or link to that?
Whether or not I am an expert in this area, it is clear that the Planck images should not show point sources.
I agree with you - the Planck images should show the Gaussian, nearly scale-invariant anisotropy. It shouldn't show point sources. So can we get the reference that illustrates the point sources?
So clearly something went wrong in the very complex process.
Some of the problems were:
1) they substracted one image from the other. This hides the point sources and increased noise.
2) they used data from a lower image to "enhance" the Planck image.
Again, can you give us a reference where we can read about this subtraction and use of a "lower image" to enhance the Planck image?
In signal processing (which I know too) this is very bad.

In normal words: You make two images of your mother, and subtract them.
This removes your mother and some other scenery from the image.
Then you add an older picture of your mother and put it in the same place and use a merge function.
Wow, your mother looks years younger now.
It is really the same thing.
A reference which describes the process to which this analogy relates would be really helpful.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

Higgsy
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by Higgsy » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:45 am

Zyxzevn wrote:
Higgsy wrote: Now turning to your question of failure of physics - that does depend a bit on your perspective. I have seen many really exciting advances which have become well established in my lifetime. On the other hand, at the boundaries of the most fundamental science, progress has been slow or stalled for 25 years. In particular, the reconciliation of GR and QM via quantum gravity and string theory isn't going well. Detecting exotic matter is turning out to be frustratingly elusive. The fine-tuning problem is no closer to solution and so on. So we do need to explore some new avenues, hence my presence here, to see whether at least on the cosmology front, EU has something to say which could get things moving again.
Thanks for showing up and giving us something to discuss about.
Thank you.
One easy step would be if you looked at magnetic reconnection,
which is based upon wrong ideas of Electromagnetism.
And use normal Electromagnetism to replace magnetic-flux-lines
with electric currents.

It does not require much change in anyone's understanding of physics,
and it can improve the understanding of the sun enormously.
I'm sorry, you've completely lost me. What is it you are suggesting I do?
If you want to do a huge step, you could look at this article:
A Relationship between Dispersion Measure and
Redshift Derived in Terms of New Tired Light(pdf)

Which is a totally different approach to dealing with redshift.
Somewhere on the forum, there is also a link to laboratory experiments that show
that plasma can indeed cause redshifts.
Thank you - I have looked at the paper, and it's very interesting. I am a bit puzzled though by the mechanism that he puts forward. He says in his lead-up to his equation 32 that the recoil of the electron on absorbing a photon is given by a particular expression which he references to ref 37, which is a 1960s introductory text on Special Relativity which I have no access to, so I can't see where he gets his expression for the energy transferred to the electron Q2/2mec2. Equation 34 looks like the well known Compton scattering expression except that it's missing the term (1-cos(theta)) where theta is the angle through which the photon is scattered. In his case the photon continues on the same path, so theta is zero and the change in wavelength would be zero. I am also puzzled by his suggestion that the photon would lose energy both on absorption and re-emission as he really doesn't give a rationale for this. But most of all, I am puzzled, because the absorption of a photon by a free electron does not happen - such a process cannot satisfy both conservation of energy and the conservation of momentum at the same time. So I would say that his fundamental process is at best questionable.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

sketch1946
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:56 pm

Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by sketch1946 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:56 am

Hi Higgsy,
I'm trying to understand the geometry of the standard BB theory...
As far as I understand so far, the initial event is a mystery, but after that, it's necessary for a believable theory to come up with ways for the different elements and molecules to form from simple ingredients... these have to come together in a way that explains the apparent amounts of these fundamental building blocks of the universe... so there are a complex series of epochs happening immediately after the initial event, for which tiny fractions of seconds are assigned... then there's a period where just photons are boiling around, losing energy enough to combine together to emit light...

These theories are formed by tweaking the maths to integrate various parameters like the hubble constant and other physical numbers to get the answers to come out right... a slight modification here and the universe 'blows up' or a tweak here and galaxies don't form or in the wrong places or times etc

Don't get too picky here, i'm just trying to set a kindergarten style prelude to the geometry of the time of last scattering when the CMB is so intense it's really hot, intense gamma rays... but then it cools down to 3000K and the universe starts expanding...

all this radiation is in a bubble with no theoretical edges, since we don't know what could be outside of 'everything'

This bubble of hot plasma, or gas or whatever the strictly correct word is, contained every particle in the universe, not as heavy metals and more dense matter, but just simple stuff, some of which later would be crushed into existence inside collapsing stars which blow up to create heavier elements....

When the original source CMB radiation is produced, it's all inside this bubble, and the primeval galaxies are just sub bubbles where the radiation statistically comes together in random fluctuations to form denser lumps of photons, raisins... the universe is a bun, and embryo galaxies are like raisins in this bun... the bun expands with time, and the molecules and dust of the raisins start to gravitate together... forming great clouds of dust or plasma or gas or local patches of denser matter...

This must have happened somewhere along some sort of timeline, so in theory these clumps that became galaxies should have been clustered randomly inside of the expanding universe... should be even visible one day with a new satellite and sophisticated enough maths....we are presumably living in the midst of one of these raisins...

So looking out into space from our present position in space and time, the photons that were emitted in all directions in this primeval bun were firing off and bumping into each other and this has gone on endlessly for 13.x billion years, due to the conservation of energy, these hot particles find a way to attract each other gravitationally to become collections of stars, which condense further in some cases to become galaxies... inside these galaxies the massive gravities cause black holes and quasars and such, all these secondary things we can skip for now...

In the meantime, these super hot gamma rays that are left over from forming stars and galaxies are slowly cooling down by the expansion of space itself, till they end up so cold and stretched out that they have become radiation at the very bottom of the microwave spectrum, roughly at the FM end of town... with wavelengths about 1 to 700 mm.. these rays are just zooming around inside the entire universe, emitting and being absorbed, and then emitting and being absorbed... such that on earth there are about 300 per sq cm per sec, they're the ultimate perfect blackbody radiation despite somehow forming clumps in the original blackbody?

Since they're inside the fabric of space itself, and we look up into the sky, we're looking through this radiation, not particularly at a source... it's everywhere, coming from all angles, the further out in space the more we should see... since light is believed to travel at a fixed speed, and it is believed to have always travelled at a constant speed, so then looking out into space the more distant a galaxy is, the more its light is redshifted, so the very furthest we can see is dark, because light has not arrived here yet from this distant past, or we can actually see some sort of horizon where there is nothing...

Yet since some galaxies seem to be over 40 billion light years away and receding from us faster than the speed of light, if that's the only way to explain redshifting, and we ignore gravitational redshifting, these superfast receding galaxies weren't that far away when their light started to travel towards us, but space itself expanded so we are seeing them with light that left when they were closer, that's how come they're receding away faster than the speed of light?

As a person well educated in the current paradigm, or model or whatever the correct term is, do you have any doubts about all this?

Do you really believe not so much that we can't make some fine differential measurements of temperature, but that we can measure the temperature differences of a few parts in a 100,000th of a degree, using statistical probability methods, to look through our own galaxy, with all this dust and stellar evolution, and expanding space, at a background which is not visible, and be confident that tiny fluctuations in these measurements, at least in the parts of space we can see clearly, represent embryo galaxies?

Or is it just that it's the best hypothesis so far for this CMB radiation?
You're not put off by the rather dodgy maths I've tried to point out, used to process the satellite data to produce a blackbody curve more precise than can be produced experimentally, you're not worried about the statistical methods to 'subtract' noise or 'contamination', it doesn't cause any doubts?

Just asking...

sketch1946
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:56 pm

Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by sketch1946 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:15 am

Hi Higgsy,
This is from a standard page on the current hypothesis of BB...

"In essence, quantum fluctuations causing temperature differences in this inflation field (on the subatomic scale) get exponentially blown up to astrophysical sizes. The most remarkable thing about this is that observations of the cosmic microwave background radiation (from WMAP and ESO’s Planck observatory) agree with the prediction of inflation, providing the strongest evidence for this theory yet."
Higgsy wrote:the absorption of a photon by a free electron does not happen - such a process cannot satisfy both conservation of energy and the conservation of momentum at the same time. So I would say that his fundamental process is at best questionable.
'atoms formed nuclei'?
"380, 000 years when the nearly uniform soup cooled to about 3000 Kelvin, atoms formed nuclei and electrons. Photons ceased to scatter and streamed through space unhindered, turning the prior opaque universe into one with visible light."

Have you any ideas on what caused 'temperature differences' and how this soup cooled down, conserving energy and momentum, and when it did cool down, had enough energy for 'atoms' to form nuclei and electrons?

How can a body with denser clumps produce a perfect blackbody radiation?
"A black body in thermal equilibrium (that is, at a constant temperature) emits electromagnetic radiation called black-body radiation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body
Do you have any insight on the 'dark ages' that followed when galaxies sprang into being?
https://futurism.com/cosmology-the-time ... g-we-know/

sketch1946
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:56 pm

Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by sketch1946 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:12 am

Hi Higgsy,
I skimmed over that post to see what you were saying....
I haven't read enough to say anything about the theory though... :-)
Higgsy wrote:Equation 34 looks like the well known Compton scattering expression except that it's missing the term (1-cos(theta)) where theta is the angle through which the photon is scattered. In his case the photon continues on the same path, so theta is zero and the change in wavelength would be zero.

In an appendix the author explains:
"Appendix B. Why It Cannot Be Compton Scatter That Causes the Redshifts
Some researches confuse NTL with the Compton Effect and this is definitely not the case."

"In Compton scatter the photons are assumed to be absorbed and re-emitted instantaneously as there is no mechanism within Compton Scatter that the “free” electron can store the energy during any delay.
Hence, to conserve momentum, the photon goes off to one side whilst the electron goes off to the other. There is no possibility of a loss in energy in the forward direction and hence a redshift along the line of sight as it cannot recoil in this direction since absorption and re-emission take place instantaneously.
The light is scattered as it travels along and the image would blur. This is not seen in observations."

"In NTL the electrons are not free but interact loosely with the other charges in the plasma.
If an electron is displaced in the forwards direction, the region in front of it becomes overall slightly negative since it has gained an electron and the region behind it has become slightly positive as an electron has moved away. Restoring forces act on the electron and thus it performs SHM.
Any electron that can perform SHM can absorb and re-emit photons."

"However, since there is a delay, between absorption and re-emission the energy of the photon is transferred to vibrational energy of the electron with a tiny amount going to Kinetic energy of the recoiling electron."

"Whilst the vibrational energy is re-emitted as a new photon the KE has been lost to the photon and is
emitted as a secondary photon that forms the CMB..."
Higgsy wrote:But most of all, I am puzzled, because the absorption of a photon by a free electron does not happen - such a process cannot satisfy both conservation of energy and the conservation of momentum at the same time. So I would say that his fundamental process is at best questionable.
I think he's talking about electrons that are part of atoms?

"The collision cross-section, σ for a photon-electron interaction
where the photon is absorbed can be found from low energy X-rays
interacting with matter [38]-[40].
<equation>
where f2 is one of two “scattering factors” dependent upon the number of electrons
in the atom and tends to equal that number for atoms of low atomic number (as the number of electrons in an atom increase they start to shield each other and so f2 is less).

For Hydrogen f2 has values between 0 and 1
whilst for Helium f2 has values between 0 and 2.

For resonant absorption where the frequency of the incoming photon is
equivalent to an energy level difference, f2 = 1 and the photon is not
re-emitted. If the frequency of the incoming photon is well away
from any resonant frequency in the atom
2reλ2 = 0 meaning the photon is not absorbed but re-emitted.

Collision cross-sections are basically probabilities.

Consequently we see that the collision cross-section for photo-absorption consists of
the Probability of the electron absorbing the photon

.

Higgsy
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by Higgsy » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:13 pm

Hi Sketch
sketch1946 wrote:Hi Higgsy,
I'm trying to understand the geometry of the standard BB theory...

SNIP to save space.
There's a lot I could say about the scenario you painted, there are many ways in which it isn't what the mainstream claims, but you asked me not to be picky, so let's just accept it as scene setting for your more interesting questions below.
In the meantime, these super hot gamma rays that are left over from forming stars and galaxies are slowly cooling down by the expansion of space itself, till they end up so cold and stretched out that they have become radiation at the very bottom of the microwave spectrum, roughly at the FM end of town... with wavelengths about 1 to 700 mm.. these rays are just zooming around inside the entire universe, emitting and being absorbed, and then emitting and being absorbed... such that on earth there are about 300 per sq cm per sec, they're the ultimate perfect blackbody radiation despite somehow forming clumps in the original blackbody?
Um, not quite. The CMB at decoupling peaks in the near IR not gamma. The photons are "zooming" around and the ones we see have been travelling uninterrupted since decoupling - not absorbed and re-emitted. The matter clumps are already forming at decoupling (seeded by random quantum fluctuations in the universe), so the tiny temperature anisotropies we see in the CMB are a result of arising from denser or less dense regions (owing to gravitational red-shift and the fact that the denser regions are hotter in the first place). There's no reason why any of this should affect the black body spectrum as all photons arising from a particular place are affected by the same amount.
Since they're inside the fabric of space itself, and we look up into the sky, we're looking through this radiation, not particularly at a source... it's everywhere, coming from all angles, the further out in space the more we should see...
You can't see photons unless they arrive at your instrument. You can't see photons which are somewhere else.
since light is believed to travel at a fixed speed, and it is believed to have always travelled at a constant speed, so then looking out into space the more distant a galaxy is, the more its light is redshifted, so the very furthest we can see is dark, because light has not arrived here yet from this distant past, or we can actually see some sort of horizon where there is nothing...
OK, the most distant, oldest light we can see is the CMB, because before decoupling, matter and radiation were tightly coupled and photons could not propagate freely, so we can't see anything further back in time or further in distance.
Yet since some galaxies seem to be over 40 billion light years away and receding from us faster than the speed of light, if that's the only way to explain redshifting, and we ignore gravitational redshifting, these superfast receding galaxies weren't that far away when their light started to travel towards us, but space itself expanded so we are seeing them with light that left when they were closer, that's how come they're receding away faster than the speed of light?
Yes
As a person well educated in the current paradigm, or model or whatever the correct term is, do you have any doubts about all this?
Of course, it's in the nature of science to doubt. But none of this is my area of expertise - I'm just reading the literature like you.
Do you really believe not so much that we can't make some fine differential measurements of temperature, but that we can measure the temperature differences of a few parts in a 100,000th of a degree, using statistical probability methods,
I don't know what you mean by statistical probability methods, but whether or not we can measure these temperature differences is an engineering question, not a pure physics question, so you have to look at the design of the instrumentation and data analysis to answer that. I am no expert in the CMB, but I have read the papers and I don't see a glaring boo-boo. Do you?
to look through our own galaxy, with all this dust and stellar evolution, and expanding space, at a background which is not visible, and be confident that tiny fluctuations in these measurements, at least in the parts of space we can see clearly, represent embryo galaxies?
When you say the background is not visible, what do you mean? Do you mean it's not visible with the naked eye? Not in the visible part of the spectrum? The thing is that different satellite missions using different instrument designs and different and independently developed data analysis arrive at similar sky maps. Whether the fluctuations represent embryo galaxies is a different matter, but on balance, that seems to be the case.
Or is it just that it's the best hypothesis so far for this CMB radiation?
I think it's a pretty good hypothesis. There's more to the CMB structure than we have discussed in this thread, and there is structure in the CMB anisotropy statistics (specifically in a thing called the power spectrum) that fits in with other good hypotheses about the early universe (in particular a phenomenon called baryon acoustic oscillations and nucleosynthesis)
You're not put off by the rather dodgy maths I've tried to point out, used to process the satellite data to produce a blackbody curve more precise than can be produced experimentally,
I must have missed where you presented the dodgy maths that arrives at a BB spectrum - sorry about that - perhaps you could re-post it?
you're not worried about the statistical methods to 'subtract' noise or 'contamination', it doesn't cause any doubts?
It's complex, and of course questions arise (particularly since some aspects of the CMB statistics are unexpected; the missing energy at low-l, the unexpected low-l alignments, the tension between Planck and other measures of the Hubble constant and the hemisphere assymmetry are anomalies that have received a lot of attention), but I am comforted by the fact that different missions operated by different teams arrive at compatible results, which reduces the likelihood of systematic error. There might even be some new physics hiding in one of those anomalies that were observed by both missions and that would be very exciting.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

Higgsy
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:32 pm

Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by Higgsy » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:25 pm

sketch1946 wrote:Hi Higgsy,
This is from a standard page on the current hypothesis of BB...

"In essence, quantum fluctuations causing temperature differences in this inflation field (on the subatomic scale) get exponentially blown up to astrophysical sizes. The most remarkable thing about this is that observations of the cosmic microwave background radiation (from WMAP and ESO’s Planck observatory) agree with the prediction of inflation, providing the strongest evidence for this theory yet."
Higgsy wrote:the absorption of a photon by a free electron does not happen - such a process cannot satisfy both conservation of energy and the conservation of momentum at the same time. So I would say that his fundamental process is at best questionable.
'atoms formed nuclei'?
"380, 000 years when the nearly uniform soup cooled to about 3000 Kelvin, atoms formed nuclei and electrons. Photons ceased to scatter and streamed through space unhindered, turning the prior opaque universe into one with visible light."
I don't know what your source is but I guess there's a word missing there. "atoms formed from nuclei and electrons" makes more sense.
Have you any ideas on what caused 'temperature differences' and how this soup cooled down, conserving energy and momentum, and when it did cool down, had enough energy for 'atoms' to form nuclei and electrons?
The temperature difference is seeded by quantum fluctuations in the original universe - QM shows that nothing can be perfectly uniform. The theory says the soup cooled down by the expansion of space between the end of inflation and the time of decoupling (expansion at more or less the same rate we see now).
How can a body with denser clumps produce a perfect blackbody radiation?
"A black body in thermal equilibrium (that is, at a constant temperature) emits electromagnetic radiation called black-body radiation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body
I guess I covered that in the previous reply.
Do you have any insight on the 'dark ages' that followed when galaxies sprang into being?
https://futurism.com/cosmology-the-time ... g-we-know/[/quote]As I understand it, the Dark ages after decoupling are dark simply because no stars had yet formed from gravitational collapse.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

sketch1946
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:56 pm

Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by sketch1946 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:02 pm

"First detected by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson in 1965, the CMB is one of the most conclusive pieces of evidence in favour of the Big Bang. In particular, Big Bang theory predicts certain characteristics for the radiation left over from the birth of the Universe, all of which are confirmed by the CMB:"

It might seem pedantic, to keep reiterating that the Big Bang theory predicts things, which are then found....
It is a fact that the COBE data are manipulated using Bayesian and Monte Carlo techniques which mostly belong to the data processing of political opinion polls, weather forecasting and gambling rather than hard observational science, and modifications to BB theory are made using these statistical methods:
"...They are often used in physical and mathematical problems and are most useful when it is difficult or impossible to use other approaches.."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_method
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference

"However, the lack of power in the CMB temperature anisotropies at large angular scales (low-ℓ), as has been confirmed by the recent Planck data also (up to ℓ= 40), although statistically not very strong (less than 3σ), is still an open problem. One can avoid to seek an explanation for this problem by attributing the lack of power to cosmic variance or can look for explanations i.e., different inflationary potentials or initial conditions for inflation to begin with, non-trivial topology, ISW effect etc.
Features in the primordial power spectrum (PPS) motivated by the early universe physics has been the most common solution to address thisproblem. In the present work we also follow this approach and
consider a set of PPS which have features and constrain the parameters of those using WMAP 9 year and Planck data employing Markov-Chain Monte Carlo (MCMC) analysis..."
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1501.02647.pdf


"The multiple scattering of photons by a hot plasma in the early Universe should result in a blackbody spectrum for the photons once they have escaped at the epoch of reionisation. This is exactly what is observed for the CMB. The figure on the right plots a theoretical blackbody curve along with CMB data from the COsmic Background Explorer (COBE) satellite. The agreement is so good that it is impossible to distinguish the data from the theoretical curve."

Saying it again: The data from COBE are not raw data, it's data that has been manipulated by highly sophisticated probability algorithms to fill in the holes left by the foreground 'contamination', the dust and 'noise' of our galaxy etc, which means large parts of the data are not visible or measurable, so are photoshopped. Then claimed to be a 'perfect blackbody curve'
Values of the CMB 1967 - 1991.jpg
(image of variation in measurements prior to COBE)
The facts are that Gamov predicted 50K, his students modified this to 5K, Penzias and Wilson measured the wavelength at 7.5cm not 2mm, and many others before COBE measured different values, WMAP didn't measure the CMB directly, measuring temperature differences only against a reference 4K, and Planck did the same, measured differences from a standard temp, still using probability functions to fill in the missing unobservable background which remains permanently behind foreground 'contamination'; dust and noise which hide forever the hidden parts of the sky behind this 'noise':

"The photons of the CMB were emitted at the epoch of recombination when the Universe had a temperature of about 3,000 Kelvin. However, they have been cosmological redshifted to longer wavelengths during their ~13 billion year journey through the expanding Universe, and are now detected in the microwave region of the electromagnetic spectrum at an average temperature of 2.725 Kelvin. This agrees well with what Big Bang theory predicts."

Retrospectively predicted.... :-)

"Matter was instead distributed as a highly ionised plasma which was very efficient at scattering radiation. The result was that information (photons) from the early Universe were effectively trapped in an inpenetrable ‘fog’ which, to this day, hides these early times from astronomers."

"As the Universe expanded, however, its temperature and density dropped to a point where the atomic nuclei and electrons were able to combine to form atoms. This is known as the epoch of recombination, and it is at this time that photons were finally able to escape the fog of the early Universe and travel freely. The ‘Cosmic Microwave Background radiation’ (CMB) is the record of these photons at the moment of their escape."

More 'modern' theories modify this first scattering idea, various patches to the theory have the CMB changed later by some other theoretical effects...

"However, standard Big Bang theory does not account for all of the observed properties of the CMB. In particular, once we remove the dipole that arises due to our motion in the Universe, the CMB is incredibly uniform across the sky, varying by no more than one part in ten thousand. This suggests that regions of the Universe that are now widely separated, were once close enough to ‘communicate’ with each other in order to equalise their temperature. However, this is not possible given standard Big Bang theory, the age of the Universe, and the finite speed of light."

"The red line in the figure on the left shows that according to Big Bang theory, the Universe had a radius of more than 10^-10 metres at 10^-45 seconds after the Big Bang. Since the speed of light travels at 3×10^8 m/s, information could only have travelled ~3×10^-37 metres during this time. Big Bang theory therefore makes it impossible for the whole Universe to have equalised its temperature at these early times, as not all the Universe was in communication. In everyday life we cannot receive information beyond our horizon, so this is known as the horizon problem."

So here to 'fix' this Big Bang problem, an 'inflationary' period is introduced:
big bang inflationary epoch theory fix.jpg
"To resolve the horizon problem, astronomers introduced an inflationary period into the Big Bang model (blue region in figure). This sudden increase in the rate of expansion of the Universe soon after the Big Bang, resolves not only the horizon problem, but also the flatness problem. It has therefore been accepted as part of the current concordance model of cosmology."
(image of inflationary period)

Here is very bad science, IMHO
The logic is something like:
IF we have a fatal problem with the Big Bang idea...AND we can't think of a better way to describe this microwave background noise, THEN we'll just go with the Big Bang idea....
(0 + 1 = 1) :-)

"The presence of a background radiation which has a temperature, spectrum and uniformity consistent with Big Bang cosmology and inflation, is extremely difficult to produce by any other means. Therefore, astronomers believe that by studying the properties of the CMB, they are in fact studying the conditions of the early Universe."

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/C/C ... Background

Using Monte Carlo strings or Bayesian probability techniques, when you look backwards to look forwards to come up with new maths, once you start messing with probabilities in never-ending cycles of theory->falsification->patch theory=modified new theory etc you are firmly in Emperor's clothes territory....
the result is increasingly improbable... dark matter dark energy dark new physics, dark ages....
The basics of physics should always have some connection to observable reality IMHO

This is a taste of unbridled what-ifs:

If it is not integrated then:
"The non-integrated Sachs–Wolfe effect is caused by gravitational redshift occurring at the surface of last scattering. The effect is not constant across the sky due to differences in the matter/energy density at the time of last scattering."

or if it is integrated:
Integrated Sachs–Wolfe effect
"The integrated Sachs–Wolfe (ISW) effect is also caused by gravitational redshift, but it occurs between the surface of last scattering and the Earth, so it is not part of the primordial CMB. It occurs when the Universe is dominated in its energy density by something other than matter. If the Universe is dominated by matter, then large-scale gravitational potential energy wells and hills do not evolve significantly. If the Universe is dominated by radiation, or by dark energy, though, those potentials do evolve, subtly changing the energy of photons passing through them."

"There are two contributions to the ISW effect. The "early-time" ISW occurs immediately after the (non-integrated) Sachs–Wolfe effect produces the primordial CMB, as photons course through density fluctuations while there is still enough radiation around to affect the Universe's expansion. Although it is physically the same as the late-time ISW, for observational purposes it is usually lumped in with the primordial CMB, since the matter fluctuations that cause it are in practice undetectable."

undetectable :-)

or if it is something else: 'Late-time' integrated Sachs–Wolfe effect:
"The "late-time" ISW effect arises quite recently in cosmic history, as dark energy, or the cosmological constant, starts to govern the Universe's expansion. Unfortunately, the nomenclature is a bit confusing. Often, "late-time ISW" implicitly refers to the late-time ISW effect to linear/first order in density perturbations. This linear part of the effect ***entirely vanishes in a flat universe with only matter, but dominates over the higher-order part of the effect in a universe with dark energy. The full nonlinear (linear + higher-order) late-time ISW effect, especially in the case of individual voids and clusters, is sometimes known as the Rees–Sciama effect, since Martin Rees and Dennis Sciama elucidated the following physical picture."

"Accelerated expansion due to dark energy causes even strong large-scale potential wells (superclusters) and hills (voids) to decay over the time it takes a photon to travel through them. A photon gets a kick of energy going into a potential well (a supercluster), and it keeps some of that energy after it exits, after the well has been stretched out and shallowed. Similarly, a photon has to expend energy entering a supervoid, but will not get all of it back upon exiting the slightly squashed potential hill."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachs%E2% ... lfe_effect

Planck results 2015:
"The 2015 release upholds that of 2013, with only slight tweaks to various cosmological parameters. It still overwhelmingly favors an early universe defined entirely by six parameters, no matter how many ways the team pushed and prodded the data. These parameters are

1. The density of baryonic matter (a.k.a. normal, like you and me) in the first few minutes of the universe
2. The density of cold dark matter at that same time
3. How far sound waves had traveled when the CMB photons were released — also known as the “sound horizon” or the size of baryon acoustic oscillations
4. The fraction of CMB photons over the universe’s history that have scattered off particles set free by radiation from stars/quasars ionizing the neutral hydrogen filling the cosmos
5. The strength of the initial density fluctuations on a physical scale of about 65 million light-years (20 megaparsecs) at the end of inflation*
6. How the strength of the density fluctuations on various scales at the end of inflation changes with scale

"There’s still the strange problem of the missing galaxy clusters. The Planck team finds a certain lumpiness in the CMB, which should match up with the lumps in the distribution of matter in the universe (a.k.a. cosmic structure, which is made up of galaxy clusters). But Planck predicts about 2.5 times more clusters than are actually observed. This could be due to error in the estimates from either side, or due to new physics."

Could be due to error? Or is it 'new physics' .... wow!

"One neat result is that the era of reionization — basically, when the universe’s galaxies really started lighting up with stars — is later than estimated using data from Planck’s predecessor, WMAP. WMAP had favored reionization at a redshift of 10 (470 million years after the Big Bang), but Planck pegs it at 8.8 (560 million years after the Big Bang)."

WMAP caused a problem, no worries, Planck fixes it: :-)

“For many cosmologists, I would say that it is a relief,” says David Spergel (Princeton), who worked on the WMAP team. Scientists studying early star formation had a hard time explaining the earlier start time from WMAP, so a slightly later start is a good thing."

"These involve an inflation spawned by the decay of a single energy field, a field that decreased slowly compared to the universe’s expansion rate. (Given that the observable universe expanded at least 5 billion trillion times in 10 nano-nano-nano-nanoseconds, that’s not that slow.) The energy scale implied for inflation is less than 2 x 1016 gigaelectron volts, on par with the level expected for the merger of the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces into one (called the Grand Unified Theory). Physicists think these forces were united in the first mini-moment of the universe, then broke apart. Their breakup might somehow be connected to inflation."

"(Given that the observable universe expanded at least 5 billion trillion times in 10 nano-nano-nano-nanoseconds, that’s not that slow.)"

Whoops, might have to change another couple of parameters:
"*Updated: In the original version of this blog, the descriptions of cosmological parameter #5 and #6 described the same parameter. Parameter #5 is now updated to be the amplitude of the initial density fluctuations, and the scalar spectral index is now #6, to match the order given in the Planck literature. Fun fact: Planck's value of parameter #5 says that, after inflation, the density of matter varied only 0.000000002 on a scale of 20 megaparsecs. "

mmm
... might somehow...

Notice the pushing, prodding, and tweaking that goes on and on and on to make the Big Bang plausible!

Haha, to my mind this is more like squashed credibility
Come on! The Emperor has no clothes! :-)
Last edited by sketch1946 on Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:32 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Higgsy
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by Higgsy » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:05 pm

Hi Sketch
sketch1946 wrote:Hi Higgsy,
I skimmed over that post to see what you were saying....
I haven't read enough to say anything about the theory though... :-)
Higgsy wrote:Equation 34 looks like the well known Compton scattering expression except that it's missing the term (1-cos(theta)) where theta is the angle through which the photon is scattered. In his case the photon continues on the same path, so theta is zero and the change in wavelength would be zero.

In an appendix the author explains:
"Appendix B. Why It Cannot Be Compton Scatter That Causes the Redshifts
Some researches confuse NTL with the Compton Effect and this is definitely not the case."
Hmm, yes - you have to wonder about an author whose published and presumably proof-read papers contain such gaffes as the "plank constant", the "Starky effect" and "Compton Scatter". Anyway, leaving that aside, it's right that Compton scattering can't explain redshift as it would cause blurring of distant objects.
"In Compton scatter the photons are assumed to be absorbed and re-emitted instantaneously as there is no mechanism within Compton Scatter that the “free” electron can store the energy during any delay.
Hence, to conserve momentum, the photon goes off to one side whilst the electron goes off to the other. There is no possibility of a loss in energy in the forward direction and hence a redshift along the line of sight as it cannot recoil in this direction since absorption and re-emission take place instantaneously.
The light is scattered as it travels along and the image would blur. This is not seen in observations."

"In NTL the electrons are not free but interact loosely with the other charges in the plasma.
If an electron is displaced in the forwards direction, the region in front of it becomes overall slightly negative since it has gained an electron and the region behind it has become slightly positive as an electron has moved away. Restoring forces act on the electron and thus it performs SHM.
Any electron that can perform SHM can absorb and re-emit photons."
I'm sorry, but this is just so much nonsense. Having thought about it, Ashmore's effect really cannot happen. Electrons (and indeed ions) in a plasma can undergo oscillations (in the case of IGM plasma the frequenccy is about 300Hz and the Debye length is around 1,000m), but that does not mean that the electrons are not free. In a plasma, electrons not bound in an atom are free. And whether they are oscillating or not, free electrons cannot absorb a photon - that interaction can't happen because conservation of energy and conservation of momentum cannot simultaneosly be met in that process.
"However, since there is a delay, between absorption and re-emission the energy of the photon is transferred to vibrational energy of the electron with a tiny amount going to Kinetic energy of the recoiling electron."

"Whilst the vibrational energy is re-emitted as a new photon the KE has been lost to the photon and is
emitted as a secondary photon that forms the CMB..."
Yeah, but the absorption can't happen in the first place.I can always present the proof if anyone on the forum is interested.
Higgsy wrote:But most of all, I am puzzled, because the absorption of a photon by a free electron does not happen - such a process cannot satisfy both conservation of energy and the conservation of momentum at the same time. So I would say that his fundamental process is at best questionable.
I think he's talking about electrons that are part of atoms?
Bound electrons? No, there are few bound electrons in the IGM plasma (that's what plasma means) and he's talking about free electrons.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

Higgsy
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by Higgsy » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:16 pm

sketch1946 wrote:"First detected by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson in 1965, the CMB is one of the most conclusive pieces of evidence in favour of the Big Bang.
SNIP
Haha, to my mind this is more like squashed credibility
Come on! The Emperor has no clothes! :-)
As I said, I am not here to persuade you of anything. If you have decided from reading popular articles that the CMB doesn't exist, or means something else, then that's fine by me. Just be aware that you have several deep misunderstandings in this long post. It's too long for me to comment on, and I can't tell which are your words, or when you quoting some popular source; and when you do quote, you don't reference the source. So sorry, I'm here to ask questions and learn about EU/PC theory and answering this is just too much like hard work.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by sketch1946 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:47 pm

Hi Higgsy,
Higgsy wrote:free electrons cannot absorb a photon
Reading that paper by Lyndon Ashmore
suggests to me the author's English is not his first language,
but he is definitely talking about electrons within molecules

from page 16 of the pdf, link below, Appendix A:
---------------------------------------quoted-----------------------------------
"When light travels through a transparent medium it does so by being constantly absorbed and
re-emitted by the electrons in the atoms of that medium..."
A Relationship between Dispersion Measure and Redshift Derived in Terms of New Tired Light
Lyndon Ashmore
http://file.scirp.org/pdf/JHEPGC_2016082515515600.pdf
-----------------------------------end-quoted-----------------------------------
Ashmore then goes on talking about electrons, and the interaction with photons....

Below is a paper on the IGM, which talks about the physics of the IGM,
clearly talks about molecules of hydrogen, helium and metals in the IGM
so plasmas are not just free electrons, but can be ionised molecules

I separated them into single statements to make it easier to follow:
---------------------------------------quoted-----------------------------------IGM paper:
"This likely stems from the principal outstanding missing piece of physics, the reionization of the IGM.

"Not only must hydrogen be ionized, but helium as well. The ionization heats the gas through the photoelectric effect."

"Detailed radiative transfer computations are required to recover the temperatures, for which there is still limited success."

"The sources of the reionization and the epochs of reionization, both of hydrogen and helium, are still not
firmly established."

"The origin of the metal absorption systems in the diffuse IGM is still unknown,"

"although it is widely expected they were deposited by winds from galaxies, "

"...possibly driven by intense episodes of star formation."

"As such, the metal absorption lines in principle offer an important means of studying the history of cosmic star formation."

"Most fundamentally, the relation of the IGM to the galaxies that form from it is still mostly unknown..."
The Physics of the Intergalactic Medium
Avery Meiksin
https://arxiv.org/pdf/0711.3358.pdf
-----------------------------------end-quoted-----------------------------------IGM paper
sketch talking now...
end of that point, new topic about measurement problems and data photoshopping in Planck:

Below is a paper on the 2015 results of Planck, which talks about the problems of data,
such as 'more than two orders of magnitude' of 'improvement' in the data massage since 2013
this paper clearly talks about how the data is manipulated:

I separated them into single statements to make it easier to follow:

quoted snippets follow between the dotted lines:
---------------------------------------quoted-----------------------------------Planck paper:
The data show that there are no windows in the sky where primordial CMB B-mode polarization can be measured without subtraction of polarized dust emission.

Data from the entire mission are now used, including both temperature and polarization, and significant improvements have been made in the understanding of beams, pointing, calibration, and systematic errors.

As a result, the new products are less noisy, but even more importantly they are much better understood and the overall level of confidence is significantly increased.

The residual systematics in the Planck 2015 polarization maps have been dramatically reduced compared to 2013, by as much as two orders of magnitude in some cases.

Nevertheless, on angular scales greater than 10◦, systematic errors in the polarization maps between 100 and 217 GHz are still non-negligible compared to the expected cosmological signal.

It was not possible, for this data release, to fully characterize the large-scale residuals due to these systematic errors from the data or from simulations.

Therefore all results published by the Planck Collaboration in 2015 have used CMB polarization maps that have been high-pass filtered to remove the large angular scales.

The frequency dependence of the power spectra for polarized thermal dust emission is consistent with that found for the modified blackbody emission in Planck Collaboration Int. XXII (2015).

A systematic difference is discovered between the amplitudes of the Galactic B- and E-modes...

Users of the Planck CMB maps are warned that they are not useable for cosmological analysis at
<symbol for wavelength and inverted exclamation mark, I suspect a typo>30.
wavelength smaller than 3 mm ?
Planck 2015 results. I. Overview of products and scientific results
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1502.01582.pdf
-----------------------------------end-quoted-----------------------------------Planck paper

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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by comingfrom » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:59 pm

Came across this in my reading, thought it might be of interest to this topic
This only leaves us with c. Why are photons going c? Doesn't that break the conservation of energy
law? No, it doesn't, since energy is conserved in a system. A fundamental field isn't a system. To
conserve energy, we only have to have the same total speed in our field at time x as we have at time y.
We do not have to have zero speed. Again, the easy way to see this is to follow the previous logic. All
photons at speed zero would actually be harder to explain than all photons at speed x. The only way to
explain all photons at speed zero is to propose no motion and no collisions. Any motion in the field
will eventually translate through the entire field via collisions, so velocity is the default state. Statistics
tells us the same thing. There is only one way to have all photons at speed zero, and an infinite number
of ways to have them not at speed zero. Therefore, the probability of speed zero approaches zero and
the probability of speed x approaches 1. The actual speed is then determined by the density of the
photons and the initial relative motion.
Maxwell's Lines of Force part 2 by Miles Mathis.

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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by Zyxzevn » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:10 am

comingfrom wrote:Came across this in my reading, thought it might be of interest to this topic
This only leaves us with c. Why are photons going c? Doesn't that break the conservation of energy
law? No, it doesn't, since energy is conserved in a system. A fundamental field isn't a system. To
conserve energy, we only have to have the same total speed in our field at time x as we have at time y.
We do not have to have zero speed. Again, the easy way to see this is to follow the previous logic. All
photons at speed zero would actually be harder to explain than all photons at speed x. The only way to
explain all photons at speed zero is to propose no motion and no collisions. Any motion in the field
will eventually translate through the entire field via collisions, so velocity is the default state. Statistics
tells us the same thing. There is only one way to have all photons at speed zero, and an infinite number
of ways to have them not at speed zero. Therefore, the probability of speed zero approaches zero and
the probability of speed x approaches 1. The actual speed is then determined by the density of the
photons and the initial relative motion.
Maxwell's Lines of Force part 2 by Miles Mathis.
I find Miles poetic, but very inaccurate.

If you decrypt the quoted sentence, you can see that he introduces small wrong ideas, and expands
them into a bigger wrong idea.
"Doesn't that break the conservation of energy law?" - has nothing to do with it.
"fundamental field isn't a system" - meaningless.
"total speed" - no meaning, invented by himself.
"photons at speed zero" - do not exist, invented by himself.
".. zero speed is .. no motion.." - no motion= zero speed. Wow.
"photons" and "collisions" - no photons do not collide with photons at all.
"statistics tells us the same thing" - meaningless.
"one way to have photons at speed zero" - invented by himself.
"probability of speed zero approaches zero" - meaningless.
"probability of speed x approaches 1" - meaningless.
"actual speed is then" - false logical conclusion
"actual speed is determined by density of photons and initial motion" - invented by himself.
"Why are photons going c?" - he never answers the question.

But if we look through all the wrong statements,
he is actually claiming that light is the same as a gas.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by Higgsy » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:28 am

Zyxzevn wrote: I find Miles poetic, but very inaccurate.
This ^ ^
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina

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comingfrom
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Re: Albert Einstein and the speed of light

Unread post by comingfrom » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:02 pm

Thank you, 6 7.

Allow me to address each of your objections, if I can,
and see if you have convinced me by the end of it.
"Doesn't that break the conservation of energy law?" - has nothing to do with it.
Merely quoting a question some may ask, as a way to start his explanation.
"fundamental field isn't a system" - meaningless.
Because charge is everywhere it isn't a closed system. It is the fundamental field.
"total speed" - no meaning, invented by himself.
By total speed he merely means the summed velocity of all photons.
"photons at speed zero" - do not exist, invented by himself.
His conclusion also.
".. zero speed is .. no motion.." - no motion= zero speed. Wow.
"photons" and "collisions" - no photons do not collide with photons at all.
We don't know that for sure, but even so, we do know that photons collide with baryons.
"statistics tells us the same thing" - meaningless.
He does a statistical analysis for the sake of the physicists that prefer probabilities only, at the quantum level.
"one way to have photons at speed zero" - invented by himself.
Doesn't believe it himself, and Is giving the reason why it is an impossibility.
"probability of speed zero approaches zero" - meaningless.
Yet factual.
"probability of speed x approaches 1" - meaningless.
Yet it is commonly agreed, that x = c.
"actual speed is then" - false logical conclusion
No conclusion in that phrase yet.
"actual speed is determined by density of photons and initial motion" - invented by himself.
Yes, this is his proposal. This is his conclusion.
"Why are photons going c?" - he never answers the question.
He never does. He doesn't pretend to know first causes. He admits [elsewhere] he can't say why the velocity = c, and not some other speed.
But if we look through all the wrong statements,
he is actually claiming that light is the same as a gas.
No he doesn't. It is you who has now jumped to an illogical conclusion to make a false and insinuating statement. Mathis does give photons real physical properties, but it is nothing like a gas. Gases need the charge field to be gases. Baryons are recycling the photons, by MM's theories.

This was a logical argument why to presume the default state is that photons have a velocity.

Prior to this paragraph he had just explained why we should be presuming that photons have spin as a default, and this paragraph followed to show a velocity is also the default state. Maybe it needs to be read in context.

I didn't have a problem following his logic.
~Paul

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