Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.

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jacmac
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by jacmac » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:59 pm

Robert,
It is not so much that I disagree with what you are saying but, that I am advocating for the planets ALSO.
And I am thinking of their electrical involvement.
So a Maunder Minimum period with
current from the LISM significantly diminished.
would be a more "quiet sun" situation and a more QUIET SOLAR SYSTEM as indicated by the greatly diminished sun spot cycle.

If the electrical environment quiets down, so to speak, any electric interaction between sun and planets would/could do the same. So, the MM situation is not evidence for or against planet involvement in sunspots or sunspot cycles IMO.

Does anyone have an opinion of the "Earth facing quiet" phenomena that seems to be happening now, and may have happened early into the MM period ?
Jack

upriver
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by upriver » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:02 pm

Robertus Maximus wrote:
jacmac wrote:Why spots at all ? we have a quiet sun; why not a steady quiet solar wind(s) ?
The Maunder Minimum and the Juergens Circuit

In this thread I have offered the idea that current arriving from the Local Interstellar Medium (LISM) manifests within the heliosphere as the Corona, Slow Solar Wind (SSW) and Heliospheric Current and Plasma Sheets (HCS/ HPS). The current is cyclical- at solar minimum the current broadly arrives aligned with the Sun’s equatorial regions. Closer to the solar surface- and as electric current arrives perpendicular to a surface- it spreads out forming the distinctive lenticular shaped corona we see at solar minimum.

At solar maximum current now arrives away from the solar equatorial regions- due to an alignment I have previously discussed. As it does so the previously existing structured flow becomes highly filamentary with some twisted filaments appearing as sunspot pairs on the photosphere.
The solar wind comes from a different location than the Photosphere which is what we see when we say a quiet sun.
The sun is in Glow mode just touching on Abnormal Glow discharge when there is a current draw like the sun spots.

My model accounts for this activity by having a solid surface under the photosphere similar to an Electrical Cathode.

celeste
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by celeste » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:46 pm

Robertus, just now stumbled on to your post here http://forum.sis-group.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55 That really helped. Ah, if only that had been in my toolbox from the beginning.

upriver
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by upriver » Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:49 am

I found this graphic showing where Voyager is as of Mar. 2016.
I would expect the interstellar plasma to be mostly less dense than the sun. Maybe not in a filament.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... sition.jpg

Or not in a Herbig Haro object. This is my favorite.
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archiv ... 3/image/a/
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archiv ... /13/image/

jacmac
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by jacmac » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:45 am

Robertus,

I have been trying to visualize the solar system relative to the helical Birkeland current you have described.
The solar system moving relative to a spiral current would not change angles as it moves, regardless of its position within the filament. IMO
Then, I tried to see an angle change with a double helix filament and still no angle change, as both helicies are always parrallel.
However, what does change is the angle of the connecting lines when looking at a diagram of a DNA double helix. Indeed, the presence of the connecting lines is what makes the helix DOUBLE and not one large continuous spiral.

What these lines might represent (if there is something there) in the plasma of a double helix filament(s) supplying the solar system with electrical energy is open to conjecture.
Perhaps some smaller scale cross currents between the larger filaments , or a magnetic field that shifts direction as the solar system moves relative to the filament(s), or some of both ?

Also,
In your two dimension diagram the N pole of the sun points toward the galaxy center which works to represent your ideas but, does it point there, or where ?
And do you think the solar system moves through the large filament, or does the filament catch up, so to speak, to the sun and sweep over the solar system ?

Jack

Robertus Maximus
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by Robertus Maximus » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:03 am

celeste wrote:Robertus, just now stumbled on to your post here http://forum.sis-group.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55 That really helped. Ah, if only that had been in my toolbox from the beginning.
The main post I have slightly reworked with updated observations by IBEX and Cassini and posted on this forum, hence 2.0. But all the ‘add-on’ posts on the SIS thread: ‘XX Triangulum’, ‘W1906+40’ and ‘Rotating Interstellar Magnetic Field revealed by Voyager 1’ are all still relevant.

Perhaps by now you have seen my other posts which are unique to the SIS forum? They occupied a fair amount of my spare time over the past year hence the delay in getting 2.0 posted.

Robertus Maximus
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by Robertus Maximus » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:29 am

jacmac wrote:Robertus,

I have been trying to visualize the solar system relative to the helical Birkeland current you have described.
The solar system moving relative to a spiral current would not change angles as it moves, regardless of its position within the filament. IMO
Then, I tried to see an angle change with a double helix filament and still no angle change, as both helicies are always parrallel.
However, what does change is the angle of the connecting lines when looking at a diagram of a DNA double helix. Indeed, the presence of the connecting lines is what makes the helix DOUBLE and not one large continuous spiral.

What these lines might represent (if there is something there) in the plasma of a double helix filament(s) supplying the solar system with electrical energy is open to conjecture.
Perhaps some smaller scale cross currents between the larger filaments , or a magnetic field that shifts direction as the solar system moves relative to the filament(s), or some of both ?

Also,
In your two dimension diagram the N pole of the sun points toward the galaxy center which works to represent your ideas but, does it point there, or where ?
And do you think the solar system moves through the large filament, or does the filament catch up, so to speak, to the sun and sweep over the solar system ?

Jack
Jack,

I admit my illustrations are more like technical plans and perhaps have not translated into three dimensional visualisations as I had hoped. A better approach would be to view Dr. Michael Clarage’s ‘Space News’ presentations: https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2016/0 ... pace-news/ and https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2016/0 ... pace-news/

The graphics used to demonstrate the solar system’s motion through the galaxy are far superior to mine.

My drawing of the alignment of the Sun’s rotational axis with respect to that of the galaxy is intended to highlight the angular differences it was not meant to carry anymore significance than that and I apologise for not making that clear enough which may have led to confusion over what I am suggesting. The Sun’s rotational axis does not point towards the galactic centre rather it points, approximately in the direction of motion of the Sun, hopefully the graphics used in Dr. Clarage’s presentations have clarified this.

With the graphics used in Dr. Clarage’s presentation in mind let us picture the helical path taken by the planets is not a temporal path but a spatial one, one occupied by helical Birkeland currents extending ahead of the Sun’s path through galactic space- the Sun can now be visualised as moving through a giant slinky.

With this highly simplified picture in mind let us imagine that a point of contact occurs between the helical Birkeland current and the outermost regions of the heliosphere. Relative motion between the heliosphere and helical Birkeland current result in the angle of contact changing cyclically over 22 years much in the way you identified the angle of the connecting lines in the DNA molecule. Remember that current from the LISM is always flowing toward the Sun but it is the angle that the current arrives at on reaching the Sun that changes- this is due to the misalignment of the Sun’s and galaxy’s rotational axis.

It certainly appears at times that the heliosphere takes on an hourglass shape plus the HCS/ HPS can fragment into two cylinders- twisted Birkeland currents- so if we picture the Sun itself being slightly off-centre any large LISM Birkeland current the current may bifurcate at certain times during the cycle.

Current would appear to sweep around the heliosphere but keep in mind the current is always there it does not have to race around the edge of the heliosphere at superluminal velocities it is just the relative motion, angle and point of contact between the LISM and heliosphere which is of concern to us.

Hope this helps.
Robert

celeste
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by celeste » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:25 pm

Robertus Maximus wrote:
celeste wrote:Robertus, just now stumbled on to your post here http://forum.sis-group.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55 That really helped. Ah, if only that had been in my toolbox from the beginning.
The main post I have slightly reworked with updated observations by IBEX and Cassini and posted on this forum, hence 2.0. But all the ‘add-on’ posts on the SIS thread: ‘XX Triangulum’, ‘W1906+40’ and ‘Rotating Interstellar Magnetic Field revealed by Voyager 1’ are all still relevant.

Perhaps by now you have seen my other posts which are unique to the SIS forum? They occupied a fair amount of my spare time over the past year hence the delay in getting 2.0 posted.
I will be reading all those within a week or two.

celeste
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by celeste » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:03 pm

Robertus Maximus wrote:
jacmac wrote:Robertus,

I have been trying to visualize the solar system relative to the helical Birkeland current you have described.
The solar system moving relative to a spiral current would not change angles as it moves, regardless of its position within the filament. IMO
Then, I tried to see an angle change with a double helix filament and still no angle change, as both helicies are always parrallel.
However, what does change is the angle of the connecting lines when looking at a diagram of a DNA double helix. Indeed, the presence of the connecting lines is what makes the helix DOUBLE and not one large continuous spiral.

What these lines might represent (if there is something there) in the plasma of a double helix filament(s) supplying the solar system with electrical energy is open to conjecture.
Perhaps some smaller scale cross currents between the larger filaments , or a magnetic field that shifts direction as the solar system moves relative to the filament(s), or some of both ?

Also,
In your two dimension diagram the N pole of the sun points toward the galaxy center which works to represent your ideas but, does it point there, or where ?
And do you think the solar system moves through the large filament, or does the filament catch up, so to speak, to the sun and sweep over the solar system ?

Jack
Jack,

I admit my illustrations are more like technical plans and perhaps have not translated into three dimensional visualisations as I had hoped. A better approach would be to view Dr. Michael Clarage’s ‘Space News’ presentations: https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2016/0 ... pace-news/ and https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2016/0 ... pace-news/

The graphics used to demonstrate the solar system’s motion through the galaxy are far superior to mine.

My drawing of the alignment of the Sun’s rotational axis with respect to that of the galaxy is intended to highlight the angular differences it was not meant to carry anymore significance than that and I apologise for not making that clear enough which may have led to confusion over what I am suggesting. The Sun’s rotational axis does not point towards the galactic centre rather it points, approximately in the direction of motion of the Sun, hopefully the graphics used in Dr. Clarage’s presentations have clarified this.

With the graphics used in Dr. Clarage’s presentation in mind let us picture the helical path taken by the planets is not a temporal path but a spatial one, one occupied by helical Birkeland currents extending ahead of the Sun’s path through galactic space- the Sun can now be visualised as moving through a giant slinky.

With this highly simplified picture in mind let us imagine that a point of contact occurs between the helical Birkeland current and the outermost regions of the heliosphere. Relative motion between the heliosphere and helical Birkeland current result in the angle of contact changing cyclically over 22 years much in the way you identified the angle of the connecting lines in the DNA molecule. Remember that current from the LISM is always flowing toward the Sun but it is the angle that the current arrives at on reaching the Sun that changes- this is due to the misalignment of the Sun’s and galaxy’s rotational axis.

It certainly appears at times that the heliosphere takes on an hourglass shape plus the HCS/ HPS can fragment into two cylinders- twisted Birkeland currents- so if we picture the Sun itself being slightly off-centre any large LISM Birkeland current the current may bifurcate at certain times during the cycle.

Current would appear to sweep around the heliosphere but keep in mind the current is always there it does not have to race around the edge of the heliosphere at superluminal velocities it is just the relative motion, angle and point of contact between the LISM and heliosphere which is of concern to us.

Hope this helps.
Robert
Robert and Jack, I'd like you to forget about the galaxy, or the galactic reference frame for that matter. Remember, the Solar system resides within the large scale filament here http://www.solstation.com/x-objects/lchimney.jpg
and then within the smaller scale filaments here https://bluexdragon.files.wordpress.com ... lfluff.jpg or here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... arrows.jpg
So, what sits outside the heliosphere, is not the galactic magnetic field, or the galactic electric field, etc. While Michael Clarage"s images are right (so was DjSadhu's video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jHsq36_NTU )
,they only show the small scale filament containing the sun and planets. What Michael Clarage and DjSadhu are ignoring, is that this small scale filament fits within those other filaments. In other words, in DjSadhu's video, you are lead to believe that the filament bob's up and down as it spirals around the galaxy. It does not. It spirals along the local cloud, and around the Chimney axis. The main point for this thread, is that outside the heliosphere, is not the galactic magnetic field, but merely the magnetic field of the local interstellar cloud, and the local chimney. In other words, we are levels removed from the galactic field.

Robertus Maximus
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by Robertus Maximus » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:38 am

celeste wrote:The main point for this thread, is that outside the heliosphere, is not the galactic magnetic field, but merely the magnetic field of the local interstellar cloud, and the local chimney. In other words, we are levels removed from the galactic field.
Agreed. My illustrations were only intended to highlight relationships between rotational axes etc. Of course we are really dealing with currents very local to the LISM and LIMF.

jacmac
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by jacmac » Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:26 pm

Robertus,
Thank you for the clarifications. I have watched the Dr. Clarage videos.
Using the suggestion from Celeste about
the magnetic field of the local interstellar cloud, and the local chimney,
I am still trying to imagine the geometry, so to speak, of the interaction of the solar system and it's immediate exterior environment. (this is also true for my own recent DNA type suggestion)

I cannot see where the angle of interaction changes with
the Sun can now be visualised as moving through a giant slinky.
A two dimension picture of a three dimension "Slinky" gives the impression of a point on a line moving left to right followed by the continuation moving right to left as it rotates underneath. But nothing really changes direction, the spiraling current(s) are always spiraling the same way.

Where do the angles change between the solar equatorial plane and the filament within which it is moving.
The "slinky" model seems to suggest an angle shift, but I am having a hard time visualizing it.

Looking up from below the spiral gives the same picture as looking down from above. So, no angle change.
I like the idea but the geometry does not work for me.

Help,
Jack

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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by upriver » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:35 pm

I found this image of the sun moving through the local chimney. I was looking for the filament connecting the sun to the whatever. If there was a filament connecting from the solar heliosphere what would it connect to? The wall??
http://elpub.wdcb.ru/journals/ijga/gi04 ... 70-o04.gif

http://elpub.wdcb.ru/journals/ijga/gi04 ... #fig04hook

Robertus Maximus
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by Robertus Maximus » Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:59 am

jacmac wrote:Where do the angles change between the solar equatorial plane and the filament within which it is moving.
The "slinky" model seems to suggest an angle shift, but I am having a hard time visualizing it.

Looking up from below the spiral gives the same picture as looking down from above. So, no angle change.
I like the idea but the geometry does not work for me.
Ok, how about a thought experiment?

Picture a metal spiral staircase consisting of 22 individual steps. The handrail and balusters of the staircase represent a helical Birkeland current coiled around a central column; each individual wedge shaped step ‘points’ to the central column think of this as representing the direction of current flow to a central object, we’re not concerned at the moment what that object is.

Now, as we ascend the staircase we notice that every step ‘points’ in the same direction but by step 11 we are 180 degrees from where we started, every step taken points to a different point on the central column, by step 22 we notice that we have completed one full ‘cycle’.

If we could replace the central column with a small sphere- that we could carry- tilted some 30 degrees to the vertical column and plot on the surface of the sphere the position of the ‘steps’ as we ascend the staircase with the sphere taking the path of the former column, we would find at certain times, as the steps ‘rotate’ around the sphere (eventually covering 360 degrees), that the steps would align with the ‘equatorial’ areas of the sphere while at other times they would be align with higher latitude areas- the steps would plot an inclined circular path on the surface of the sphere. Think of an Earth orbiting spacecraft or satellite on an inclined circular orbit around Earth- on a map of Earth in mission control this orbit is represented not by a straight line but a sine wave. Similarly, the sine wave here is a Birkeland current which plots out an inclined ‘orbit’ about the sphere.

What do we find in the case of the Sun? If we look at the data in this graphic- (http://sci.esa.int/science-e-media/img/ ... d_orig.jpg) sunspot number, solar wind filamentation, coronal shape, current sheet tilt, I’m suggesting that the current sheet tilt is a ‘plot’ of the Birkeland current angle relative to the Sun’s rotational axis. When the sheet is highly tilted we see more filamentation of the solar wind and elevated levels of sunspots (i.e. solar maximum) - current from the LISM is always flowing toward the Sun it is a geometrical relationship that results in the solar cycle.

Hope this helps?

Robertus Maximus
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by Robertus Maximus » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:13 pm

upriver wrote:I found this image of the sun moving through the local chimney. I was looking for the filament connecting the sun to the whatever. If there was a filament connecting from the solar heliosphere what would it connect to? The wall??
http://elpub.wdcb.ru/journals/ijga/gi04 ... 70-o04.gif

http://elpub.wdcb.ru/journals/ijga/gi04 ... #fig04hook
Upriver, I have briefly looked through this paper, (http://elpub.wdcb.ru/journals/ijga/gi04 ... 000070.pdf) this could be the icing on the cake- at least as far as I’m concerned.

The Russian researchers have differentiated between two ‘circuits’ labelled ‘T’ and ‘P’ relating to the solar magnetic field this is what I equate with a pseudo Alfven circuit and a Juergens circuit. Of course their views are still framed in terms of the thermonuclear model.

They have realised that the two circuits have independent properties: ‘Accordingly at the photosphere one can see the phenomena of the T branch of solar activity (sunspots with the ordered toroidal magnetic fields and other objects (active regions) linked to them) and those of the P branch (much weaker but large-scale poloidal magnetic fields at the polar latitudes and between the active regions, also polar faculae, etc).

Not only that, but the global current sheet rotates! Now, where have I heard that before?: ‘It should be noted that such hypothesis implies some specific scenarios for rather poorly studied processes in the heliosphere: the attenuation but not just rotation of the magnetic hemispheres with the global current sheet as the reversal of the high-latitude solar magnetic field proceeds; the formation of the regular and fluctuating heliospheric magnetic field also by the sunspot-like activity on the Sun and not only by the large-scale solar magnetic fields, etc.’

It is still very early days, I have just got my hands on papers from the Ulysses mission but as soon as I am able to I’ll turn my attention to the Russian research.

Very interesting links. Thanks.

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Solar
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread post by Solar » Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:24 am

upriver wrote:I found this image of the sun moving through the local chimney. I was looking for the filament connecting the sun to the whatever. If there was a filament connecting from the solar heliosphere what would it connect to? The wall??
http://elpub.wdcb.ru/journals/ijga/gi04 ... 70-o04.gif

http://elpub.wdcb.ru/journals/ijga/gi04 ... #fig04hook
Perhaps you're confusing the Cosmic version of Intracloud Lightning with the Cosmic version of Clound-to-Ground lightning. On Earth, Intracloud lightning is by far actually the most common form of lighting. Not to be confused with cloud-to-ground lightning.
In this case,the LIC cloud column density towards the star Sirius led to the conclusion that the Sun has entered the LIC cloud within the last 2,000-8,000 years, and that the Sun is about ~0.1 pc from the surface in the downwind direction (Frisch, 1994) When the upper limits of the Ca II column density towards Aql (Vallergra et al., 1993) and the LIC Fe II column density towards Cen (Lallement et al., 1995) are included, then we are forced to conclude that the Sun is located in a filament of difuse interstellar gas with a total thickness <0.7 pc. This filament is illustrated in Figure 4. - LISM STRUCTURE-FRAGMENTED SUPERBUBBLE SHELL?
The text for reference you posted is telling you where they think filament is located. The filaments appear to be in the "wall" of The Loop I Superbubble in the first cartoon graphic of your link. There it lay via P. Firsch above - with a question mark - as to whether the filament that the Sun “APPEARS” to be “embedded” within is, or isn’t, a part of the Loop I Superbubble Shell:

Also:
During the past few million years, wispy filaments of interstellar gas have drifted into the Local Bubble. Our solar system is immersed in one of those filaments--the "local fluff," a relatively cool (7000 K) cloud containing 0.1 atoms per cubic centimeter. By galactic standards, the local fluff is not very substantial. It has little effect on Earth because the solar wind and the Sun's magnetic field are able to hold the wispy cloud at bay. – NASA: Near Earth supernovas
And there it lay again, officially. Make no mistake much effort has been put into trying to assess the nature of our stellar orientation with respect to all of these filaments. One of the interesting things to note and give consideration to is portrayed in this cartoon (here). Quite a lot of stellar activity occurs in the “walls”, “shells” and “fronts” – not just inside of the bubbles.
Several types of data suggest that the Sun is embedded in the rim of the evolved Loop I superbubble. – Connecting the interstellar magnetic field at the heliosphere to the Loop I superbubble
You might be interested in Figure 2 of that paper and it's caption: "Green bars show the filament stars that are located toward the inner ridge of the nearby portion of Loop I." Some of filaments and the stars within them can generally be discerned. To my knowledge, no one has done any work to try and specifically associate them though.

One of the problems with trying to assess one’s location amidst so much filamentation stems from a lack of consideration for the established fact that the “expanding shells” of the Sco-Cen complex, the Local Bubble, our “chimney”, the Loop I Supershell etc are interacting with one another. They are electrically interacting with one another at the edges i.e. “rubbing”, “skimming” as it were. From same, it appears that there have been star forming epochs already.

In likewise fashion is the idea that at larger scales entire strings of galaxies and their stars have the greatest density of cosmic matter occurring at the interacting “walls” of so called “voids”:
One of the helpful features of void regions is that their boundaries are very distinct and defined, with a cosmic mean density that starts at 10% in the body and quickly rises to 20% at the edge and then to 100% in the walls directly outside the edges. The remaining walls and overlapping void regions are then gridded into respectively distinct and intertwining zones of filaments, clusters, and near-empty voids.
(...)
On a more local scale, galaxies that reside in voids have differing morphological and spectral properties than those that are located in the walls. One feature that has been found is that voids have been shown to contain a significantly higher fraction of starburst galaxies of young, hot stars when compared to samples of galaxies in walls. (Wiki: VoidFinder Algorithm).
Obviously, we can't see ourselves like the images assessed in "Characterizing interstellar filaments with Herschel in IC 5146" and nowhere therein is the question being asked "What does it connect to?" The cosmic version of Intracloud Lightning are electric discharges between Cosmic "clouds".
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

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