Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby Robertus Maximus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:40 am

Did Ulysses confirm Don Scott’s Birkeland Current Model?

The origins of this thread lie with Bob Johnson’s EU2013 presentation. More recently Bob Johnson raised fresh criticisms of the Electric Sun model, in particular the works of Charles Bruce. Interestingly, having concluded that the Electric Sun model is dead, Bob Johnson left himself some wiggle-room by noting that the orbit of the Ulysses spacecraft never reached above 80 degrees of heliolatitude.

Ulysses did, however, make some unexpected discoveries whilst travelling at high heliolatitudes. During the first high-latitude scan at solar minimum in the mid nineteen-nineties Ulysses was immersed in the open magnetic field of the dominant Fast Solar Wind (FSW).

“Observations by Ulysses have shown, during the past solar minimum, that the large scale heliospheric medium at high heliolatitudes is dominated by the relatively uniform speed, fast solar wind streams from the polar coronal holes. The fast solar wind carries magnetic field lines with polarities corresponding, on average, to the dominant photospheric polarities in the two solar hemispheres.” (1)

At solar minimum at solar latitudes southward of 30 degrees and northward of 25 degrees Ulysses detected no magnetic sector structure. However, at heliolatitudes above 60 degrees Ulysses found: “…a surprisingly large number of data points at high latitudes which showed the opposite magnetic polarity to the polarity of the coronal hole in which the solar wind originated.” (1)

It was concluded that the polarity reversals were due to “large scale folded structures” but “oppositely directed flux tubes which originate in the corona” were also considered.

With Don Scott’s concentric Birkeland Current model in mind (2) - is it possible that mission scientists simply did not consider ‘large scale oppositely directed concentric flux tubes’?

A slightly modified and highly simplified picture of the Electric Sun model at solar minimum would look like this:
electric sun minimum.gif
Solar Minimum

We see that at solar minimum concentric current cylinders arrive approximately aligned with the Sun’s rotational axis- at high heliographic latitudes.

At solar maximum our simplified picture would look like this:
electric sun maximum.gif
Solar Maximum

We see that at solar maximum concentric current cylinders now arrive in a somewhat filamentary manner at low heliographic latitudes and preferred longitudes- now taking the form of current-pairs i.e. sunspots.

The solar cycle is a global heliospheric phenomenon

The premise of this thread is that the currents powering the solar discharge manifest as the solar cycle and account for the global properties of the heliosphere.

The authors of this paper make some remarkable observations of the solar magnetic field reversal of cycle 22. (3)

“…coronal holes showed some unexpected evolutionary patterns in relation to the polarity reversals, and these patterns appear to be coordinated with changes in the global patterns of coronal holes and the heliospheric current sheet, suggesting that the polar reversal originates from global processes rather than from local magnetic flux annihilation.”

“The particular phases of the polar field reversal that we have outlined in this paper are striking in the fact that the evolution of the polar coronal hole seems to be part of a more fundamental process; the polar coronal hole does not simply disappear in situ, prior to the reversal, but appears to move out of the polar regions. Correspondingly, a coronal hole does not just appear at the pole after the polar field has reversed, but migrates into the polar regions from midlatitudes. Another feature of the patterns formed by the global distribution of coronal holes is the apparent 180 degrees longitude separation of the holes that are part of the reversal process.”

Over the solar cycle coronal hole migration follows the ‘active longitude’ pattern (I have previously covered active longitudes, e.g. (4)).

Furthermore, it is increasingly being recognised that many of the Sun’s attributes are far from ‘fixed’:
“Increasing evidence suggests that the rotation rate of solar surface changes from cycle to cycle, even within one cycle. The rotation rate in the northern hemisphere was found to vary differently with the southern hemisphere showing N-S asymmetry.” (5)

Is the Electric Sun model dead?

Bob Johnson was to correct to point out that some in mainstream astrophysics are contemplating the role of electricity, just consider the following: “Most of the time the Sun appears as a quiet star to the naked-eye, but it is far more active when observed through telescopes, especially through the modern space-borne instruments with high temporal and spatial resolution. Even the quiet Sun appears very active in the observations of the newest space solar telescope -Solar Dynamics Observatory (SDO). Small scale tornadoes or cyclones are found to occur all over the quiet Sun with rotating magnetic fields [Zhang and Liu, 2011]. Later phases of cyclones are observed to be associated with microflares. A huge tornado can be observed before a coronal mass ejection (CME).” (5)

Tornadoes and cyclones on the Sun? This language could be straight from a TPOD post!

The problem faced by mainstream astrophysical models of the Sun’s activity is that new discoveries increase demands on the already complex ‘internal dynamo and convection’ concept.

I believe that the picture of the Sun that presents itself is one in which the Sun is a focus of an interstellar discharge. The cyclical properties of the Sun are not due to an internal dynamo but are, in fact, the cyclical properties of the aforementioned discharge. Moreover, these properties encompass the entire heliosphere.

Just as we have seen Don Scott’s Birkeland Current model applied to the planets is it possible that the Ulysses spacecraft had presciently hinted at the model’s applicability at the Sun itself?

References:

1. Balogh. A. et al. 1999. Heliospheric magnetic field inversions at high heliographic latitudes. Geophysical Research Letters, Vol. 26 No. 6 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248813126_Heliospheric_magnetic_field_polarity_inversions_at_high_heliographic_latitudes)

2. Scott. D. E. 2015. Birkeland Currents: A Force-Free field Aligned Model. Progress in Physics, Vol. 11 No. 2 (http://www.ptep-online.com/2015/PP-41-13.PDF)

3. Fox. P. et al. 1997. Coronal holes and the Polar Field Reversals. Solar Physics, Vol. 177, 1998 (http://solwww.oma.be/users/evarob/Literature/Papers/Solar%20Physics/1998%20Fox%20Coronal%20holes%20and%20the%20polar%20field%20reversals.pdf)

4. Berdyugina. S. V. 2007. Preferred longitudes in solar and stellar activity. Societa Astronomica Italiana, Vol. 78. 242 (http://sait.oat.ts.astro.it/MSAIt780207/PDF/2007MmSAI..78..242V.pdf)

5. Zhang. L. 2012. Solar Active Longitudes and their Rotation. University of Oulu Report Series in Physical Sciences, No. 78 (http://jultika.oulu.fi/files/isbn9789526200262.pdf)
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:58 am

The problem faced by mainstream astrophysical models of the Sun’s activity is that new discoveries increase demands on the already complex ‘internal dynamo and convection’ concept.


FYI, that increased demand comes on the heels of the revelation by SDO that their convection claims were off by two whole orders of magnitude.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/07/09/ ... projected/

They don't actually have a viable explanation for the source of those powerful magnetic fields in the solar atmosphere. Their "explanation" for those magnetic fields was directly related to the presumed/assumed speed of convection, and that's been shown to be ridiculously slower than their model predicted. They won't even talk about that problem today. It's another one of their numerous failed predictions that they simply ignore and try to sweep under the rug.

Kristian Birkeland could have done a better job explaining solar satellite imagery 100 years ago, than all the living astronomers in 2017. How sad is that?
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby Solar » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:19 am

Robertus Maximus wrote:The problem faced by mainstream astrophysical models of the Sun’s activity is that new discoveries increase demands on the already complex ‘internal dynamo and convection’ concept.

I believe that the picture of the Sun that presents itself is one in which the Sun is a focus of an interstellar discharge. The cyclical properties of the Sun are not due to an internal dynamo but are, in fact, the cyclical properties of the aforementioned discharge. Moreover, these properties encompass the entire heliosphere.

Just as we have seen Don Scott’s Birkeland Current model applied to the planets is it possible that the Ulysses spacecraft had presciently hinted at the model’s applicability at the Sun itself?


Sharing some thoughts. Generally speaking, as scaled to the planets, yes. This was mentioned in this thread:

Image

This is the earlier reason for positing "coronal holes" as "stellar aurora". The planetary versions are more stable. This stability is afforded by the dynamic nature of the Sun modulating the external environment. As such, the Sun's version can move around. The label "Energetic Particles" is denoted by two arrows symbolizing bidirectional currents. On Earth, along with the inflow of charges, these outflows are know as "Black Aurora".

With the Sun one has descriptions of energetic particles emission and the detection of "structures" or "microstreams":

It was only the extended time periods Ulysses spent in the polar streams that led to the detection of some structure, the microstreams. From remote observations of the Sun it is clear that the high latitude corona is quite unstructured. The most remarkable features are the polar plumes, which are well detectable because of their higher density and brightness. Also, they are characterized by a difference in composition relative to the coronal hole plasma. - Composition variations in fast solar wind streams


The "microstreams" are sometimes referred to as "Polar Plumes".

At their base are the filamentary "Polar Jets" which are the footprints of the fast solar wind discharge and are analogous to the Earth's "Black Aurora" insofar as their function. The question then becomes where is the inflow to the Sun? It is established the heliosphere modulates the Influx of Cosmic Rays. CRs are not prevented from entering the heliosphere; they are modulated as they enter. What was found?:

In one example of this, Fujiki and collaborators show that there’s a distinct correlation between polar coronal-hole area and observed galactic cosmic rays. Cosmic rays from within our galaxy have long been known to exhibit a 22-year periodicity. Fujiki and collaborators show that the periodicity of the galactic cosmic-ray activity tracks that of the polar coronal-hole area, with a ~1-year lag time — which is equivalent to the propagation time of the solar wind to the termination shock.

Polar coronal holes are therefore a useful observable indicator of the dipole component of the solar magnetic field, which modulates the incoming cosmic rays entering our solar system. This coronal hole database will be a useful tool for understanding the source of solar wind and the many ways the wind influences the Earth and our solar system. - Monitoring Holes in the Sun’s Corona


Important in this relationship is the "AREA" of influence. On Earth what is the AREA influenced by Cosmic Rays called? They are called "Extensive Air Showers" of secondary particles, including electrons. The graphic is slightly misleading. Look instead at the AREA covered by extensive air showers over the mountain range. The Sun does likewise in relation to its environment and this is noted in the study.

All of those factors are relevant features to anyone's [Electric] Current model however no model answers all the questions. Note that Cosmic Ray induced extensive air showers can also create energetic electrons right in the atmosphere above one's head. As Johnson conveyed; it depends on how a model gets "prioritized'. If its just electrons that one is concerned with these do not all have to come screaming in from outside the heliosphere. Cosmic Ray interaction can create some of them on the spot in atmospheres via ionization. Its sort of like assuming that ions are emitted from the Sun just because they are detected flying past probes when there *might be* some runaway process creating them between here and there.

Obviously there will be differences but yes; plasma tends to scaling.
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby Solar » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:29 am

To further, look at this gem:

The interactions of high-energy cosmic-ray nuclei with matter have been studied in a variety of settings. In our own atmosphere, these interactions produce cascades which include, or in turn produce, detectable fluxes of electrons, positrons, muons, gamma rays, Cherenkov light, neutrons and other nuclear fragments, and neutrinos. Interactions with interstellar gas are though to produce the observed Galactic flux of y-rays (Mayer-Hasselwander et al. 1982; Fichtel & Kniffen 1984; Fichtel et al. 1977) with energies above ~500 MeV, anti-protons (Stephens & Golden 1987), and positrons (Protheroe 1982). In this paper we explore another place where interactions between cosmic-ray nuclei and gas may produce observable signals: the Sun. - Signatures of cosmic-ray interactions on the solar surface: Seckel, D., Stanev, T., & Gaisser, K. T. 1991


Clearly, the basic idea of CRs directly interacting with the 'surface' of the Sun has already been put forth. This infers that the Sun will also have areas undergoing "extensive showers" of secondary charges. Those areas are referred to "coronal holes". Like Earth, a celestial body whose magnetic field has also "flipped" on more than one occasion, the induced secondary charges covering an area are extensive. Hypothetically, by way of ionization, electrons are included as a byproduct of these Solar Cosmic Ray cascades right at, or just before, the solar body in one or more of the Sun's 'atmosphere(s). A subsequent paper phrases the dynamic a bit differently saying "high-energy cosmic rays (~TeV and above) are absorbed in the Sun's photosphere":

The magnetic field of the Solar corona is difficult to measure directly. However, indirect observations of the solar corona are possible using the deficit in flux of cosmic rays coming from the direction of the Sun. Low-energy cosmic rays (~GeV) are deflected by the inner magnetic field of the Sun and the interplanetary magnetic field frozen into the solar wind. In contrast, high-energy cosmic rays (~TeV and above) are absorbed in the Sun's photosphere producing a shadow in the Sun's nominal position viewed from Earth. Several ground-based instruments have observed the effects of the heliospheric magnetic field on the size of the sun shadow and its position. The High-Altitude Water Cherenkov Observatory (HAWC) is an air shower array located in the central region of Mexico that observes TeV cosmic rays at a rate of about 15 kHz. in this work, we present preliminary images of the sun shadow from data collected by HAWC during 2013 and 2014 for different energy ranges. - The Galactic cosmic-ray Sun shadow observed by HAWC: O. Enriquez, A. Lara, for the HAWC Collaboration


Keeping this in mind now consider, as Johnson and others have mentioned before, that - other than Co-rotating Interaction Regions (CIR's) which can induce sunward directed flows of electrons - there has thus far been no other detection of sunward bound electrons, not even a "drift". The electrons that have been detected are going in the opposite direction away from the Sun.

The "cascade" dynamic could infer that [Electric] Current models don't need a substantial electron density coming from a source to flow (or seap) through the heliosphere towards the Sun to do work. The reason is because some of the electrons are produced right on the spot by Cosmic Rays interacting with the atmosphere(s) of a celestial body. In this case: the Sun.

Lastly, Cosmic Rays themselves have a larger range of products; they're not just Cosmic Ray electrons involved in the dynamic. If a, [Electric] Current model is prioritized using just electrons, while neglecting the interactions of other charges involved, it will probably fall short of the energy needed to account for its claims.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby Solar » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:23 am

comingfrom wrote:To me, is seems obvious there must be a good inflow of charge into a particular region of the Sun, for the arcs to begin forming.
Why else would that region be discharging into nearby regions?
And if the inflow is great enough, and the arcs become so great, they can eject mass from the Sun.
That's the point when a double layer exploded.

I'm no expert, but I model on observation.
To me, a region on the Sun becoming overcharged must be receiving charge, even if we cannot see it.
And I often see wisps of plasma being drawn down from the corona in the videos.
Often coming in at 45 degrees into the base of where the arcs are rising up.
Surely there must be inflowing charge that carry those plasmoids in.

I think all the cries of "no evidence" come from the satellite data, virtually all of which is taken in the solar wind.
And I think, naturally, we should not expect to find inflows in the Sun's main outflow.

I also think there are "static" regions (layers) in the circuit.
The inflowing charge is captured by the corona first, and the corona is layer that maintains a high charge level.
But any region of static charge cannot continue to to receive charge indefinitely, and discharges to nearby regions (or to the next layer).
What I'm saying is, there might not be continuous filaments directly liking the Sun to the galactic core or nearby stars, but the heliosphere does the first collection of charge from over vast region of space, and absorbing many filaments or currents.
The heliospheric boundary discharges excess charge which it cannot contain, which is then captured by the corona,
which discharges to the photosphere, which discharges the Solar wind.

The Earths magnetoshere is it's charge collector,
pulling in charge and matter from the Solar wind and capturing it in the ionosphere.
The ionosphere discharges into the lower atmospheric layers, causing storm clouds to arise,
and which eventually discharge to the surface of Earth as rain and lightning.

My model, made up from bits borrowed from a lot of other models. ;)
Paul


Agreed. I've also qualitatively expressed the same perspective a bit differently:

Charged specie from all of these various ‘inputs’ have been discovered within the heliosheath and as such they form a unique electric potential gradient as a result of the Sun modulating/regulating these ‘external inputs’ as a collective; through the porous heliosheath.

Paschen’s Law, from the general point of view, would then present that at some distance from the electrode, the Sun in this case, the ‘build up’ of potential must produce a “breakdown” into “arc discharge” across the “gap”. What “gaps”? The “gaps” composed of the “dark spaces” or “dark discharge” regions within the admixture. This particular aspect of the admixture, using electrons in a simplest case scenario, is dual with a portion contributing to the formation of a “Halo” of electric potential within the sheath. This halo can also undergo "depletions" forming "field-aligned, counterstreaming fluxes
of suprathermal electron":

Solar wind electron halo depletions at 90 ø pitch angle

However, the “Halo” doesn’t consist of an electric potential comprised of electrons alone. It seems that the Sun can ‘draw this potential down’ along the lines of the “inward IMF’ as conjoined inward propagating discharges directed towards Sol. - Source


In relation to that, and along the lines of Cosmic Ray induced local electron production via ionization of 'atmosphere(s)', including the Sun's, consider the cosmic-ray effects of secondary "relativistic runaway electron (RE) avalanches" for which simulations and studies do exist. Relative to each celestial body with some sort of atmosphere(s), including stars, this would obviously be local on the spot high energy electron production. Stars would modulate their internal heliosphere environment (astrospheres) and some of the planets do likewise at smaller scales.

Its interesting that there are lots of sources of electrons, lots of sources of charged species in the heliosphere, while simultaneously different sources of Cosmic rays (Galactic, Supernovae, "anomolous" CR's, Solar CR's). With all of these high energy components providing so many differences in electric potentials how does one determine which is supposedly "powering" the Sun? Its amazing that 'organized structures', as opposed to absolute chaos, is observed in the Cosmos AT ALL!! :lol:
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby Solar » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:53 am

By the way Robertus Maximus. If you scale and place the following images together in a graphics program, even Windows Paint will do, interesting "looks like" correlations are tantalizing:

Earth's Auroral Complexity

The Sun in X-rays

Jupiter Aurora

I think these all function the same in terms of currents entering and simultaneously leaving the poles but that the Sun's Cosmic Ray induced version has to move around extensively because it is Reactively modulating a far more dynamic environment - than the stable environment within the heliosphere, that it provides for the planets.
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby Solar » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:32 pm

celeste wrote:Solar,
If Don Scott's model is correct, a filament embedded in the shell of a larger filament must twist. You've got the picture of our sun skimming the surface of the Local Interstellar cloud. Which means the smaller scale filament that our solar system is strung on, is embedded in the cloud surface. Not any different than the "striations" within "walls" or "shock fronts".
The logic is the same as in this video where Jim shows why planets rotate. Just change the scale (he is showing a planet effectively "skimming" a cylindrical surface.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFnUdaH ... freload=10
Or, since that video is hard to follow, you may have seen Don Scott's time elapsed video of the Northern lights? He showed that they had counter rotating shells. But the significant point, was that it was taken from Earth's surface, which itself had rotated in that time. Which means that series of concentric rotating cylinders, must have itself (as a whole), been twisting at nearly the same rate as earth.


Sharing some thoughts on a part of that (this is a huge topic):

It should be noted that auroral interactions afforded by Dr. Scott's Filament model coupled with detections by Swarm, MMS, and observations by Citizen Scientist regarding upward and downward bidirectional currents into and out of the ionosphere inducing counter-rotating auroral 'rings' have a predecessor:

Zmuda et al. (1966; 1967) published the first direct evidence of Birkeland currents, and later the average configuration was determined (e.g., Iijima and Potemra, 1978). They found that the upward and downward field aligned current system consists of two approximately concentric circles with an overlap in the pre-midnight region (see Figure on the right). This 3-decade-ago model is still the main reference model, although it is based on two simplistic assumptions… - Birkeland Center for Space Science


Zmuda, Iijima, and Potemra actually developed the "average configuration" that has become the Main Reference Model" recently assessed by the efforts of Swarm/MMS. Its been utilized every since:

These studies indicated that the Birkeland currents and electric fields are highly structured in both space and time in apparent violation of the above large-scale model assumptions. - Birkeland Center for Space Science


The "violation of the above large-scale model assumptions" is known about. The currents actually "breakdown" into "a vast range of scale sizes". These smaller scale currents were considered irrelevant at the time of the development of the "average configuration" showing only two counter-rotating auroral rings. That is the violation of "large-scale model assumptions" to which the SWARM article seems to refer. I would offer the possibility that it is the "breakdown" into smaller scale currents that for the Sun produces the smaller "polar jets" of coronal holes.

The work of P. Firsch assessed that the Sun is embedded in a filament. It seems to me that said filament would somehow "breakdown" into "a vast range of scale sizes" also know as "Magnetic ropes":

These twisted helically structured magnetic fields are called flux ropes or “flux transfer events” (FTEs) and are observed at Earth and even more commonly at Mercury. The conditions that allow FTEs to be generated at a planet worsen with distance from the Sun, however they have been observed at all the planets out to Jupiter. - Magnetic Rope observed for the first time between Saturn and the Sun


Astrophysics actively engages in looking for Sun-Planet electric currents - and finding them! Scaling up to the Sun, and using "polar jets" in coronal holes as possible evidence, how else could the Sun's version of "magnetic ropes" and "flux transfer events" between the Sun and its environment manifest? What would be the elusive signature of this interaction as portrayed in the following image (at least its North pole) for Saturn?

Magnetic Ropes at Saturn

Ideally, Polar Jets from coronal holes as manifestation of the "breakdown" into smaller scale currents bidirectionally coupling to the Sun's external environment via discharge known as the fast solar wind, traveling along, and establishing, "open magnetic field lines".
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby seasmith » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:22 pm

jacmac wrote:This is not directly related to the above discussion of possible solar circuits, but I thought it might be useful.

All the data from space probes have been collected within the general area of the ecliptic(orbit of the earth), and/or the solar equatorial plane, with one exception, Ulysses.
The maximum latitude of Ulysses has been 80.2 degrees from the solar equator.
I was wondering just how close to directly above the solar poles was Ulysses ?
The
spacecraft reached its most southerly point, 80.2 degrees
south of the solar equator, on 13 September 1994, at a
distance of 2.3 AU from the Sun.

The data comes from:
https://pds.nasa.gov/ds-view/pds/viewMi ... ME=ULYSSES

Doing some simple trigonometry:
THE CLOSEST ULYSSES COMES TO BEING DIRECTLY ABOVE THE SOUTHERN POLE IS 70 MILLION MILES.
(no distance is given for the north pole pass, but no doubt similar)

Our data regarding the heliospheric environment is quite limited, by geographic location. IMO

Jack


Had made a similar guesstimate, looking for some clearer representation of polar magfield/plasma formations. I was reminded of that inquiry by Solar's mention that "The currents actually "breakdown" into a vast range of scale sizes". (google images of "solar moss", for visual confirmation)
Based largely on cyclonic examples here on Earth, had sought evidence of counter-rotaing vortices (which are probably intersecting vortices nearer the mass CoG);
though one vortex might appear only as 'dark' banding.

Been hammering this nail for a while, but it's probably useful to bear in mind that "concentric-cylindric" field aligned currents, a la Dr Scott, are treated cross-sectionally as a mathematical convenience. Rather as mass/matter coalescing energetic forms, they are concentric, but not cylindrical. Only as mass/matter containing tubes or 'ropes' are they approximately cylindrical.
The point is that the EM repercussions seen on a sun's surface are, imo, 'broken-down' forms of the primary, creating/sustaining pinch; that are apparently spewed out and then often sucked back into the solar orb.

https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net ... osssha.png
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby jacmac » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:35 pm

Thanks seasmith, for remembering that post.
My original figure of 70 million miles was an error.
The better number is 36 million miles. ( I did correct that some time ago)

The point remains.
Ulysses was not ever directly above the solar pole, thus we do not know
what significant solar powering current may be there.

This question also remains.
If there is a main current into the poles,
strong enough to power the sun, why don't we SEE it ?

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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:04 am

This question also remains.
If there is a main current into the poles,
strong enough to power the sun, why don't we SEE it ?

jack


Why don't we see anything in coronal holes or in sunspots ?
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby jacmac » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:27 am

seasmith:
Why don't we see anything in coronal holes or in sunspots ?

Ok, good point.
What about the calm, or quiet sun, condition at the poles ?
Would a strong polar current disrupt the photosphere ?
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby Webbman » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:06 pm

the coronal holes and sunspots is the current going into the sun so you can see it.

Current travels on plasma not magnetic fields. Why would anyone expect the currents that are coming from outside the heliosphere to not travel on the easiest path to the sun?

youll never see any induction the sun might experience from galactic fields just like you don't see the induction of the earths core. You know its hot though and unless you like fables that's the only way.
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby Solar » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:12 pm

The topic is splitting - moving from the filament(s) at large as Robert wants to discuss to the dynamics at, or in, the various 'surfaces', or atmospheres, of the Sun. Its more than appropriate, since the breakdown of the currents is being applied to the larger scale of the Sun being embedded in a filament as put forth by the work of P. Firsch, towards coronal holes, populated with polar jets, on to spicules, on to solar moss. Each of these being manifestations of bidirectional breakdown from the larger to the smaller scale.

One of the things that (to me) can cause a bit of confusion is the neglect of graphic portrayals to include what is often portrayed in EU circles as 'the main current channel' situated at the North and South poles of the Sun
“Observations by Ulysses have shown, during the past solar minimum, that the large scale heliospheric medium at high heliolatitudes is dominated by the relatively uniform speed, fast solar wind streams from the polar coronal holes. The fast solar wind carries magnetic field lines with polarities corresponding, on average, to the dominant photospheric polarities in the two solar hemispheres.” (1)

At solar minimum at solar latitudes southward of 30 degrees and northward of 25 degrees Ulysses detected no magnetic sector structure. However, at heliolatitudes above 60 degrees Ulysses found: “…a surprisingly large number of data points at high latitudes which showed the opposite magnetic polarity to the polarity of the coronal hole in which the solar wind originated.” (1) - (Source)


However, these “large scale folded structures” but “oppositely directed flux tubes which originate in the corona” are the "breakdown" pattern. What is missing here, imho, are the dynamics of the asymmetric Solar version of "POLAR CUSP":

Cluster probes in Polar Cusp

Image

Here is the same dynamic graphically portrayed for the Sun: The Sun's Polar Cusp

Note that the last graphic labels the Sun's Polar Cusp with "Incoming Solar Wind Particles" whereas other representations cut the cusp out altogether and label this region the 'main current channel' with the inference being that the region is instead the axis of a larger filament. In reality, at least as observed at Earth, *some* of the charged solar wind funnels its way down the dayside of the fluted Cusp. Simultaneously, some of the charged solar wind passes the entrance of the Cusp and makes its way rearward along Earth's magnetotail towards the nightside of the planet. Here, they encounter that region in much controversy ("magnetic reconnection") and are accelerated via electric field back towards Earth entering the fluted Cusp on the nighside. This aspect isn't usually elucidated. Therefore, the nightside auroral dynamics are usually of greater intensity than the dayside auroral dynamics as seen here:

Nightside Aurora

With Cusp Regions seeming to be portrayed as the 'main current channel' in some portrayals, to some extent this is true - in the sense that - charged solar wind particles enter these regions guided by the 'global shape' of the magnetic field. Since the currents are bidirectional at Earth, ions in their form of Black Aurora are simultaneously outgoing. For the Sun, Ulysses did not engage the Solar Cusp to the extent that Cluster Probes may have done with Earth. That would be an interesting experiment to be sure. Yet, the Ulysses Mission still detected “large scale folded structures” but “oppositely directed flux tubes which originate in the corona”. Very interesting that this relationship is idealized with perfect axis when the North-South Cusp are actually asymmetric. Interesting implications for how this may scale in relation to the Sun, the local environment, and Cosmic Rays.

jacmac wrote:seasmith:
Why don't we see anything in coronal holes or in sunspots ?

Ok, good point.
What about the calm, or quiet sun, condition at the poles ?
Would a strong polar current disrupt the photosphere ?


There is something to see, to contrast, and compare. Sticking with the notion that the currents breakdown to various scales (this was initially considered irrelevant in the overall assessments) sunspots at the photosphere have been examined in a bit more detail than more prevalent images wherein they appear dark would convey.

"Umbral Dots"

Sunspots are populated by the presence of cooler plasma taking the form of, yet again, smaller scale filaments capable of emitting their own micro jets in the deep photosphere. Like "solar moss", or "spicules" the smaller Umbral Dot filaments likewise have their respective dynamic oscillating up and down along their lengths as they migrate towards the center of the umbra. Quite a lot of documents have populated the literature regarding this particular scale of filaments.

The nearest analog for Umbral Dots would be a somewhat elongated version of the peculiar dynamic seen with Ferofluids under the influence of magnetic field. The "Dots" characterization is a result of viewing their bright hot "tips" straight on as they populate the lower interior of sunspots.

Morphology and evolution of umbral dots and their substructures M. Sobotka, K. G. Puschmann (See: Figure 8)

Sunspot Bright Points - Debi Prasad Choudhary, Toshifumi Shimizu

PROPERTIES OF UMBRAL DOTS FROM STRAY LIGHT CORRECTED HINODE FILTERGRAMS Rohan E. Louis et al

It will take some time to (hopefully) put together a post to showcase a dynamic here that transverses several orders of magnitude from the lab, to aurora, to sunspots.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby seasmith » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:38 am

The point is that the EM repercussions seen on a sun's surface are, imo, 'broken-down' forms of the primary, creating/sustaining pinch; that are apparently spewed out and then often sucked back into the solar orb. -s

This question also remains.
If there is a main current into the poles,
strong enough to power the sun, why don't we SEE it ?

jack



Why don't we see anything in coronal holes or in sunspots ? -s


Solar wrote:
Sunspots are populated by the presence of cooler plasma taking the form of, yet again, smaller scale filaments capable of emitting their own micro jets in the deep photosphere. Like "solar moss", or "spicules" the smaller Umbral Dot filaments likewise have their respective dynamic oscillating up and down along their lengths as they migrate towards the center of the umbra. Quite a lot of documents have populated the literature regarding this particular scale of filaments.



Thank you for the correction to a somewhat rhetorical question.
I should have phrased it as ?Jack, why do coronal holes and sunspots Appear dark?

Your comparison to ferrofluid dynamics is apt as well.
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0

Unread postby Solar » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:29 am

No worries Seasmith.

Sharing some more thoughts:

Planets with magnetospheres displaying auroral activity have North-South Cusp delineated by their global magnetic field. As portrayed in some of the graphics, usually, the Cusp are asymmetric:

When and why is the aurora in the two hemispheres asymmetric? - Birkeland Center for Space Science

*If* scaling this plasma electrodynamic relationship is applicable to the Sun's global magnetic heliosphere at what distance would the heliosphere take on a dipole configuration and where are its version of asymmetric Solar Cusps?

Abstract

With seven years of Interstellar Boundary Explorer (IBEX) observations, from 2009 to 2015, we can now trace the time evolution of heliospheric energetic neutral atoms (ENAs) through over half a solar cycle. At the north and south ecliptic poles, the spacecraft attitude allows for continuous coverage of the ENA flux; thus, signal from these regions has much higher statistical accuracy and time resolution than anywhere else in the sky. By comparing the solar wind dynamic pressure measured at 1 au with the heliosheath plasma pressure derived from the observed ENA fluxes, we show that the heliosheath pressure measured at the poles correlates well with the solar cycle. The analysis requires time-shifting the ENA measurements to account for the travel time out and back from the heliosheath, which allows us to estimate the scale size of the heliosphere in the polar directions. We arrive at an estimated distance to the center of the ENA source region in the north of 220 au and in the south a distance of 190 au. We also find a good correlation between the solar cycle and the ENA energy spectra at the poles. In particular, the ENA flux for the highest IBEX energy channel (4.3 keV) is quite closely correlated with the areas of the polar coronal holes, in both the north and south, consistent with the notion that polar ENAs at this energy originate from pickup ions of the very high speed wind (~700 km s−1) that emanates from polar coronal holes. - TRACKING THE SOLAR CYCLE THROUGH IBEX OBSERVATIONS OF ENERGETIC NEUTRAL ATOM FLUX VARIATIONS AT THE HELIOSPHERIC POLES: D. B. Reisenfeld, M. Bzowski et al


They scaled the heliosphere and found *some* ENA fluxes (4.3 keV) correlate "quite closely" with the area of polar coronal holes?? Every graphic representation of, what would be, the Sun's overall magnetic axis, its comparable asymmetric Cusp, the fluted neck of which gets designated as the 'main current channel' at planetary scales, are always "closed" and confined within the heliosphere at the larger scale:

Source 1

Source 2 (assuming Red and Blue=polarity)

Source 3

Planetary bodies with magnetosphere already demonstrate how they "open" to the Sun's charged environment and React with "return currents" along their asymmetric Cusp. They demonstrate BOTH an "open" and "closed" relationship via modulation of said environment. How does the Sun do likewise relative to its local environment let alone the galactic environment? Its not to say that some of the high speed solar wind can get caught up along magnetic field lines that might be directed towards the IBEX Ribbon; but that certainly makes me wonder about the *possible* presence of a Solar Cusp tilted "in the north of 220 au and in the south a distance of 190 au".

Just speculating though.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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