Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

[Bengt Nyman]

My turn to ask:
1. Why do you expect the weight to change ? Because charges experience a force within your electrostatic dipole field.
2. Will the weight increase or decrease? The excess of pos charge would cause weight to increase, if your dipoles are oriented similarly to Wal's.

Oh Lord. We haven't learned anything, have we:
1. You are not allowed to blame a field which you can not specify because it does not behave like a single origin field.
2. Sansbury's and consequently Thornhill's idea of hanging dipole fruits is wrong. Dipole orientations are to 99.999...% driven by their role in strong forces and atom bonds. The pattern of dipole orientations are therefore grain and domain related, very irregular and very complex.
I will get back to you when I am back on the mainland, and explain why the weight of your aluminum foil does not change, except for the loss a electrons.

[willendure]

This is funny. I like your dipole chains +==================-; yep a wee bit positive on one end and a wee bit negative on the other. But no-one addressed the issue of how gravity acts in all-directions-at-once under such a scheme. Indeed, it looks like you agree with me; a dipole gravity would be direction specific.

Please, how can a dipole gravity work in all directions at once? Without reverting to meta-physical waffle.

[seasmith]

Willendure wrote:
Please, how can a dipole gravity work in all directions at once?

After 23 pages, consensus has come to the realization that the whole "dipole" paradigm is an over-simplification, an heuristic device.
To your question though, just ask yourself, how does a ~point source of light at the center of a glass globe manage to illuminate the entire surface, from every direction outward ?

So from an electric perspective, the functional term would be 'electro-gravitic vectors',
(not dipolar-gravitic vectors).


..Light > Aether
..........∞........
Gravity > Matter

[Bengt Nyman]

Querious hanging foil.

Let us start with a new and otherwise empty universe. The only object in this universe is a piece of aluminum foil attached to a long nylon line.
The aluminum foil is made of aluminum atoms consisting of protons, neutrons and electrons bonded together by electrostatic strong forces and electrostatic atomic bonds. Protons and neutrons are both dipoles consisting of down quarks and up quarks. Atoms are also potential dipoles, with the nuclei at one end and the electron center at the other.
The organization of these dipoles is a result of the electrostatic strong force bonds between protons and neutrons and electrostatic dipole bonds between atoms. This pattern is complex, reflecting grain and domain structure in the aluminum foil. The pattern is anything but uniform and the forces maintaining dipole orientations are strong as implied by their part in strong force.

The foil and nylon string have now been caught by querious and is hanging in a large concrete structure on earth. Querious wonders if charging the foil positively will increase the weight of the foil on earth.

Compared to the dipole pattern observed in gravity-free space the pattern has changed just a little bit. Dipoles earlier concerned only with electrostatic influences associated with strong forces and atomic bonds within the foil have now tipped by fractions of seconds of a degree. The changes are barely noticeable because the holding forces exerted by nearby strong force interactions are very strong while influences from electrostatic constituents in the more distant earth are very weak in proportion to 1/r^2.

Let us now charge the foil positively by removing some electrons from the foil. The result is a number of aluminum atoms missing electrons, becoming positively charged aluminum ions. Since aluminum is conductive, electrons in the foil will move, allowing the electron deficiency to travel to locations allowing maximum distance between positive aluminum ions. The ions will consequently be found evenly-spaced around the periphery of the aluminum foil.

Will this change the weight of the foil ?
Yes, the foil has lost the weight of the missing electrons.
Will this additionally alter the electrostatic interactions between the foil and the earth resulting in a larger change in the measured weight of the aluminum foil ?
No, for two reasons.
Reason number 1:
The positive charge of the foil will attract and induce a local gathering of negative electrical charge in the earth below, superimposing whole body electrostatic attraction between the foil and the earth to the already-existing gravitational attraction but not altering what we define as the gravitational pull, or the weight of the aluminum foil.
Reason number 2:
Dipoles in the lower portion of the foil will experience the influence of the positive ions above it, while dipoles in the upper portion of the foil will experience the influence of the ions below it. These adjustments are internal to the foil, cancel each other externally, and do not influence the electrostatic gravity between the foil and the earth, just as folding the foil in half is a change without any effect on gravity as long as the center of gravity remains in place.

P.S. Problems with the Ralph Sansbury hanging fruit dipole theory:
A theory has been proposed where all dipoles are directed toward the center of the earth.
The problems with this theory are:
1. There would be no strong force or atomic bonds and the aluminum foil would not stay together or exist.
2. The dipoles are all hanging with protons down and electrons up and gravity is caused by the heavier protons outweighing the lighter electrons causing gravity. In other words, the Sansbury idea is based on a circular argument where gravity causes gravity.
This theory also overlooks the roll of up-quark- and down-quark-dipoles, including their dominant roll as electrostatic dipoles causing strong force, atomic bonds and finally gravity.

[willendure]

Willendure wrote:
Please, how can a dipole gravity work in all directions at once?

After 23 pages, consensus has come to the realization that the whole "dipole" paradigm is an over-simplification, an heuristic device.
To your question though, just ask yourself, how does a ~point source of light at the center of a glass globe manage to illuminate the entire surface, from every direction outward ?

So from an electric perspective, the functional term would be 'electro-gravitic vectors',
(not dipolar-gravitic vectors).


..Light > Aether
..........∞........
Gravity > Matter

Please, how can a dipole gravity work in all directions at once? Without reverting to meta-physical waffle.

[seasmith]

So from an electric perspective, the functional term would be 'electro-gravitic vectors',
(not dipolar-gravitic vectors).


Light • Aether
...
Gravity • Matter

-s


Please, how can a dipole gravity work in all directions at once? Without reverting to meta-physical waffle.
-willendure

Just to be clear,
which element in the above quadrature of Light, Aether, Gravity and Matter, do you in your mind, consider "meta-physical"
?

[querious]

Will this additionally alter the electrostatic interactions between the foil and the earth resulting in a larger change in the measured weight of the aluminum foil ?
No, for two reasons.
Reason number 1:
The positive charge of the foil will attract and induce a local gathering of negative electrical charge in the earth below, superimposing whole body electrostatic attraction between the foil and the earth to the already-existing gravitational attraction but not altering what we define as the gravitational pull, or the weight of the aluminum foil.

Reason number 2:
Dipoles in the lower portion of the foil will experience the influence of the positive ions above it, while dipoles in the upper portion of the foil will experience the influence of the ions below it. These adjustments are internal to the foil, cancel each other externally, and do not influence the electrostatic gravity between the foil and the earth, just as folding the foil in half is a change without any effect on gravity as long as the center of gravity remains in place.

Bengt,
Reason #1 and #2 are mutually exclusive. Meaning - you can't have the excess pos charges simultaneously inducing a neg charge in the Earth AND have their external field cancelling with the dipoles of the foil.

So, which is it?

[Chan Rasjid]

Dear Bengt,

...
Let us now charge the foil positively by removing some electrons from the foil. The result is a number of aluminum atoms missing electrons, becoming positively charged aluminum ions. Since aluminum is conductive, electrons in the foil will move, allowing the electron deficiency to travel to locations allowing maximum distance between positive aluminum ions. The ions will consequently be found evenly-spaced around the periphery of the aluminum foil.

Will this change the weight of the foil ?
Yes, the foil has lost the weight of the missing electrons.
Will this additionally alter the electrostatic interactions between the foil and the earth resulting in a larger change in the measured weight of the aluminum foil ?
No, for two reasons.
Reason number 1:
The positive charge of the foil will attract and induce a local gathering of negative electrical charge in the earth below, superimposing whole body electrostatic attraction between the foil and the earth to the already-existing gravitational attraction but not altering what we define as the gravitational pull, or the weight of the aluminum foil.
Reason number 2:
Dipoles in the lower portion of the foil will experience the influence of the positive ions above it, while dipoles in the upper portion of the foil will experience the influence of the ions below it. These adjustments are internal to the foil, cancel each other externally, and do not influence the electrostatic gravity between the foil and the earth, just as folding the foil in half is a change without any effect on gravity as long as the center of gravity remains in place.

Your explanation is a plausible, but an infinitely weak attempt, to defend dipole gravity. It is reasonable to accept that charging the foil will surely cause redistribution and reorientation of all dipoles of the foil as well as those of the earth. I could as easily "refute" your "refutation" of our "refutation". I only need to do simple changes to your piece of work. I will do such manner of simple transformation: "will re-balance the forces" --> "will not re-balance the forces", "weight is the same" --> "weight is not the same". Your defense of dipole gravity just rely on what you choose to say - there is no clearly defined physics involved.

I could try a more serious refutation of your analysis: Let the original "querious foil" be at the North Pole, the N-foil. Let there be another S-foil at the South Pole. When the N-foil is charged, the N-foil and earth dipoles would rearrange themselves. Assume the weight of the N-foil remains exactly the same. Now, there are two different configurations of the earth's dipoles - before and after the charging of the N-foil. Result: the two different configurations of the earth's dipoles would imply that the weight of the S-foil would be affected - therefore undefined! Dipole gravity fails!

Of course, Bengt could attempt an infinite feedback loop argument: the S-foil would reorientate causing further reorientation of the earth's dipole ... causing further reorientation of the dipoles of the N-foil... at final equilibrium of the feedback loops, everything remains fine and balanced.

Only the Almighty God knows if that's how the rebalancing will turn out Wal Thornhill's electric dipole gravity would indeed be correct if that's how nature is designed to work according to the Will of God.

Best regards,
Chan Rasjid.

[Bengt Nyman]

So, which is it?

It is both.
You need to recognize the difference between ES gravity and external charge.

[upriver]

So I have been following this conversation and now I ask the question.
Can dipole gravity explain the force that is generated by the Podkletnov discovery and the subsequent replications?
This force has the same characteristics as a gravity impulse...

Impulse Gravity Generator Based on Charged
YBa2Cu3O7−y Superconductor with Composite Crystal Structure
http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0108005.pdf

Propelling phenomenon revealed by electric discharges into layered Y123 superconducting ceramics
http://www.universons.com/site_publicat ... _EPJAP.pdf

[Pi sees]

Imo it's more likely that the Podkletnov discovery has something to do with inducing diamagnetism.

[kodybatill]

What if gravity is just effects of light and sound coming from hydrogen? Perhaps the sound and light of hydrogen burning in space has existed at least since everything else, and so everything else would contain traces of hydrogen's information as sound and light, inside of those materials as they were forming. Now some of you, for plasma purposes, could check out this book my friend told me about, the heavy water wars. Some of the most serious scientists tasked with creating the Hydrogen bomb started toying around with how you can get spectra bands coming from hydrogen of every single other element, depending on how much energy it is receiving. How-ever, this energy is not always mainly thermal, or electrical or magnetic, but may be a combination of all of them in fractions of each other, that become multiplied whole numbers negative and positive when they are in very specific ratios to each-other. Electrical creates all future electrons, thermal creates all future neutrons, and magnetism creates all future protons. In this way, using different combinations of them in certain ratios will bring forth any element on the periodic table, and from hydrogen even oxygen itself, showing that hydrogen could be in it's own right, water. Sound and light accelerate these forces by creating extra by-product substances with the hydrogen, some of which can either slow down, or accelerate the electric, thermal, and magnetic energies.

[querious]

What if gravity is just effects of light and sound coming from hydrogen?

I think you're really on to something there - that must be why hydrogen balloons float!

[upriver]

Imo it's more likely that the Podkletnov discovery has something to do with inducing diamagnetism.

Did you read the conclusion?? Its a beam that has all of the properties of gravity including penetration of matter...
If gravity is electric or magnetic would you expect it to penetrate matter undiminished?

[Giri]

Later on he suggests that if we are falling, during our fall, we have no mass? I was confused by that as well.

I think he said that during free fall the nuclei would return to the centre of the atoms, so the dipole is no longer present. But if the dipole is responsible for the force that we experience as gravity, then there would be no acceleration during a fall would there?

This theory of gravity is utter nonsense.

He didn't say or imply the nuclei return to centre instantaneously when one falls, "under free fall" suggests acceleration has already ended.