New Sun Model / Capacitor

[jacmac]

When I follow the evidence this is where I find myself.

Basic assumptions:
The sun is electric.
The sun is externally powered.

1. There has been found no large Plasma currents feeding the sun at the poles.
Therefore, the SUN IS POWERED FROM ITS ENTIRE SURROUNDINGS. Charged particles move(drift) toward the sun within the solar system. The corona is where the density becomes great enough for the plasma to glow. Moving closer in, the plasma becomes less chaotic,more organized(presenting as a lower temperature) resulting in the photosphere "discharge".

2. THE SUN, under the photosphere IS A SOLID BODY. Probably made up of matter not unlike our earth and the other nearby planets in the solar system. I believe this because there should be something for the planets to orbit about. Also, there needs to be a reason for the electrical energy to organize at the sun's location.

3. As the positive and negative charges of the plasma move toward and through the photosphere, the electrons are mostly turned back first and become trapped between the two positive layers that are above and below the photosphere, as in the diagrams of Dr. Scott. Enough of the protons penetrate deeper and cause the upper part of the solid body of the sun to become charged positive, driving negative charges into the interior of the sun. Thus THE SUN BECOMES AND IS A SPHERICAL CAPACITOR, with the massive interior acting as the other half of the capacitor "circuit." There could easily be several "double layers" involved above and below the photosphere, as suggested by Charles Chandler, but I mean to present the basic idea of a capacitor sun and not try to explain everything. The solid body thus is the constant receptor of charge and maintains the interior side of the "circuit" necessary to join with the exterior lower Corona to effectuate the arc of the photosphere.

4. The relatively stable size of the photosphere might be explained by a stable physical size of a solid interior and it's electrical capacity. Accepting a solid interior might also explain other phenomena of the sun such as the different rotation rates of the photosphere found nearer and further from the equator for example.

5. I am also suggesting that the Corona, as supplier of plasma to the photosphere, is also the supplier of plasma to the solar wind. Could the solar wind then be the extra plasma not necessary to power the sun being returned to the far reaches of the solar system. Thus the suns radiation is relatively fixed( due to the size of the interior solid body) while the solar wind is free to fluctuate without ill effect to the solar system. I cannot bring myself to think sun spots and coronal holes are direct supplies to the sun, rather they seem like part of a very complex self adjusting mechanism.

All these ideas seem very crude without much detail or science, but as I have seen no one else presenting anything similar, I offer this to the forum for your consideration and comments.

Thank you,
Jack

[jacmac]

OOps !

Sorry forum readers. In paragraph 3 in the above post I certainly got my polarities wrong. The deeper penetrating positive charged particles would tend to repel positive charges on the surface of the solid interior body of the sun, and or attract electrons.
The basic idea that the external plasma would set up a charged solar surface, causing the solar body to act as a capacitor, is the idea i am proposing. Thus the sun surface, below the photosphere, becomes part of the complex double layer system(s ?) just below and above the photosphere.

Not a great way to start a new post.

Jack

[CharlesChandler]

This is possible, but there is very little evidence of particles of any kind moving toward the Sun. The main exception is coronal rain, but that only happens after a CME. So the steady-state condition appears to be just particles flowing away from the Sun, and the challenge would be to figure out why the influx of particles hasn't been detected.

[Metryq]

there is very little evidence of particles of any kind moving toward the Sun.

Seriously? This would seem to be a very big problem for anyone suggesting that the Sun is electrical. Yet in these pages and in all the EU material I've read, I see diagrams showing a current flow between the poles and equator of the Sun, reaching all the way out to the heliopause. Or am I misunderstanding your statement here, or something in all the EU literature I've read?

Side question, but perhaps related: are all space probes roughly within the ecliptic (except the out-going Voyagers and the like), or are there any Solar probes, say, in polar-type orbits?

(Capacitor, huh? Anyone care to argue that the Sun is a 555 timer? Sorry, not funny. A 555 might take several stars.)

[CharlesChandler]

there is very little evidence of particles of any kind moving toward the Sun.

Seriously? This would seem to be a very big problem for anyone suggesting that the Sun is electrical.

Yes, seriously, and yes, this is a big problem for Electric Sun proponents. To my knowledge, my model is the only electric hypothesis that survives close scrutiny of the data. It isn't a flow of current in one side and out the other. Rather, the Sun is basically neutral, but CMEs eject +ions into the heliosphere, leaving the Sun negatively charged, which motivates an electron drift out of the Sun toward the heliosphere. That electron drift is the current that causes the ohmic heating, which produces the heat & light that we get from the Sun. We know that CMEs are positively charged, that the heliosphere is positively charged, and that inside 10 AU, the electrons are still traveling faster than the +ions. So I'm calling it a "catch-up current", where there are both +ions and electrons in the heliosphere, but the electrons are still flowing outward, in the heliospheric current sheet, to neutralize the net charge in the heliosphere, and to get away from the net charge in the Sun. We also know that CMEs are typically associated with sunspots, and that during the Maunder Minimum, when there were far fewer sunspots, there were probably far fewer CMEs, and there was definitely a decrease in temperatures on Earth, which would make sense if the electric current wasn't as strong. So it all fits, but like I said, it isn't a current in one side and out the other.

Yet in these pages and in all the EU material I've read, I see diagrams showing a current flow between the poles and equator of the Sun, reaching all the way out to the heliopause.

Some diagrams are representations of instrumented data, while other diagrams are just foundationless ideas that never went anywhere. Telling the difference isn't always easy -- you have to be familiar with the instrumented data to know which conceptual models are supported by facts. The Alfven current, out of the poles and back in at the equator, was just an idea that never got validated by Space Age instrumentation.

Side question, but perhaps related: are all space probes roughly within the ecliptic (except the out-going Voyagers and the like), or are there any Solar probes, say, in polar-type orbits?

Ulysses was on a polar orbit, and got a lot of useful information. We can determine the velocities of particles by the Doppler shift, which is reliable at these ranges, and which has been confirmed in many ways. So there's no mistaking that there is no steady charge stream flowing into the Sun -- almost all of the particles are flowing away. Like I said, the exception is "coronal rain", which only happens after CMEs. (Some of the ejected matter falls back into the Sun. This happens the most just after the CME, but some inflow has been detected for several months during the most active phases.) Here's a paper on the topic:

http://iopscience.iop.org/1538-4357/562 ... /fulltext/

[Metryq]

Thanks, Charles. I've marked your site, but still have to pick a quiet moment to sit and absorb it. One of the most disturbing things Sagan did in COSMOS was a segment in a library. He was standing by a wall of bookshelves and said, "If I lived an average lifetime and read a book a week, I could read from here..." he walked a few meters, "...to here."

[jacmac]

Yes Capacitor.

CharlesChandler said"

It isn't a flow of current in one side and out the other. Rather, the Sun is basically neutral,

Metryq said:

(Capacitor, huh? Anyone care to argue that the Sun is a 555 timer? Sorry, not funny. A 555 might take several stars.)

What I am trying to describe here is a different way to look at the sun IF IT IS EXTERNALLY ELECTRICALLY POWERED, AND IF there are no very large polar currents flowing into the sun and then flowing out in the solar wind.

If any object that is basically neutral, as Charles describes the sun, then receives a charge it would act as a capacitor, holding the charge until conditions allowed it to discharge. Is this not correct?

I am suggesting that the sun could receive its electrical energy externally from its spherical environment, from all directions. In the process it becomes charged and holds a charge, thus the capacitor designation.

Charles has informed us that there are no currents moving into the sun. That is bad news for this idea if it turns out to be true. However, I am not quite ready to give it up. The first step here is for me to explain this enough so readers could understand what I am saying(not necessarily agree with me) and not dismiss this as a joke. Besides I don't know what a 555 timer is !

To summarize: The electrical energy comes into the "sun" from the corona, charges the upper part of whatever is the interior of the sun, creates the photosphere and all the rest of the layers of charge, double or otherwise, and sends any extra energy back out toward the heliosphere in the solar wind.

If the anode sun or the cathode sun do not pan out I am looking for an alternative.

[diefans]

Does anybody know, if there were any kind of just throwing a probe towards the sun with some sensors just to find out heat gradient, particle density, magnetic field, electric field, accelleration/decelleration, etc. I think this would be the most interesting thing to do.

Just pushing the pobe with an escape velicity towards the sun and see what's going on.

[kiwi]

there is very little evidence of particles of any kind moving toward the Sun.

Seriously? This would seem to be a very big problem for anyone suggesting that the Sun is electrical. Yet in these pages and in all the EU material I've read, I see diagrams showing a current flow between the poles and equator of the Sun, reaching all the way out to the heliopause. Or am I misunderstanding your statement here, or something in all the EU literature I've read?

Side question, but perhaps related: are all space probes roughly within the ecliptic (except the out-going Voyagers and the like), or are there any Solar probes, say, in polar-type orbits?

(Capacitor, huh? Anyone care to argue that the Sun is a 555 timer? Sorry, not funny. A 555 might take several stars.)

Don Scott ------>

Solar Electron Flux1
Dark Electrons Found by NASA
(Latest Update June 2013)

In the late 1970’s Ralph Juergens investigated2
how (or whether) the Sun could be obtaining its
energy via an externally supplied flow of electrical power. He attempted to estimate the number
of available incoming electrons which, coupled with an estimated voltage of the Sun, would be
sufficient to supply the power we know the Sun is emitting. In late 2011 and early 2012-2013, we
found that, because of data recently recovered by the Voyager I space probe, Juergens’ estimate
of the number of available incoming electrons was far too conservative (too low). Also the radius
of the heliosphere is over three times what he thought it might be. As a result of this new data,
Juergens’ initial estimate of the Sun’s required cathode drop (voltage) was far too high. --------

................This calculation makes it clear that it is NOT (my caps added there ) reasonable to conclude that there are not enough electrons entering the Sun’s environment to power it. In fact, in light of the new NASA data, it is now possible to reduce our estimate of the Sun’s voltage to ~ 1010/16,000 = 0.5 million volts = 500 kV which, relatively speaking, is not extremely large. There are commercial transmission lines here on Earth using higher voltages

6
.
NASA’s observation (#3 above) that the direction of the solar wind actually reverses (begins to
flow sunward) out near the heliopause is further confirmation that the analogy between the
behavior of the Sun’s surrounding plasma and what is observed in laboratory “gas” (plasma)
discharge tubes is a valid one. Near the cathode of such a tube, a layer of electrons is often
observed. Such a layer creates a negative electric field (force per unit charge) applied to positive
charge carriers (+ions in the solar wind). The heliopause is a virtual cathode for the Sun’s plasma
discharge.

A standard criticism from skeptics of Juergens’ Electric Star hypothesis has always been, “where
are all the necessary incoming relativistic electrons?” First of all, the incoming electrons do not
have to be (will not be) relativistic. Secondly, it appears NASA is in the process of finding them.
Perhaps Electrical Universe theoreticians should issue a press release entitled “Dark Electrons
Found by NASA.” For this reason this short paper carries that sub-title.

Read full paper here ----> http://electric-cosmos.org/SolarElecFlux2013.pdf

[kiwi]

Does anybody know, if there were any kind of just throwing a probe towards the sun with some sensors just to find out heat gradient, particle density, magnetic field, electric field, accelleration/decelleration, etc. I think this would be the most interesting thing to do.

Just pushing the pobe with an escape velicity towards the sun and see what's going on.

Mar 04, 2008
Anomalous Trajectories

Scientists are puzzled by unexpected acceleration in several unmanned spacecraft as they flew toward the Sun.

In a previous Thunderbolts Picture of the Day article about the so-called “Pioneer anomaly”, we noted that NASA scientists have determined that both Pioneer 10 and 11 are off course by more than a hundred thousand kilometers. Mission specialists admitted that they had no explanation for the navigational deviation so many speculations were announced to the press about what “mysterious” forces could be acting on the tiny probes.

As long ago as September 1998, however, the same enigmatic forces were also reported to be acting on the Ulysses spacecraft that is currently in a high orbit through the Solar System. In that case Ulysses demonstrated a sunward acceleration when radio signals from Earth bounced off a transponder onboard the solar observatory and indicated a Doppler shift in the frequency of the return transmission. The induced frequency shift was greater than could be affected by any known mechanism and no one in the conventional science community can yet account for it.

More space probes are now being added to the mix. After examining telemetry from NEAR-Shoemaker (now resting on the surface of Asteroid Eros), the Galileo mission to Jupiter, Cassini-Huygens (one part each orbiting Saturn and the other resting on the surface of Titan), the Rosetta cometary probe and the MESSENGER mission to Mercury, a similar discrepancy has been detected.

John Anderson, a retired astronomer currently on assignment to NASA, recently wrote:

"I am feeling both humble and perplexed by this. There is something very strange going on with spacecraft motions. We have no convincing explanation for either the Pioneer anomaly or the flyby anomaly.... We should continue to monitor spacecraft during Earth flybys. We should look carefully at newly recovered Pioneer data for more evidence of the Pioneer anomaly. We should think about launching a dedicated mission on an escape trajectory from the solar system, just to look for anomalies in its motion."

Astronomers are baffled by this situation because the standard theories of motion in the cosmos rest within a gravitational model. In fact, gravitational theory is considered by cosmologists to be the most useful way of explaining the way that the universe behaves, as well as being one of its greatest mysteries.

Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) is one of the more exotic ideas proposed for how the spacecraft are being affected by these subtle changes in speed and direction. Perhaps it is no more exotic than suggesting multi-dimensional space, dark energy, dark matter friction and other non-falsifiable theories like “gravity affecting anti-matter differently.”

This is yet another in a long line of speculative ideas that must be concocted when no thought is given to the positive charge that resides in the Sun. The Sun’s positive charge sets up a steady electric field in the plasma of interplanetary space that attracts negatively charged objects back towards it. In another Thunderbolts Picture of the Day, we discussed “backstreaming electrons” as evidence for the Sun’s electric field.

When spacecraft are launched into Earth orbit, or out to explore the other planets, they gather a negative charge as fast-moving electrons build up on the surface. Typically the shell of a satellite can gain hundreds or thousands of volts relative to its plasma environment.

As Wal Thornhill discussed in "A Mystery Solved," in the weak but steady electric field of the Sun negatively charged spacecraft will experience a small “anomalous” acceleration toward the Sun. Scientists seem much too eager to invoke "new physics" when the first requirement is to choose the right model. Then the "old" physics will do. Perhaps today "new physics" has too much appeal in the frantic scramble for a Nobel Prize.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/ ... tories.htm

[CharlesChandler]

In the late 1970’s Ralph Juergens investigated how (or whether) the Sun could be obtaining its
energy via an externally supplied flow of electrical power. He attempted to estimate the number of available incoming electrons which, coupled with an estimated voltage of the Sun, would be sufficient to supply the power we know the Sun is emitting. In late 2011 and early 2012-2013, we found that, because of data recently recovered by the Voyager I space probe, Juergens’ estimate of the number of available incoming electrons was far too conservative (too low). Also the radius of the heliosphere is over three times what he thought it might be. As a result of this new data, Juergens’ initial estimate of the Sun’s required cathode drop (voltage) was far too high.

Why look at scant data from the heliopause to determine if the Sun is electrically powered from outside of the heliosphere? We have many, many, many more data from nearer the Sun, especially around the Earth. And all of the data say that the particles are almost entirely streaming away from the Sun (with a few rare exceptions, such as coronal rain after a CME), and that within 10 AU, the electrons are streaming away from the Sun faster than the +ions. These are much more robust data, having been collected over long periods by numerous satellites, and they all say the same thing. And the Sun could not be externally powered without that power passing through the space between the heliopause and the Sun. So if we're going to look at the data at all (i.e., "it's all about the data", right?) then the first conclusion would be that there is a negative current exiting the Sun. So the Sun is a cathode, not an anode.

On closer inspection, the current isn't between the Sun and the heliopause, because it dies out after 10 AU. Back at 1 AU, it's only 109 amps total, which is 6 orders of magnitude too low to account for the Sun's power. If it's 1015 amps at the Sun, and 109 amps at 1 AU, and if it's down to practically nothing at all at 10 AU, then the electric field is between 10 AU and the Sun, and at 10 AU, all of the potential drop has already been used up. So the Sun is a cathode, while the anode is the interplanetary medium, not the heliopause, and not the interstellar medium.

To maintain the galactic current hypothesis, you have to ignore the vast majority of data, and focus in on a few obscure details concerning the double-layer in the heliopause. "Cherry-picking" doesn't do that justice.

[Metryq]

To maintain the galactic current hypothesis, you have to ignore the vast majority of data, and focus in on a few obscure details concerning the double-layer in the heliopause. "Cherry-picking" doesn't do that justice.

As much as I want the galactic current, "everything is connected" idea to work, I have to side with the evidence. And I respect Charles for keeping us focused. (It's not just gravity keeping our feet on the ground.)



By the way, a 555 timer is a very common integrated circuit. Every noob to electronics uses it in beginner projects.

[kiwi]

Hi Chales

Why look at scant data from the heliopause to determine if the Sun is electrically powered from outside of the heliosphere?

There is Data not worth looking at in what is a dynamic EM situation? ... What has Don Scott said in reply to your objections? .... both personal and technical. I am fairly trusting in his abillity to calculate quantities etc ... if there are mistakes in his work it serves all to be aware, not least Prof Scott himself.

Cheers

[CharlesChandler]

What has Don Scott said in reply to your objections?

He hasn't.

[Sparky]

As far as I know a star is a dipole or series of dipoles. A dipole conducts forever, from the vacuum field. The energy from the vacuum field is inexhaustible. A star may not die because of this available energy.