The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.

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robheus
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by robheus » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:22 am

Native wrote:
Gravity is the weakest link of all fundamental forces. Totally ignoring the (real) other 3 forces gives a huge deficit on the energy bottom line.
The weak and strong nuclear force have a limited span, smaller then an atom. We can forget about that explaining orbits in the universe. The electric force and magnetic force come into play, but don't forget that astronomical objects on average are electrically neutral. Gravity is not. That is why gravity always wins at large enough scales, since on those scales, matter is electricaly neutral.

Rossim
Posts: 139
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by Rossim » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:59 pm

robheus wrote:
Native wrote:
Gravity is the weakest link of all fundamental forces. Totally ignoring the (real) other 3 forces gives a huge deficit on the energy bottom line.
The weak and strong nuclear force have a limited span, smaller then an atom. We can forget about that explaining orbits in the universe. The electric force and magnetic force come into play, but don't forget that astronomical objects on average are electrically neutral. Gravity is not. That is why gravity always wins at large enough scales, since on those scales, matter is electricaly neutral.
Do you think a nebula consisting of dust and plasma is neutral because it has the same amount of protons and as electrons? If so, I see why you're abandoning the EU ideology. A neutral cloud of plasma can condense due to gravity, I'll give you that. But as soon as you have any kinetic energy being applied to the neutral plasma, the lighter electrons will be accelerated to a larger velocity than the much heavier protons. This fact alone will create an electric field that builds until the field is strong enough to repel the incoming electrons, sustaining double layers. The moving electric field create magnetic fields which force matter into thin filaments. This is why nebulas have such strange characteristics that are usually attributed to supernova explosions or black holes (untestable and therefore an invalid theory).

And when you compare the sample size of GR, it's hard to believe we're still using it. All of the moons and satellites are behaving how we observe them inside the sun's influential heliosphere. As soon as we get out of our solar system, all celestial movements become anomalous. Of course, if gravity explains all movements inside our solar system, then you should start with gravity as the controlling force. But as soon as you discover a number of inconsistencies, the prevailing theory should be abandoned or at least apply equal effort in investigating alternative ideas (preferably ones which are testable, like most EU applications).

Dotini
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by Dotini » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:02 pm

robheus wrote: ...astronomical objects on average are electrically neutral.
..and a frozen frog tossed into a pot of boiling water is, on average, pleasantly warm.

Native
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by Native » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:00 pm

@robheus
What is it that makes this so difficult for you to grasp?

1.The law of celestial motion was based on the planets motion around the Sun as the gravitational center, OK?

2. This law is induced into all other kind of motions in cosmos together with the laws of attraction, OK?

3. You have 1 kind of gravitational and celestial motion our Solar System, OK?

4. You use the same laws for a different kind of celestial motions around a gravity center in our galaxy, OK?

5. So what is the problem?

Either you just don´t read the texts and ponder over it - or your natural inborn logical skills must have been sincerely damaged and paralysed on University under the influenced of the huge amount of illogical assumptions in modern physics.

Why do you think Einstein launched a new attempt of gravitational laws? Just for the fun of it?

If you even cannot read; analyse and draw a logical conclusion from a written explanation, I just give up. Don´t bother to reply in this topic anymore.
Life makes senses and who could doubt it, if you have no doubt about it. - "Grooks" by Piet Hein - My fellow Danish countryman and also a Natural Philosopher

Frantic
Posts: 255
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by Frantic » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:52 pm

robheus wrote:
Native wrote:
Gravity is the weakest link of all fundamental forces. Totally ignoring the (real) other 3 forces gives a huge deficit on the energy bottom line.
The weak and strong nuclear force have a limited span, smaller then an atom. We can forget about that explaining orbits in the universe. The electric force and magnetic force come into play, but don't forget that astronomical objects on average are electrically neutral. Gravity is not. That is why gravity always wins at large enough scales, since on those scales, matter is electricaly neutral.
At what scale are we considering large enough? At this threshold can we prove the matter is electrically neutral?

Does it appear the bodies are neutral because all the charge exchange happens between bodies

If on average it is neutral that does not necessarily mean anything because the neutrality is considered dependent from all other neutral masses. When compared and looked at from the perspective of a circuit. It can be seen that two neutral bodies could be off average and comparatively are not neutral, for example one is more positive than the other. These statistical fluctuations provide a path for current to flow, and the fluctuations never stop, neutrality is never exactly reached and current never stops flowing. As you stated electric and magnetic force do come into play. The question is, how neutral is the cosmos really? Are the charge separations enough to account for the action of electric force replacing or supplementing gravity, or is dark matter more reasonable?

quantauniverse
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by quantauniverse » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:26 pm

Abandon gravity entirely and replace it with the super fluid vacuum theory. In a new paper Tom Broadhurst, a famous scientist, says to "Rethink dark matter."
http://www.ehu.es/p200-hmencont/en/cont ... homas.html
He says dark matter is quantum fluids and BEC's, and solitons are in galaxy centers! Just one mistake if this is true, and that would be to rethink dark matter. Instead think originally and creatively, abandon gravity requiring dark matter, and study these phenomena directly. Solotons are in superfluids and have two direction countervortices. They can form two close corotating pairs just like close binary stars. What's important is that the electric currents and associated magnetic fields are practically produced friction free to spin a galaxy with jets etc. I think superfluid helium is the main constituent of black holes, and molecular hydrogen burns stars. The Kapitza spider experiment produces spiral arm like spider filaments and the helium fountain is like the galaxy bubble with positron antimatter

Morphix
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by Morphix » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:34 pm

Hi Robheus. So far as the dark matter hypothesis goes, it has been falsified by well known physicists, most recently by Kroupa, Pawlowski and assocates. Please take a look at the "Dark Matter Crisis: rise and fall of cosmological hypotheses" thread from a few weeks back for links to their relevant papers and presentations. I look forward to your further thoughts after reviewing this material.
Last edited by Morphix on Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

robheus
Posts: 70
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by robheus » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:39 pm

Rossim wrote:
Do you think a nebula consisting of dust and plasma is neutral because it has the same amount of protons and as electrons? If so, I see why you're abandoning the EU ideology. A neutral cloud of plasma can condense due to gravity, I'll give you that. But as soon as you have any kinetic energy being applied to the neutral plasma, the lighter electrons will be accelerated to a larger velocity than the much heavier protons. This fact alone will create an electric field that builds until the field is strong enough to repel the incoming electrons, sustaining double layers. The moving electric field create magnetic fields which force matter into thin filaments. This is why nebulas have such strange characteristics that are usually attributed to supernova explosions or black holes (untestable and therefore an invalid theory).

And when you compare the sample size of GR, it's hard to believe we're still using it. All of the moons and satellites are behaving how we observe them inside the sun's influential heliosphere. As soon as we get out of our solar system, all celestial movements become anomalous. Of course, if gravity explains all movements inside our solar system, then you should start with gravity as the controlling force. But as soon as you discover a number of inconsistencies, the prevailing theory should be abandoned or at least apply equal effort in investigating alternative ideas (preferably ones which are testable, like most EU applications).
Well, like I said: in the universe at large scales only two forces (electro-magnetism taken as 1 force) that can play a role: gravity and electro-magnetism. But we hold it that at large enough scales, matter is electrically neutral, so at large enough scales, electro-magnetism would neutralize I guess. So that is why cosmology takes it that gravity dominates the universe. I think that is true.

Electro-magnetism is however a much stronger force then gravity. But the electric charge of astronomical objects is percentwise small (as ratio of the total charges of which the object is built).

But at least EU/PC can have a point in that those electro-magnetic forces at "smaller" ("smaller" relative to the size of the universe, on a scale in which there is still some electric non-neutrality) scales can and do play a role, and which has not been investigated enough.

robheus
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:21 am

Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by robheus » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:47 pm

Frantic wrote: At what scale are we considering large enough? At this threshold can we prove the matter is electrically neutral?

Does it appear the bodies are neutral because all the charge exchange happens between bodies

If on average it is neutral that does not necessarily mean anything because the neutrality is considered dependent from all other neutral masses. When compared and looked at from the perspective of a circuit. It can be seen that two neutral bodies could be off average and comparatively are not neutral, for example one is more positive than the other. These statistical fluctuations provide a path for current to flow, and the fluctuations never stop, neutrality is never exactly reached and current never stops flowing.
I don't know at what scales it can be said that matter is neutral. Only thing we do know (or at least have strong reasons for assuming) is that matter as a whole is electrically neutral: there is as much positive as negative charge in the whole universe.

To have an object electrically non-neutral, a force has to be applied. The difference in electric potential costs energy. (else we could have "free" electricity!). That force has to come from somewhere.
As you stated electric and magnetic force do come into play. The question is, how neutral is the cosmos really? Are the charge separations enough to account for the action of electric force replacing or supplementing gravity, or is dark matter more reasonable?
Well it is the EU/PC hypothese that wants to put up an alternative theory, in which dark matter is no longer needed.
If you state that dark matter is not necessary to explain the observation, then show me the theory, the predictions or model, that we can test.
Last edited by robheus on Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

robheus
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by robheus » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:50 pm

Morphix wrote:Hi Robheus. So far as the dark matter hypothesis goes, it has been falsified by well known physicists, most recently by Kroupa, Pawlowski and assocates. Please take a look at the "Dark Matter Crisis: rise and fall of cosmological hypotheses" thread from a few weeks back for links to their relevant papers and presentations. I look forward to your further thoughts after reviewing this material.
Can you provide a link to that subject?

robheus
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:21 am

Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by robheus » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:20 pm

To explain the "dark matter" phenomena, there is also a much weirder explenation.

Let us for example assume that - like the electric charge, which can be positve and negative - there exist also postive and negative mass. Current physics regards that (based on quantum theory, I guess) as unphysical. But suppose that is wrong. How would that change the picture?

Well, the negative mass matter would have some weird properties.
Gravitationally, it would mean that like masses have an attractive force, and unlike masses and repulsive force. However, taken that the inertial mass is equal to the gravitational mass, the acceleration of negative mass would be in the opposite direction in which the force is applied!

This would mean:
- positive masses accelerate towards each other
- negative masses accelerate away from each other (like a repulsive force on positive matter)
- a positive mass would accelerate away from a negative mass, but a negative mass would accelerate towards a positive mass!

There have been done some theoretical studies on this, for example by Bondi.
See for example this paper.
The paper suggests that the positive/negative mass pair would not actually chase each other but would perform what is called a "zitterbewegung".

Suppose we have intially both positive and negative mass matter. What would occur?
The positive mass matter would gravitationally bind together.
The negative mass matter would spread out and dilute itself initially. But because negative mass matter still is accelerating towards positive mass matter, it would accumulate in a halo around clusters of positive mass matter.

Note also that the attraction/repulsion for the electric force for negative mass matter is opposite to that of positive mass matter: like charges would accelerate towards each other (like an attractive force for positive mass matter) and unlike charges would accelerate away from each other (like a repulsive force for positive mass matter).

So this would give some weird interference between positive and negative mass matter, both gravitationally and electrically!

However, the existence of negative mass matter has not been confirmed, and is clearly outside of the "standard model".

Only thing is I think they do need to try to model it, and see if that explains all the anomalous gravitational phenomena that used to be attributed to dark matter.

----------
Some papers on this:
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NB. "negative mass matter" is not the same as "anti-matter" because the latter is just a charge-symetry (opposite charge as normal matter) but with positive mass. That is why it costs energy to create a matter/enti-matter particle and annihilation of such a pair, creates energy. A positive/neagative mass pair of equal absolute magnitude would cost no energy.

See also: this page,
Last edited by robheus on Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rossim
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by Rossim » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:51 pm

robheus, why would you feel a need to invent negative mass physics with the hope to create a repulsive force when known physics already produces an attractive & repulsive force wrapped into one with electric charge? And neutrality has little to do with the number of positive and negative charges in the universe, it's the separation of charge that yields complex structures and movement. More specifically it's the lucky fact that an electron and proton both have exactly the same magnitude of charge but vastly different masses. From your statements, it seems that you don't have much of an understanding of electromagnetic physics, especially plasma physics. Please google 'plasma scaling' and you'll discover that the exact same EM equations apply between single point charges to massive bodies of charge, from the size of an atom to the vastness of intergalactic space.

robheus
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by robheus » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:56 pm

Rossim wrote:robheus, why would you feel a need to invent negative mass physics with the hope to create a repulsive force when known physics already produces an attractive & repulsive force wrapped into one with electric charge? And neutrality has little to do with the number of positive and negative charges in the universe, it's the separation of charge that yields complex structures and movement. More specifically it's the lucky fact that an electron and proton both have exactly the same magnitude of charge but vastly different masses. From your statements, it seems that you don't have much of an understanding of electromagnetic physics, especially plasma physics. Please google 'plasma scaling' and you'll discover that the exact same EM equations apply between single point charges to massive bodies of charge, from the size of an atom to the vastness of intergalactic space.
The only point is that there are several different hypothesis that can be tested to solve the problem. EU/PC is one of them, but others are also on the table.

Further, as far as I know, EU/PC makes only qualitative predictions, not quantitative predictions. We need actual quantative predictions to see if the theory matches observations. Else we don't have a theory, only some good idea.

Rossim
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by Rossim » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:13 am

robheus wrote: The only point is that there are several different hypothesis that can be tested to solve the problem. EU/PC is one of them, but others are also on the table.

Further, as far as I know, EU/PC makes only qualitative predictions, not quantitative predictions. We need actual quantative predictions to see if the theory matches observations. Else we don't have a theory, only some good idea.
Well we're making some progress. I'm sure you're familiar with Occam's Razor, from Wikipedia: "among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected." Negative mass... big assumption. Dark matter, which is not "missing matter", does not absorb or emit light and doesn't interact chemically with normal matter, only gravitationally exactly as needed... big assumption.

I can't comment on quantitative predictions vs qualitative predictions but when comet Hyakutake began emitting x-rays, it was a prediction of EU theorists that baffled mainstream scientists. You want that in quantitative format? Prediction of EU: anything >1 eV X-ray emission. Mainstream prediction: comets are dirty snow balls slowly melting, no x-rays can be produced... duh.

saul
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread post by saul » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:31 am

robheus wrote:
NB. "negative mass matter" is not the same as "anti-matter" because the latter is just a charge-symetry (opposite charge as normal matter) but with positive mass. That is why it costs energy to create a matter/enti-matter particle and annihilation of such a pair, creates energy. A positive/neagative mass pair of equal absolute magnitude would cost no energy.
Interesting, thanks. We definitely need to think outside the box to explain galaxies because nothing seems to work in here :)

One thing you might be interested to note is that we know nothing about the active or passive gravitational properties of antimatter. We don't even know if antimatter falls towards the earth. So there is definitely some room here for similar lines of thought to your "negative mass". There is a french team that is working in explaining galactic rotation with antimatter which made it on the cover of science et vie.

Cheers - saul

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