The Space Elevator, again!

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.

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Re: The Space Elevator, again!

Unread postby Sparky » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:52 am

There needs to be a way to examine the possible damages of any craft reentering the atmosphere, either with a space walk, or a robot, streaming video.. ;)
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Re: The Space Elevator, again!

Unread postby Metryq » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:56 am

While going over some books with futuristic space concepts in them, this "space elevator as giant lightning rod" idea hit me in a new way. The Dyson sphere concept is also dependent on stars as isolated, fusion-powered coals radiating energy into electrically neutral space. Could a race inadvertently snuff their star by building such a sphere, or would the Dyson sphere become the new anode surface? (D'oh!)

Smaller variants, like Larry Niven's RINGWORLD might also have unexpected problems. For example, we know there is a gradient in the electrical field of the Solar system with increasing distance from the Sun, but is that field uniform in all directions? (Do Jovian planets create variations?) If the field is non-uniform, even a perfectly concentric "ringworld" might become another "giant lightning rod."

(Interplanetary audio engineers will have some nasty "ground loop" hums to deal with.)
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Re: The Space Elevator, again!

Unread postby Phorce » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:15 am

My impression was that the electrical charge could be used to add magnetic cohesion to a specialised material thus allowing the tether to have enough strength.
Exploration and discovery without honest investigation of "extraordinary" results leads to a Double Bind (Bateson, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind ) that creates loss of hope and depression. No more Double Binds !
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Re: The Space Elevator, again!

Unread postby knomegnome » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:15 pm

Anyone who could engineer a Dyson sphere would probably know about the Electrical Sun ;-)

As to the OP.. I noticed noone commented on what caused the disconnect. Interestingly, NASA says, to paraphrase, that it is believed to have been caused by a current spike induced by the tether being dragged through the earth's magnetic field...

???

The earth's magnetic field just doesn't have the punch to do that, if you do the math on it. Its in the single digit amps, even for a really long cable. However their cable suffered a very violent disconnection, from looking at the reports.

So we are assuming a plasma event caused it.. of course we don't have any evidence for that...

...by the way, why isn't anyone putting up a big balloon with a long cable? Now that would be a neat test! Tesla even liked the idea.
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Re: The Space Elevator, again!

Unread postby Phorce » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:10 am

Then they could run their electric heater from resulting charge ... but I guess they have the burners to warm their hands on ;)
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Re: The Space Elevator, again!

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:54 am

http://news.yahoo.com/futuristic-moon-e ... 23205.html

Going to test elevator on the moon first.... ;)

Lift mass to anchor the Earth line... ;)

Have a machine to crawl up and down the lines... ;)

Putting a non conductor through the Van Allen belts.... :?

Spark??! ;)
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space elevator redeux

Unread postby keithnellie » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:56 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/video/proposed-lu ... 00254.html

I originally became exposed to the Electric Universe because I was enamored with Arthur C Clarke's concept in one of his books of a space elevator. I even came up with a process to create carbon nanotubes in the process of burning coal to produce electricity solving :D the clean energy riddle and providing a source of nanotubes to create the ribbon for the elevator.

Then one of the shuttle missions tried the tether experiment which was a disaster. It seems dragging a conductive tether through the upper atmosphere produced currents a thousand times higher than expected and destroyed the tether and instruments. It seemed there was a lot of electricity out there so a little google searching and here I am.

From an electric universe point of view what would have happened had the tether reached ground? Could we create a ribbon capable of handling the current? Would the satellite on the end be like a cosmic lightning rod? And would the same thing happen if they tried the elevator on the moon?
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Re: space elevator redeux

Unread postby Sparky » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:37 pm

Are you erecting a ribbon through both the negative VanAllen and the positive? :shock:
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Re: space elevator redeux

Unread postby 4realScience » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:39 pm

Let’s assume we could brute force a connection from space-elevator height, 65,000 miles, to Earth surface. Let’s say we could solve all problems in doing so. This cable would experience tens of millions of volts drop along its length and currents would be very high but unknown so far. Let’s say the cable could handle it.

The effect would be to make a point on the Earth’s surface, where it touched, equal in potential to the point in space. It would in effect short-circuit the protective plasma cells that normally protect the Earth from the Sun’s electrical influence.

We know the Sun produces widely varying CMEs (coronal mass ejections) so those would no longer be insulated and dispersed in the region of the cable. My feeling is that at the point the cable touched, near enough, the Earth’s surface there would be hellacious activity. Volts and currents would wildly swing and there would be EDM, electrical discharge machining, greater than there is on Earth’s Moon. You would see huge cratering and destruction at near the point of contact. It would be beyond Moon-level events since it would be a short-circuit effect drawing on vast volumes in near-Earth space and concentrating them on the tether.

But let’s say we really WANT this elevator to work. If so, we would need to provide sufficient grounding to support these large discharges. We would have build a vast system of grounding to conduct them. Of course it would be in the deep ocean, at the equator. We would use vast conductors, inverse christmas–tree, to spread the electrics into the deep ocean. The tether would attach to this above the water and Attachment Day would be a very large event. (There may be a good sci-fi book along this line.)

???
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Re: space elevator redeux

Unread postby Metryq » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:55 am

4realScience, I don't understand your arguments. First you talk about short circuiting the insulation between Earth and space, then you talk of well entrenched grounding. (Lots of boiled fish, I'm thinking.) If the potential is there, we don't want to ground it. We want some way to avoid grounding it. If the elevator is isolated at the space potential (or vice versa), somewhere there is going to have to be an interface. Otherwise, what's the point?

Do we need the biggest isolation transformer ever made? Or maybe an Everest-sized diode?
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Re: space elevator redeux

Unread postby 4realScience » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:49 pm

Metryq, I am glad you are on the case.

To summarize, my initial feeling about your advocacy of of Isolation/Insulation instead of direct connection gave me mainly this reaction: wouldn't a better motto, course -of-action, be "Use the Force, Don't Resist It"? ;)


And to accent: this is mainly a 'direct current' process: D.C.(nearly, perhaps a little A.C. but not much). So isolation transformers aren't so required. So Mt.Everest Diodes are not required at all since environment is already 99.9% Direct Current.

Going slowly but in some depth along here.
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Re: The Space Elevator, again!

Unread postby Metryq » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:29 am

But is it DC? I've always been curious about the 11-year sunspot cycle—not to change the subject. EU is scalable. Things that happen at a small scale also happen at a much larger scale, but slower. Could we build an accurate scale model of the Earth in order to test the space elevator idea?

I think it might have been an Arthur C. Clarke book where I read a description of a space "fountain." Platforms were cycled, like a juggler. Thus, there was no single line running from the ground out into space. That doesn't mean electrical effects can be ignored—look at comets. With that in mind, what causes the "ionization blackout" as a spacecraft deorbits? Is there more to it than simple friction with the air? Is the spacecraft also dumping a charge?

Could a charge in space actually work for us? Is there a way to make a "semi-conductor" gate from the ground up to orbit, some kind of rail gun, but with variable acceleration? (Passengers can't tolerate the acceleration used to put satellites into orbit.) If it were like a transistor, we might need a tiny control voltage to loft huge masses into orbit.
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Re: The Space Elevator, again!

Unread postby 4realScience » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:39 pm

Let's stick with the (dreaded) Space Elevator (zzzZAAAAAPPPP!!!!) in this thread.

Aside; my take on the the '11-year' sunspot cycle is:

- it is really a 22 year cycle: astronomers don't understand signal

processeing theory; they think the positive part of the waveform is a 'cycle' while

the negative part is another 'cycle'. This is pre-19th century stuff. Same as they

don't get plasma, either. Old guys (too old) are running their ship.

- the planet Jupiter orbits the Sun about every 11 years: interesting.

- the natural curl, spring-like structure, to the Birkeland currents the Sun

and solar sytem is following, as it moves in the Milky Way, may revolve once every 22

years. That would explain it all, ... perhaps? Nevertheless back to the Elevator
.



Could a charge in space actually work for us?


The more I consider it the more I think this charge source, energy source, might be

the most profound first effect of establishing the Elevator. With this structure, with

the tether and attachment, we would tap the 'Solar Wind' (plasma sheet) at Earth.

Huge currents would flow (yeah, D.C. not A.C.) in the Tether and they could be

mined...used to power our projects on the Earth. How they would compare to solar

voltaic cells, I do not know,exactly. Takes math here.
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Re: The Space Elevator, again!

Unread postby nick c » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:40 pm

There seems to be a considerable effort to develop the Space Elevator.
http://www.space.com/27225-space-elevat ... pid=558275
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Re: The Space Elevator, again!

Unread postby nick c » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:40 pm

Here is an update on recent Space Elevator development:
http://www.space.com/30272-space-elevat ... 2015-08-17

This would probably not be a good idea, anyway it would be a good test of a EU prediction.
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