"No Black Holes" says Hawking!

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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby viscount aero » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:23 am

Metryq wrote:
viscount aero wrote:This is all so surreal and awesome. I nearly can't believe the establishment is venturing so far as to claim doubt to event horizons and thus black holes. You'd think this would be headline news but I haven't seen a word of it anywhere outside of science circles.


A formal announcement will be made once they figure out how to explain the illusion that black holes do not exist (when they really do) through some jumble of strings, branes, global warming and dark matter. Hawking will be thrown under a cosmic bus, and that will be the end of it.

"Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and refracted the light from Venus."
—K, Men in Black

Oh yes what was I thinking! This will only be explained away as an anomalous conclusion needing more research! Silly me! Black holes do exist! :lol:
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby Metryq » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:59 am

Stop the presses! According to the latest Spacenews, Hawking hasn't renounced black holes, he is merely redefining them... again. The sign of a good theory is its malleability to be reworked whenever new and unpredicted observations become troublesome.

Next up: not all black holes are black. Some are red, some are blue. Some have a polarizing effect that makes them invisible whenever an unbeliever points a radio telescope at them.
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:45 am

Metryq wrote:Stop the presses! According to the latest Spacenews, Hawking hasn't renounced black holes, he is merely redefining them... again. The sign of a good theory is its malleability to be reworked whenever new and unpredicted observations become troublesome.

Next up: not all black holes are black. Some are red, some are blue. Some have a polarizing effect that makes them invisible whenever an unbeliever points a radio telescope at them.

LOL

Your dry wit is awesome :lol: Yes of course the black hole can't be totally thrown out! What would everyone do with themselves?
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:24 am

Yes of course the black hole can't be totally thrown out! What would everyone do with themselves?
:?

hmmmmm, maybe move on to something real and useful... ;)
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:05 am

Sparky wrote:
Yes of course the black hole can't be totally thrown out! What would everyone do with themselves?
:?

hmmmmm, maybe move on to something real and useful... ;)


Oh no--au contraire! Hawking had to qualify his position as not one that denounces black holes! Guess why? Because they're useful! He realized he'd be shutting down an entire infrastructure based on them! He may even have had death threats--maybe a severed horse head appeared on his bed last night!
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby nick c » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:44 pm

Stephen Crothers says that there is not much to note in Hawkings latest pronouncement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz2A4qXJQjc
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby Sparky » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:59 am

It has been proposed that a magnetic field is a mass. Does magnetic field escape the BH?

:?
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby Morphix » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:49 pm

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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby viscount aero » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:45 pm



Well for that matter an entire legion of scientists for years have denounced black holes including Einstein. But many or most of these voices have been silenced or ignored by the establishment. Conversely, Stephen Hawking is the establishment. So if Hawking announces views that run contrary to the establishment it matters more. Moreover, Hawking will probably not credit forerunners to anti-black hole theory because he would be admitting to being too wrong for too long. So he makes no mention of previous dissent.
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby Morphix » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:01 pm

Well for that matter an entire legion of scientists for years have denounced black holes including Einstein. But many or most of these voices have been silenced or ignored by the establishment. Conversely, Stephen Hawking is the establishment. So if Hawking announces views that run contrary to the establishment it matters more. Moreover, Hawking will probably not credit forerunners to anti-black hole theory because he would be admitting to being too wrong for too long. So he makes no mention of previous dissent.


Exactly.
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby viscount aero » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:49 pm

Morphix wrote:
Well for that matter an entire legion of scientists for years have denounced black holes including Einstein. But many or most of these voices have been silenced or ignored by the establishment. Conversely, Stephen Hawking is the establishment. So if Hawking announces views that run contrary to the establishment it matters more. Moreover, Hawking will probably not credit forerunners to anti-black hole theory because he would be admitting to being too wrong for too long. So he makes no mention of previous dissent.


Exactly.

Yes.

And to add, not that it necessarily needs be mentioned, but literally 99.9% of all people who read popular science press releases (from mainstream magazines such as "Discover" or "Scientific American") have no idea that there was ever any serious pre-existing contingent of dissenters working in the sciences. To most people, black holes are cutting edge facts of life with no serious second opinions afoot in any research field. So now when Hawking comes out and barely farts out a shadow of doubt about any aspect of a black hole then it must be a "big deal" as what people mostly hear and believe are mainstream mythos. Hawking represents the top tier in the pantheon of this mythos. To most this doubt seems "earth shattering."
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby Metryq » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:53 pm

DARK MATTER, MISSING PLANETS AND NEW COMETS by Tom Van Flandern

Prologue

Excitement filled the royal hall. Rumors had been circulating for months. The great blind sage was about to announce his latest findings. At last, the people would know the answer to one of the deepest scientific mysteries remaining on the planet—how light propagates.

Interest in science ran high on planet Krypton. The people had a deep and abiding desire to know about their origins and to understand the nature of the universe around them. So people of science were held in high regard, even more so than the governors. Some said that the great sage, the wisest of all scientists, was even more beloved by the people than the emperor. But then the emperor had that eccentric habit of wearing no clothes during public processions, which cost him some popularity.

Calela was there with her father. From school she knew full well that almost all the mysteries of the universe now had theories to explain them. But the one mystery which had eluded the best efforts of the planet’s top scientists concerned the propagation of light. For light seemed to move about in the manner of waves through some medium. Yet no trace of an actual medium had ever been found.

Most puzzling of all, when light came from a moving source, its speed of arrival was found to be no different than when it came from a stationary source. This was in sharp contrast to all non-light material entities, for which the speed of the source affected both the transit time and the measured speed upon arrival. But light must propagate in some truly wondrous way to behave so oddly.

And now, as Calela waited with the others, the great sage was about to reveal to the people how this was possible. “How did the great sage come to be so wise, father?” Calela asked.

“The people say it is because of his blindness,” her father replied. “Perhaps his blindness enables him to understand and reason about the wonders of nature more clearly than sighted people can, because of all the distractions which come with ordinary vision.”

“That is an odd thing,” Calela thought. “How strange that a man who can see no light has been able, by the powers of his mind alone, to understand and explain something about the nature of light which no sighted scientist has been able to do.”

Just then a hush came over the royal hall as the emperor himself appeared. Striding to the podium, he was greeted with vigorous, if brief, applause. In his introduction for the great sage, the emperor took pains to point out the support provided by the state to this marvelous man. “The state’s support,” he assured everyone, “is in no small measure responsible for the success story about to be told!”

All eyes and ears were now focused as one. The great sage himself appeared and was led slowly to the platform. The applause of anticipation and admiration greeted him. Calela and her father joined in. The great sage looked only a bit different than in the recent film about his life and accomplishments. As the applause finally subsided, the great sage began to speak. His words were wondrous.

Space itself, he revealed, was the medium in which light propagated. Bodies with mass were able to curve the space in which they resided, and to slow the rate of progress of time. The greater the mass, the greater the curvature of space and the slowing of clocks. When light came near a mass, its path would be bent because it must follow the curvature of space. Light passing by a mass would be delayed in transit because of the slowing of time.

He went on to explain that when a light source moved, the contraction of space and slowing of time which accompanied it ensured that the speed of light would be the same as measured by all observers, moving or not. “This is a very hard thing for me to understand,” Calela whispered to her father. But most of the people had begun to nod in approval of the great sage’s wisdom.

“He has indeed done it!” said someone nearby. “Everything about the propagation of light is now explained!” “Nature is even more complex and fascinating than we guessed!” said another. A feeling of great joy came over the royal hall as the solution to the mystery unfolded. The greatest remaining puzzle about the nature of the universe was a puzzle no longer.

As the realization dawned that the great sage had truly done what everyone had hoped for, a thunderous applause broke out. It continued uninterrupted for several minutes. Then the great sage was slowly led away. But the applause grew louder and continued even after the wise man had disappeared from view.

The emperor, applauding with the rest, returned briefly to the platform and spoke just a few more words as soon as the applause had died down a bit. “I will this day nominate the great sage for the Majestic Award, in recognition of this achievement!” The applause erupted again and continued until the people left the royal hall, for the Majestic Award was the most noble prize on the planet.

As the people dispersed, Calela asked her father, “Does everyone understand this new theory? Is there no one who doubts it?”

“What does it matter if we cannot all understand a theory, as long as the great sage and the elder wise men understand it and agree?” said Calela’s father. “Besides, even if he weren’t the great sage, who would be so unkind as to criticize the life’s work of a blind man?”
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby Morphix » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:24 pm

And when dissenters are mentioned it is always a carefully selected dissenter who "all" are agreed upon to be wrong. No review of qualified contemporary supporters of that dissenter's ideas. And of course, no question of whether what is taken to be evidence for whatever standard theory could possibly fit as well into another theory. Humans apparently can't help but create new religions, replete with dogma and priesthoods, and the evidence for that is overwhelming.
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby viscount aero » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:07 pm

Morphix wrote:And when dissenters are mentioned it is always a carefully selected dissenter who "all" are agreed upon to be wrong. No review of qualified contemporary supporters of that dissenter's ideas. And of course, no question of whether what is taken to be evidence for whatever standard theory could possibly fit as well into another theory. Humans apparently can't help but create new religions, replete with dogma and priesthoods, and the evidence for that is overwhelming.

Yes correct.
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Re: "No Black Holes" says Hawking!

Unread postby Jupiter05085 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:49 am

Good morning,
Speaking about Black Holes without solid understanding what mass and gravity is, just to mill the wind.
All Black Hole's theories are based on the fact that gravity was given to us by the God.
Let's image for a moment that gravity does not exist by itself and it is just side effect (somehow) of the Coulomb force. Some theories exist in support of that. How you could explain the fact that since the beginning of particle experiments the mass of ANY particle was never measured? All experiments measured charge to mass ratio!
Could Black Holes exists in this scenario? There are no place for doubt - definitely not.
My opinion that any conversation about Black Hole could be formulated in the question "Could we build something up to sky?" without mentioning a building material.
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