Recovered: Iron Sun Theories

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:45 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "SeaSmith"

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Longitudinal Magneto Dielectric: Impulse + Oscillating

Maybe some sort of resonance is established with the as broadband transmitter acting galactic core?

This might be a promising line of thought: longitudinal energy transfer over galactic distances!
I have been trying for a while to imagine longitudinal electromagnetic waves (not very succesful)...
and I don't believe in gravitons too..

~ Just for visualization sake:

Tesla, quoting a verse from Goethe's "Faust";

"The glow retreats, done is our day of toil; it yonder hastes, new fields of life exploring, ah, can no wing lift me from this soil... upon his track to follow, follow soaring?"
As he reached this last line of verse, Tesla was suddenly seized by an overwhelming vision. In it, he beheld a great vortex, whirling eternally in the sun and driving across the earth with its infinite power. Completely absorbed in this glory, he became catatonic and irresponsive ... to the great fear of his companions. His mind and body buzzing with the power of the vision, he suddenly blurted out, "see my motor here ... watch me reverse it".

http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/tesla.htm

Solar Resonance parts list:

Oscillating AL (Aetheric Longitudinal) power source

Resonant receiver ( vortical coil, transducer, spherical bell) core

Double-layer (conductor-dielectric-conductor) spheroid shell, configured as Electrostatic Transformer/Capacitor and

Tuned as re-Radiator of Thermal, EM and AL emanations.

Power W- to Potential V- to Power W

Process should be Scalar:

for ex.
As EM RF longitudinal propagation waves can be modulated visa an amplitude or frequency signal (transverse) waves,
so AL radiation would be carriers of EM signal modulations.

RC,
]The afore mentioned ocean, microwave cooking and pulsed DC welding can be good partial analogies as well.

~

Last edited by SeaSmith on Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:56 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Michael Mozina"

Yes, I would have to agree with you Michael. If you want to know how the sun works, just look at Birkelands work, and take it literally.

A metal(center hollow, thick wall)sun with a magnetic field that is internally generated by a current flow in a solenoidal direction.

Maybe we should think of it as a magnetic spin orientation in very heavy plasma of some sort, Iron and Nickel might do the trick. Uranium and Plutonium could do the trick and release energy in the pinch. Heavier materials like neutron materials are also viable and all of these heavy materials could spin as one moving heavy filament that is pinched together by the filament, kind of like Michael's composite image. In such a case a supernova might result if the energy of the sun were cut off, and the heavier elements went flying into the shell.

Now heres that part where I'm having a little problem.

Assuming a radial electrical field(inward moving electrons), you basically have to say for every electron that goes out, one has to go in....

You basically have to look at the sun as a conductor, kind of like one atom in the wire, or one part of the electrical plumbing. It heats up just like the atoms in the wire heat up from the current flow in the wire. I would think it would create a flow pattern around the sun, in much the same way that Birkeland filaments flow through the earth. The poles would likely carry most of the current flow.

How strong would the field have to be to power something like a quasar or some other high output object that is a "star". It seems like the outward flow would be so strong as to overwhelm the inward flow, especially with a disc around it.

I think this is why I personally favor some sort of dense plasma material like a neutron core. It can hold at lot of angular spin momentum which is generated by the current flow through sun.

Thats why I propose a resonance system where the sun receives longitudinal waves(not affected by ordinary matter) from the galactic center, and transforms them into outward flowing electrons(electricity) kinda like a radio antenna works.

If you can explain to me what the longitudinal waves are made of so that nobody can accuse of of practicing metaphysics and we can test the concept in a lab, and watch it work, I'll probably end up championing your cause. I see a lot of merit in treating the sun as a constant stream of electrons and/or a constant stream of protons. I have however leaned on the mainstream pretty hard for practicing dogma that is based on metaphysics. I'd therefore hate to be accused of believing in my own brand of untestable metaphysics. Are you describing some sort of Bose Einstein condensate of of subatomic particles (like electrons)?

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Michael Mozina"

Interesting discussion. Could it be possible that Telsa Impulse Longitudinal Magneto Electric Energy could be providing the outward radiating pressure that you are searching for? Since I just found out that Tesla made and tested the first Z Pinch devices years ago and discovered Longitudinal Energy from said machine.



If the sun is a big Z Pinch and solid as you claim then the Tesla Z Pinch is even more critical to the equation as the Z Pinch they run now does not entirely resemble Teslas. You are a Birkeland purist. I am a Tesla Purist. The solid sphere is consistent with both experiments run by Tesla or Birkeland. I am now at the point where I cannot think of electricity unless I think of the four attributes of electric theory as described by Dollard when speaking of Tesla. Now realizing this just today has brought me even closer to the actual model. Tesla is the key and his Z Pinch experiments provide much more fundamental proof that we need to do a thorough research of his work to fully understand the Z Pinch, the Sun, and the EU.

I'm also a big fan of Tesla, but I'm not as familiar with his work as I should be. I think I'll take the time to read through your thread and bring myself a little bit up to speed.

I must say that I like all this input and I like being expose to all these new ideas. I really feel like these are really exciting times for astronomy, and so many possibilities remain open to be explored. It's really fun. To me, this is what science is all about.

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "lk"

- I second whoever said maybe a conductor will come along [not like the sun] who can get all these ideas organized.
- I'd like to see someone [like Michael Gmirkin] boil all these theories down and compare them side by side.
- For example, here are some aspects of a few theories I know of.
Wal Thornhill: [astronomer]
Sun is mostly isodense plasma with small dense core.
Sun acts like a vacuum tube in anode glow mode.
Current is electrons entering, protons exiting.
Space is a neutrino sea.
There are no neutron stars; pulsars are discharging capacitors? or ?

Oliver Maunel: [astronomer]
Sun and solar system is result of supernova explosion remnants re-coalescing.
Sun has neutron star core, with stratified shells of iron, calcium?, neon, helium and hydrogen.
Neutrons constantly sublimate? off the core and become protons in the solar wind. [Where does he say the electrons go?]
Sun is not isodense.

Michael Mozina: [background? website]
similar ideas to O.M. with more emphasis on electrical forces.
[I don't remember a lot of details of your, MM]

Upriver: [electrical engineer? + sonoluminescence]
cross between Thornhill & Manuel
Sun is isodense with iron surface under the photosphere.
No neutron stars.
Solar output powered by Tesla longitudinal waves from galactic core.
Correas' aether energy theory at aetherometry.com.

Well, you get the idea. You can all carry on in a similar manner if you like. I favor Upriver's ideas mostly so far, though I'm a long way from understanding a lot of details.

Are you folks self-organizing enough to handle your assignments?

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "biknewb"

- I second whoever said maybe a conductor will come along [not like the sun] who can get all these ideas organized.
- I'd like to see someone [like Michael Gmirkin] boil all these theories down and compare them side by side.
- For example, here are some aspects of a few theories I know of.
Wal Thornhill: [astronomer]
Sun is mostly isodense plasma with small dense core.
Sun acts like a vacuum tube in anode glow mode.
Current is electrons entering, protons exiting.
Space is a neutrino sea.
There are no neutron stars; pulsars are discharging capacitors? or ?

Oliver Maunel: [astronomer]
Sun and solar system is result of supernova explosion remnants re-coalescing.
Sun has neutron star core, with stratified shells of iron, calcium?, neon, helium and hydrogen.
Neutrons constantly sublimate? off the core and become protons in the solar wind. [Where does he say the electrons go?]
Sun is not isodense.

Michael Mozina: [background? website]
similar ideas to O.M. with more emphasis on electrical forces.
[I don't remember a lot of details of your, MM]

Upriver: [electrical engineer? + sonoluminescence]
cross between Thornhill & Manuel
Sun is isodense with iron surface under the photosphere.
No neutron stars.
Solar output powered by Tesla longitudinal waves from galactic core.
Correas' aether energy theory at aetherometry.com.

Well, you get the idea. You can all carry on in a similar manner if you like. I favor Upriver's ideas mostly so far, though I'm a long way from understanding a lot of details.

Are you folks self-organizing enough to handle your assignments?

Well, lk, you may not think of yourself as the conductor, but you certainly made a good start assembling the choir.

[Off Topic soapbox - against my better judgement ] Perhaps a large part of the difficulty in the proliferation of so many theorists, each with their own lexicon of technical jargon to first learn and de-cipher, is the Tower of Babel thing. A multitude of voices, each speaking their own terminology, and the message just ends up floundering in a sea of noise. I am reminded of the Taoist viewpoint (paraphrased): the Tao that can be spoken is not the (real/true/authentic) Tao.

Maybe one day will come when the chorus of voices will find their choir-master and the dischordance will transform to some semblance of harmonious music to both choir and audience. And, no, it's not the notion of something akin to a messiah to which I refer. [/soapbox]

My feelings exactly. It may be a necessity for an original thinker to use terminology of his/her own, but for someone trying to compare ideas it takes a lot of effort to keep mind juggling the different terms without messing up. ....they're going to take me away ha ha hi hi to the funny farm.....

regards

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "junglelord"

Meyl on the very subject of linguistics and older text and modern terms and the need to have a full modern theory that will by necessity require new technical language. Maybe a full understanding of the full theory of electricity with a full research of history will provide a clear path for honour of the ancients and a path into the future with a cohesive technical language.

My Tesla research has taken me back to Plato! We need to research history,nature and electicity with the diligence of Tesla and recognize that Birkeland and his history is just one piece of the missing puzzle! It is clear that from Plato to Kelvin the Vortex theory was considered! Lord Kelvin wrote a paper about the vortex of longitudinal energy as discovered by Tesla! Tesla built and studied the effects of the first Z Pinch Device, his Magnifying Trasmitter with resistive discharge capacitors as both primary and secondary with Spiral Coils that built up incredible voltages with no current in the coil ie without magnetic induction and in the process released Neutrinos and Coronal Whitefire as well as transmitted DC wireless and a host of other electric phenomenon.

Lets put that in the EU pipe and smoke it.

"as the potential vortex turns into waves or the wave into potential vortices, the smells are formed during this transition, and smells are smoke or fog. But fog is the transition of waves into vortices, the transition of the vortex into waves however smoke".

Plato here provides an indisputable and conclusive interpretation of the fundamental field equation. In this equation the potential vortex acts as damping term in the wave equation, what in the case of waves rolling up to vortices will show to the observer in the way that the electromagnetic waves and therefore also the light will be damped. We say, the visibility gets worse and speak of fog. If the damping phenomenon disappears again, as the potential vortices break up, then Plato speaks of smoke.

Numerous ancient texts, which until now only could be "interpreted" philosophically, in this way turn out to be a rational textbook description of natural scientific phenomena.

They anyway only get readable and understandable for the general public with the modern technical terms.

Plato (talk of Timaios about the formation of the world)
description concerning the perception of smell:
"...as water (the potential vortex) turns into air (waves) or air (the
wave) into water (potential vortices), the smells are formed during
this transition, and smells are smoke or fog. But fog is the transition
of air (waves) into water (vortices), the transition of water (vortex)
into air (waves) however smoke"
changed translation with the technical terms:
air______ = ____wave
water = ___ potential vortex
fire ______ = ____ eddy current
As a consequence:
smell is vortex information

If the newly discovered vortex phenomenon of the vortex of the electric field exists, then it will be possible to practically use it. Whereas we still think about possibilities for technical usage, there by all means exists the possibility, that nature already is successfully using the vortex for a long time. We should look precise at things. We can only learn of nature!

Remarkable about the passage of Plato is not only the fact, that the potential vortex already was known for two and a half thousand years and was taken into consideration for an interpretation, but also the realization of Plato, that during the described transition the smells form. Smell thus would be a vortex property!

After all vortices are able to bind information as can be inferred from the basic principle of cybernetics. With this vortex property and the statement of Plato smell obviously would be nothing else than pure information which by potential vortices is stored, distributed and eventually is caught by the hair cells for smell of the nose.

For the majority of the people a theory only wins its sense by the practical applicability, and therefore we'll have to develop and present a technical usage on the basis of the vortex theory.

_________________
Peace, Live Long and Prosper.

Man lives in the sunlit world of what he believes to be reality. But there is, unseen by most, an underworld, a place that is just as real, but not as brightly lit... a Darkside."

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Raphael"

There are no neutron stars; pulsars are discharging capacitors? or ?

I like that one lk.

or maybe the neutron stars are the binary Cathode to our Sun which plays the role of the Anode?

I like to see the 4 inner metal planets as the capacitors.

What role do the outer gas planets then play?
What would their role be within an electrified solar system or battery storage system?

just pondering...


namaste
_________________
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/about/

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "junglelord"

Meyl has a model for the Neutron Star.

The close relationship of longitudinal sound waves with the oscillations of contraction of thermally heated matter becomes particularly clear for ultrasound, where the arising heat in the inside of the body which is exposed to sound can be measured directly.

The fundamental difference consists of the fact that the produced sound waves not only have the same frequency, but also the same phase, what needs not be the case for the temperature. The apparently uncoordinated occurring oscillations of size of the temperature, which as a rule occupy more space if the intensity increases, form a "thermal noise".

The oscillation of size with the same phase is not realizable at all in a spatial formation of particles, with one exception, the case that all particles expand and afterwards again contract simultaneously and in the same time. We can observe such a synchronization of the pulsation oscillations of all elementary vortices in the case of a pulsar. For us a pulsar looks like a "lighthouse" in space which shines with a fixed frequency.

In reality it as well can concern a constantly shining sun, which carries out a synchronized, thermal oscillation of size, like a gigantic low-frequency loudspeaker. During the phase of contraction of the star its emitted light stays back. To us the pulsar looks dark. In addition the field strength is extremely increased and the light becomes correspondingly slow.

During the phase of expansion the conditions are reversed and we observe a light flash. Exactly the pulsar unambiguously confirms the here presented theory of the variable, field dependent speed of light.

The well-known fact that the microcosm represents a copy of the macrocosm, already suggests that each atom is capable of the same oscillation of size as a pulsar: if next to the oscillating atom a resting one is placed, then does this one see a smaller field during the phase of contraction because of the increasing distance. It hence becomes bigger itself. If the pulsating neighbouring atom afterwards expands, it however becomes smaller. The at first resting atom in this way becomes a "pulsar" oscillating with opposite phase. The oscillating atom has stimulated the neighbouring atom as well to an oscillation of size, and this process will be repeated with the closest neighbouring atom.

We speak of heat conduction. To which extent the average distance between neighbouring atoms is influenced while a material is heated, solely depends on the structure of the atomic lattice. For matter with a
fixed lattice according to expectation a smaller heat expansion will occur, as for the unordered structure of gases, in which we find confirmed well-known relations.

In a for potential vortices characteristic property sound waves and thermal waves of contraction correspond:

The propagation of potential vortex fields takes place as a longitudinal wave.

In this point vortex fields clearly differ from the transverse propagating electromagnetic waves!

Analogous to the sound wave vortices in space are propagating as longitudinal waves. In this context is pointed to numerous effects.

Examples for the technical and biological use of these standing
waves are the energy transmission of Nikola Tesla as well as the
nerve conduction, which functions in a corresponding manner. If
the same vortices, which man uses for conduction of information,
are emitted by technical devices, then biological reactions can't be
excluded anymore and worries with regard to "electrosmog" seem
to be justified.

_________________
Peace, Live Long and Prosper.

Man lives in the sunlit world of what he believes to be reality. But there is, unseen by most, an underworld, a place that is just as real, but not as brightly lit... a Darkside."

Last edited by junglelord on Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "StefanR"

Lets put that in the EU pipe and smoke it.

I had my fill a few years ago but the pipe is still full. But I'm afraid what Plato said, that the smoke of my EU pipe is forming fog in my head. Though sometimes a plasma MHD wave goes by and thus gives me a small glimpse of the deepest of possibillities.
_________________
"And surely struggle against him we must in every possible way who would annihilate knowledge and reason and mind, and yet ventures to speak confidently about anything."
Plato, Phaedo

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Sun, Iron also Reply with quote
OP "SeaSmith"

...boil all these theories down and compare them side by side.

At this stage, i think we are doing good just to present them in one (very good) forum.
It's going to be a ongoing joint effort to comprehensively analyse and compare, let alone to integrate the many concepts.
i do reckon there will be some integration. ie: the sun is a quite complex set of sub-systems, which holisticly function as yet another set complexities.

One solar model is not likely to elaborate all,
imhhho

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "biknewb"

Meyl has a model for the Neutron Star.

In reality it as well can concern a constantly shining sun, which carries out a synchronized, thermal oscillation of size, like a gigantic low-frequency loudspeaker. During the phase of contraction of the star its emitted light stays back. To us the pulsar looks dark. In addition the field strength is extremely increased and the light becomes correspondingly slow.

During the phase of expansion the conditions are reversed and we observe a light flash. Exactly the pulsar unambiguously confirms the here presented theory of the variable, field dependent speed of light.

I have some problems with this model.
Would it work for the observed wide frequency range of pulsars?
The loudspeaker model implies intermodulation distortion in the light pulses. Contraction causing a redshift and expansion a blueshift of the emitted light. This should be easily recognizable in pulsar observations. I suspect this is not observed.
It also suggests a symmetrical pulse shape, which I know is not what pulsar signals look like.

Intermodulation distortion is what normal single speakers suffer. This is reasonably solved with the 2-way or 3-way speakerbox.

regards

[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "junglelord"

I agree. I mearly thought it was an interesting alternative theory from someone that seems to have a better grasp of the true fundamentals of a full electric theory. I see a disconnect between his advanced experience and understanding of electricity and his knowledge of plasma and the EU theory. I am the person to bring these two ideas together for a more synergist whole.
_________________
Peace, Live Long and Prosper.

Man lives in the sunlit world of what he believes to be reality. But there is, unseen by most, an underworld, a place that is just as real, but not as brightly lit... a Darkside."

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "StefanR"

I have some problems with this model.
Would it work for the observed wide frequency range of pulsars?
The loudspeaker model implies intermodulation distortion in the light pulses. Contraction causing a redshift and expansion a blueshift of the emitted light. This should be easily recognizable in pulsar observations. I suspect this is not observed.
It also suggests a symmetrical pulse shape, which I know is not what pulsar signals look like.

Intermodulation distortion is what normal single speakers suffer. This is reasonably solved with the 2-way or 3-way speakerbox.

In reality it as well can concern a constantly shining sun

I agree. But it is also that it only is offered as a tentative solution. Personally I think the Thunderbolts knowledge is closer to a more probable 'neutron star' solution.
But on the other hand quantization of the redshift (in general) might have some relationship to the field-strenghts locally present.
_________________
"And surely struggle against him we must in every possible way who would annihilate knowledge and reason and mind, and yet ventures to speak confidently about anything."
Plato, Phaedo

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "lk"

Let me organize my previous post better, then I'll invite everyone to reply.

WT: astronomer or physicist?
OM: astronomer?
WT1a: Stars and some planets form in electrical z-pinches in star-forming regions of galaxies.
WT1b: Smaller stars, planets etc form when high-amperage galactic electric currents over-stress larger stars, causing them to fission.
OM1a: Conventional view of nebular accretion disk formation of star systems.
OM1b: Solar system formed from neutron star and accretion disk from former star that went supernova.
WT2: Sun is mostly isodense plasma with small dense core.
OM2: Sun is stratified with neutron star core and shells of iron, calcium?, neon, helium and hydrogen.
WT3: Sun acts like a vacuum tube in anode glow mode.
OM3: Somewhat similar view of electrical effects in the solar atmosphere.
WT4: Electric current at the sun is electrons entering from galactic current and protons exiting as solar wind.
OM4: Neutrons constantly sublimate? off the core and become protons in the solar wind. [Where does he say the electrons go?]
WT5: Space is a neutrino sea.
OM5: Conventional view of relativity & quantum mechanics & empty spacetime?
WT6: There are no neutron stars; pulsars are discharging capacitors or the like.
OM6: Neutron stars exist within some stars and as pulsars.
WT7: There are no black holes, no big bangs.
OM7: Agrees.

Up: electrical engineer
Up1a: Stars form in z-pinches from pulsars.
Up1b: Same as WT?
Up2: Sun is mostly isodense with solid iron surface under the photosphere.
Up3: Sun is like vac tube in anode glow mode with thermionic emission?
Up4: Tesla longitudinal waves from galactic core produce solar energy and solar wind?
Up5: Space: Correas' aether energy theory at aetherometry.com
Up6: There are no neutron stars; pulsars are z-pinches.
Up7: Agrees

MM: background? + website
MM1ab: Same as OM?
MM2: Sun is neutron star core with mostly iron volcanic surface under photosphere.
MM3: ?
MM4: ?
MM5: ?
MM6: Same as OM?
MM7: Agrees?

I invite our other experts, Millennium, Junglelord, Stephan R et al, and lesser amateurs like me to write down which claims you think are right for each of those 7 or 8 points regarding the sun etc. And Upriver and Mozina, if I misrepresented your claims, it would be good to have my errors corrected.

This should also include everyone's reasons for each position. I included Thornhill's reasons in a recent post of mine. Can you all give references to links for your reasons for your positions?

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "StefanR"

So if I'm correct the questions would be:

1. How do stars/planets form?
2. What is composition of the sun?
3. How does the sun function?
4. How is the sun powered?
5. How is space percieved?
6. Do neutron stars exist?
7. Are Blackholes/Bigbang real?


Is that right?
_________________
"And surely struggle against him we must in every possible way who would annihilate knowledge and reason and mind, and yet ventures to speak confidently about anything."
Plato, Phaedo