Recovered: Iron Sun Theories

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=24089

I just wanted to mention this article. IMO it bolsters the case for heavy elements within suns. In a mass separated solar model, it would not be surprising to see a carbon rich atmospheres on stars. It all depends on which elements a star is rich in, and whether or not it's currently electrically active.

Funny, I'd just posed a question about that article a couple hours ago on this other thread (in relation to the HR diagram, with an electrical slant, and the heavy element variability in the solar wind, from another prior article)... Would be interested to know if I'm completely off base, or at least asking the right questions (even if I'm wrong)?

(A New Look at the HR Diagram)
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... .php?t=491

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Michael Mozina"

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=24089

I just wanted to mention this article. IMO it bolsters the case for heavy elements within suns. In a mass separated solar model, it would not be surprising to see a carbon rich atmospheres on stars. It all depends on which elements a star is rich in, and whether or not it's currently electrically active.

Funny, I'd just posed a question about that article a couple hours ago on this other thread (in relation to the HR diagram, with an electrical slant, and the heavy element variability in the solar wind, from another prior article)... Would be interested to know if I'm completely off base, or at least asking the right questions (even if I'm wrong)?

(A New Look at the HR Diagram)
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... .php?t=491

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin

I'll read through that link today. Thanks. IMO the variability of the heavy elements in the solar wind is due to the variability of the coronal loop activity. When the sun is experiencing a great deal of electrical activity in the solar atmosphere, it's more apt to rip heavy elements off the surface and from the lower atmosphere and hurl them out into space. Most of the solar wind is in the form of hydrogen and helium because these are the lightest elements and the easiest elements to accelerate. They are also form the outermost plasma layers of the sun. Occasionally heavier materials like silicon and iron are flung out into space by CME's. Some of the heavier elements from the lower atmosphere and surface can achieve escape velocity during these discharge events. Most of them rain back to the surface in the form of coronal rain, but some of them flow out toward the solar sheath. My guess it that those heavy solar wind particles are the most highly charged heavier elements and have been stripped of several different orbital electrons.

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Pluto"

Hello All

Turbulence within the solar envelope is created by many ways. One is via the z-pinch within the core and solar envelope. The convectional waves would pick up heavier elements and pump them out into space. We would expect heavier elements than Fe, even though they have a short life within the solar envelope to be ejected out.
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[bboyer]

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Pluto"

Hello All

SOLAR ABUNDANCE OF ELEMENTS FROM NEUTRON-CAPTURE CROSS SECTIONS.

http://www.omatumr.com/abstracts2005/LunarAbstract.pdf

The mass fractionation relationship defined by sproducts
in the photosphere (FIG 2) yields O/C = 10
for the bulk Sun. It also shows Fe, O, Ni and Si as
abundant elements in the interior of the Sun. Our results
may explain why heavy elements are abundant in
impulsive solar flares [10] and resolve a long-standing
difference between the solar photospheric value of
O/C = 2 and calculated abundances of He-burning
products [11].

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[bboyer]

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "upriver"

Thermionic emission.

"The phenomenon was initially reported in 1873 by Daniel Lordan in Britain. While doing work on charged objects, Lordan discovered that a red-hot iron sphere with a negative charge would lose its charge (discharging electrons into vacuum). He also found that this did not happen if the sphere had a positive charge. He didn't understand what any of this meant.[citation needed] Other early contributors included Hittorf (1869–1883), Goldstein (1885), and Elster and Geitel (1882–1889)."
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[bboyer]

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Michael Mozina"

http://quake.stanford.edu/~sasha/MOVIES/movies.html

http://quake.stanford.edu/~sasha/MOVIES/mov7.mpg

Compare that image to this image of a tsunami on the photosphere with a "rigid structure" to the left of the center of the tsunami.

http://thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/vquake1.avi

And here is a paper that Dr. Kosovichev wrote back in 2005:

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0510111

I think you'll find this green Doppler image to be as interesting as I did. Keep in mind that Kosovichev's heliosiesmology work has revealed a "stratification subsurface" at about .995R where the speed of sound increases dramatically either due to an increase in temperature or an increase in density. Note the "glimmering" effect in both images that is due to the movements and flow patterns of the sound waves on the photosphere. Notice to that the center structure in the green Doppler image is spewing heavy material that is "sinking down" along the sides of the center structure, and the whole thing appears to be taking place underneath of the photosphere. IMO we're looking at volcanic activity from the solar surface. Just as the "rigid structure" appears to be under the photosphere in Kosovichev's orange tsunami video, so to, this volcanic "structure" seems to be located underneath the photosphere, mostly likely from Kosovichev's "stratification subsurface".

I've emailed Dr. Kosovichev my thoughts about this video and we've exchanged a number of friendly emails over the last few weeks, but for obvious reasons he's very hesitant to discuss this video with me in any length.

FYI, I have the greatest respect for Dr. Kosovichev's attitude and particularly for his work in heliosiesmology. I believe that his heliosiesmology techniques work exactly as advertised. Unfortunately for Kosovichev, I think they work just a little too well and it's making his life a bit complicated at the moment. I would however recommend that we follow his work and keep an open mind toward is work. He's one of the few "mainstreamers" that have consistently responded to my emails and has answered my questions to the best of his political ability. IMO he's one of the few folks on the inside that isn't beyond hope IMO, and may in fact be leaning our way a bit. From my conversations with him since 2005, as a pure scientist, I believe that he's very open minded and very fair. He's definitely quite brilliant in his ability to use mathematics to solve real life physics problems. IMO his heliosiesmology techniques are absolutely awesome and absolutely accurate.

IMO, this green Doppler image demonstrates the highly volcanic nature of the "stratification subsurface" layer of the sun. The crust of the sun is much like the surface of any planet, but the sun's crust is hotter, and it's surface is more actively volcanic, and more prone to on ongoing recycling process. Just as the crust of Venus is more volcanic than the Earth and it's surface is recycled more frequently than the Earth's crust, the sun's crust is highly active, and it's recycled more quickly than a planetary surface crust.

There are two basic surface change processes at work on the sun, volcanic events, and electrical erosion processes. The volcanic processes seem to be the big movers and shakers when it comes to modifications to the surface crust of the sun.

Keep in mind that even if you don't subscribe to the notion of a solid crust on the sun, this video would definitely suggest that there is a more dense layer of plasma sitting under the photosphere at about .995R where Kosovichev's work suggests that the speed of sound changes rather noticeably.

[bboyer]

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: solar surface fractal sizes Reply with quote
OP "kovil"

At .995R of the sun, it's very hot, and also very heavy gravity (compared to here). and so the state of the material is plasitic or viscus fluid, not solid in the sense of the earth's crust or mantle. Everything flows? be it slowly, from the heat and the gravity. That is why the change in the speed of sound, as above the .995R it is more gasseous or plasmatic, not the more fluidlike plastisicity of peanut butter, or cornstarch with a little water. The Sun is more like peanut butter surrounded by an atmosphere of marshmallow fluff ! LOL (mmm, lunchtime)

It may be almost more of a thermocline differential? as to why the speed of sound changes, as to the resulting density change.

Yes, it's how we interpret the data!
Gathering the data is the primary mission.
These are exciting times!

The solar surface movie in your other post (in another topic), I see the background solar surface dancing like the flames in hell, or sprites, or small flames dancing on a campfire log. They leap and play.
This leads to the thought of; what mathematics determines the size of the solar surface flame sprites? Are they a fractal determination? Is it more of a proportionality to spherical total size? Fire seems to also have a scaleability as plasma does, and the solar surface small leaping 'flames' have a similar proportion in size to log fires here at home. Like the small flames on a bed of embers and coals, it has the same element of proportion to the surface of the sun in the satellite movies.

"Adjacency is where the fractal ends."

[bboyer]

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "biknewb"

http://quake.stanford.edu/~sasha/MOVIES/mov7.mpg

Very convincing "rigid" structure. I still find it hard to imagine what I really see in this movie. The description says:

dark green - motion toward us, light green - motion from us; Vmin=-1000 m/s, Vmax=1500 m/s; this movie shows both oscillations and flows in the sunspot

When light areas move down and dark areas move up, the 3d volcano I seem to see is probably an illusion.

regards

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Michael Mozina"

http://quake.stanford.edu/~sasha/MOVIES/mov7.mpg

Very convincing "rigid" structure.

It's all relative. Compared to the longevity of structures in the photosphere (something like 10 minutes), the layer at .995R (be it a dense plasma or a solid) is considerably more 'rigid' than the plasma of the photosphere.

I still find it hard to imagine what I really see in this movie. The description says:

dark green - motion toward us, light green - motion from us; Vmin=-1000 m/s, Vmax=1500 m/s; this movie shows both oscillations and flows in the sunspot

When light areas move down and dark areas move up, the 3d volcano I seem to see is probably an illusion.

regards

Well, if you noticed, the center of that flowing structure it's considerably darker than the areas directly around the center area. This suggests to me that the plasma at that point is moving up towards us at the core, or center of that flow point, and it's flowing away from us as it flows back down along the sides. Anything "could be" an optical illusion, but this does not mean that this particular Doppler image is an optical illusion. We can see the tsunami wave traverse the photosphere in the orange Doppler image while still observing a rigid set of features to the left of the center of the tsunami. Here too in the green video we see flowing features that seem to be located under the photosphere, rather than above it.

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:43 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "upriver"

There are two basic surface change processes at work on the sun, volcanic events, and electrical erosion processes. The volcanic processes seem to be the big movers and shakers when it comes to modifications to the surface crust of the sun.

When you say volcano, you mean a hole in the solar crust that is spewing molten iron????

Here is a picture of the suns surface, maybe you could point out a feature that you thought was a volcano in this picture.

(click to view larger image)
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[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Michael Mozina"

When you say volcano, you mean a hole in the solar crust that is spewing molten iron????

I presume is spewing a lot of different elements including sulfur. FYI, the SERTS data reveals an increase in Nickel and Sulfur emissions during periods of high surface activity.

Here is a picture of the suns surface, maybe you could point out a feature that you thought was a volcano in this picture.

I don't see any obvious volcanic activity in that picture, I only see coronal loops traversing the atmosphere, and some obvious examples of coronal rain. Occasionally when watching SOHO 195A images we can observe a very dark surface region that suddenly "flares up" and becomes highly electrically active. Those events are volcanic type events IMO. I'll see if I can't round up some standard 195A SOHO (green) images along with some 195A running difference (GREY) images of one of these flare ups to demonstrate what I mean. I recall seeing one of these events several weeks ago. I'll see if I can't find the video in the archives for you. There's also a TRACE image I've seen of an event that I believe is most likely due to a surface eruptions, and the Sea Horse flare is another event I believe was probably volcanic in origin.

That green Doppler image by Kosovichev is also imaging a volcanic event IMO. I think some further videos would be helpful. I'll see what I can round up.

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "lk"

Just as the crust of Venus is more volcanic than the Earth and it's surface is recycled more frequently than the Earth's crust, the sun's crust is highly active, and it's recycled more quickly than a planetary surface crust.

Where is Earth's crust getting recycled? Do you assume that the sea floors are subducting at ocean trenches etc? I don't think there's any significant evidence for that.

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Michael Mozina"

Just as the crust of Venus is more volcanic than the Earth and it's surface is recycled more frequently than the Earth's crust, the sun's crust is highly active, and it's recycled more quickly than a planetary surface crust.

Where is Earth's crust getting recycled? Do you assume that the sea floors are subducting at ocean trenches etc? I don't think there's any significant evidence for that.

First of all, I would say that was sloppy verbiage on my part as it relates to the Earth's crust which is much more stable than say Venus or the Sun. The sun's crust does not have the longevity were used to seeing here on Earth. it's undergoing constant volcanic processes and constant electrical processes that change the terrain rather rapidly IMO.

I assume that even techtonic plates on Earth will sometimes slide under one another, probably more along Mountain ranges rather than on the sea floor, but I suppose it depends on how the various plates some together. Plate techtonics aren't my field of expertise however.

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Michael Mozina"

When you say volcano, you mean a hole in the solar crust that is spewing molten iron????

http://serts.gsfc.nasa.gov/results/spectral.shtml

Before I get into the other images I want to present, let's take a quick look at some of the spectral differences between quiet sun regions and active sun regions. According to the spectral data, the primary change in elemental composition in an active region is related to increases in Nickel ions and increases in Sulfur ions. That would suggest to me that it's spewing mostly Iron, Nickel and Sulfur, but it's probably got most of various the elements mixed into the magma.

[bboyer]

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: Imag size reminder... Reply with quote
OP "davesmith_au"

Giday all, first let me say I love seeing this subject get the airing it is, and I would not want to stifle this conversation for a minute, regardless of my thoughts on what makes up our sun. In fact, I don't have that many thoughts of my own which is why I'm not more than an interested observer...

Anyhow, the picture Upriver posted back up there is a real beauty, and I can fully understand the desire to post the largest available of such a great picture. However it has been brought to my attention of late, that not only some of our US and Aussie brethren don't have access to broadband, but we also desire to get our messages through to the largest possible audience, and if the countries which have come up on my site over the last few days are any indication, we do.

But some places simply do not have access to high-speed at all, and the nature of the phpBB which this forum runs on causes great time-out problems for many folk, once large pics are posted profusely.

Please see Rules and Guidelines, and I think we all should play a part in attempting to make this a better experience for everyone, not just the well-connected.

Again I stress I don't wish to quash this discussion at all, just would recommend posting smaller 'byte sized' teaser pics, and a link to the large beautiful ones, there's plenty of free hosts at which this can be done.

Cheers, Dave Smith.
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