Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by KickLaBuka » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:28 am

The first goal is to explain the Universe and its structures in terms of the known properties of matter and physics, which, of course, includes electromagnetism.
Agreed. The corellation is at Z=1 and beyond. Anything closer gets too many variables involved. Z=1 and beyond will give us a determination of distance and axial flow at the same time as emission spectra. This is my hypothesis, to explain the universe.
And when that has been completely and utterly exhausted, then, and only then, attempt to explain various possibilities, but even so, the various possibilities, need to be explained based on phenomena that has already been observed & measured, whether in the laboratory or the field (in space).
Agreed. My approach does not impinge on observed & measured. It avoids assumptions so that possibilities are moot.
Science is about explanation & description, but first you have to have an exhibit.
I challenge anyone to set up a matrix from the observations at Z=1 and beyond. Not from the calculations of distance, but leaving distance as a variable in the matrix.
That is where "modern" astronomy went terribly wrong, they "crafted" mathematical speculations based on very broad principles of gravity (that may or may not even be right to begin with), and then went out on "snipe hunts" to find these speculated objects, and suffered repeated bouts of 'confirmational bias'.

And now that outsiders have called them on out on their error, "modern" astronomy can't bear the thought of admitting error.
yup. I have a thread right now challenging General and Special Relativity on Space Dot Com. They're already trying to move the thread.

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by solrey » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:34 am

Hey Anaconda. Good comments.

I think that sometime around the early years of the industrial revolution, the idea that humans are smarter than nature really started taking off with a vengence. If we say this is how nature SHOULD be, then damnit, that's how it HAS to be, regardless of any evidence from nature to the contrary.

In cosmology specifically, I really feel that when J.P.Morgan discovered that Tesla had no plans to meter individuals energy use from Wardenclyffe Tower, the whole idea of an electrically active universe was essentially "blackballed", just like Tesla was personally blackballed. Whoever controls the purse-strings controls the direction of scientific research. Any research that would develop technology that might diminish the control that the Powers That Be hold over humanity, is not going to receive funding.

GR theory is no threat to their power. Those scientists get all the research funds they want.
EU theory is a huge threat to their power. Those scientists get very little, if any funding.

As Benjamin Disraeli said:
"For you see, the world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes."
“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
Nikola Tesla

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by nick c » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:48 am

hi Anaconda,
Thanks for the excellent and understandable analysis.
See, here in this abstract, we see the use of the mathematical concept "singularity". A "singularity" is an infinite density in an infinitely small volume. "Infinitity" by definition can't be quantified. And, indeed, some mathematicians/astronomers will allow that a "singularity" is undefined.
They are doing nothing more than mathematical ledgermain. Infinite density in an infinitely small volume can't be quanitified and undefined is meaningless.
I seem to remember a discussion on the BAUT forum, one of the experts there scoffed at someone who brought up this very point, saying something to the effect that no physicist actually believed that a black hole was really a singularity (point). But then, if a black hole is not in reality a singularity, what has stopped the gravitational collapse? It would seem that the theory demands that a black hole would be continually shrinking in size, non stop? All that matter compressed into an area smaller than a proton and getting smaller in perpetuum?
In your experience, how do the black hole high priests answer the following question, or is it even the right question:
As matter is compressed and the electrons become seperate from the atomic nuclei, why does not the electrostatic repulsion of the protons prevent collapse?

nick c

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by KickLaBuka » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:23 am

As matter is compressed and the electrons become seperate from the atomic nuclei, why does not the electrostatic repulsion of the protons prevent collapse?
I do not agree with GR or SMBH's but I will offer a contra-argument for the sake of argument. I think that the repulsion of protons in a nucleus is non-existent. That two capacitors once touching will not repel at all. But dealing with gravitational collapse, it is indeed hocus pocus. I'm scared to admit that I too believe in a conspiracy of power. It only makes sense when these people are confronted with logic. How could anyone deny logic if they don't have a deeper motivation?

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by Anaconda » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:24 pm

Hi nick c:

In one sense, I have to fess up that I didn't drive them to explain the collapse in perpetuum. But what I gathered was that one can not know what is happening inside the so-called "event horizon".

nick, another good question:
why does not the electrostatic repulsion of the protons prevent collapse?
I should have asked that question, alas I did not.

KickLaBuka wrote:
How could anyone deny logic if they don't have a deeper motivation?
Self-interest or self-justification is very powerful, especially if you've had success with it in the past.

These people in the "modern" astronomy community are very tight. Think about it, our community, if one can call it that, is small with no "indoctrination centers", aka, graduate schools in astronomy, we come to Plasma Cosmology by many different roads, and once here, we tend to act like a bunch of cats. We all have our own personal view of the logic and evidence that brought us here. On the other hand, with "modern" astronomy, peer-reviewed journals enforce the dogma -- it's very hard to get published if you openly disagree with the prevailing dogma in "modern" astronomy.

Actually, the process by which we have arrived here is a good one, individual choice and application of individual reasoning.

Where as, "modern" astronomy is more like a cattle operation. Young impressionable people want to study astronomy and are just about willing to "suck up" whatever the school is putting out, so as to be part of the group. It's okay if the school is imparting theory that matches reality, but in a situation like this with "modern" astronomy so hopelessly adrift...sad.

Almost any astronomer craves to get published, this wears people down, if they ever resisted, until they go along with the dogma. And the high muckady mucks are fine with this kind of arrangement.

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by KickLaBuka » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:04 pm

Anaconda,
I appreciate your candor. I almost felt that you guys were talking around me.
we come to Plasma Cosmology by many different roads, and once here, we tend to act like a bunch of cats
At times, I feel that this organization is mad at me for bringing electromass in such a fury. Like Newton, I’m an obsessive-compulsive, manic-depressive. By definition, I have a hard time bringing any thought into light without stepping on some toes.
Almost any astronomer craves to get published, this wears people down,
I certainly feel worn down by the surplus of chatter and the lack of credit given back to me. I have offered to include dozens of names of people who I don’t know because I want to share. I have read most of the threads since, and am considering lots of tuning of my book, and adding names of people who were affective in their fields. But I think over the past month that some have just gone away with the new knowledge and completely forgotten who brought it here; who conclusively brought the EU out of mythology, taught them the atom, explained mass, and opened the door for growth.

I expect a great deal of appreciation as well as approval, to the point of depression, because I fear I have not made many friends in my solitary passion for a subject. I get exposed to the EU. I have a unique understanding of what I learned in physics, and as if I have come in and offended the chosen leaders, the entire community shuns or overlooks me. So I don’t accept all of the various thoughts of the EU stemming from all of these foundations. I constantly obsess over gaining approval even though I am so inflexible with my outlook. I’m not as concerned about being published as I am about gaining approval from a group that is supposed to know electricity and space in and out. Is that too much to ask? A name drop here and there? Credit for a passionate and accurate assessment of the universe? Speaking broadly, don't you guys want to learn the math I am suggesting?

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by junglelord » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:05 pm

Dave Thomson, who worked out APM (aether physics model) was very disappointed at how much the machine works against the sensible truth, nor does it press Nobels Prizes into his hand, and I agree, that he has been over looked and APM while recognized by a limited amount of scientist, has not taken hold.
:cry:
My best advice, do not take it personal, do not care if others do not listen. To those that are called, they will come. Even still the message will not always conveyed, that YOU taught it too them. Its a personal journey, like coming to the EU. I too get excited, no one else, really cares. I have learned to keep it to myself in public.
:lol:
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Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by moses » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:50 pm

I have learned to keep it to myself in public.
junglelord

My poor chiropractor gets it. The dinosaurs from Mars and everything.
Cruel really !
Mo

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by junglelord » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:50 am

When you tell someone, you used to believe and black holes, they look at you like you need therapy for even thinking about such deep things in the first place. :lol:

I have learned to keep a lot of things to myself in public. But every now and then I point up at the heavens and say, look, the ISS IS GOING BY....they think I am a genius.
:D
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by biknewb » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:35 am

junglelord wrote:But every now and then I point up at the heavens and say, look, the ISS IS GOING BY....they think I am a genius.
:D
But you are a genius! And so is KickLaBuka. And most others on this forum. And me for recognizing it! :D :P :shock:

If only there was a way to convince the rest of the world.

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by junglelord » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:27 am

Naw, I just go to Heavens Above and hit the ISS button.
:D

I just seem intelligent, but having a love affair with Black Holes due to song Cyngus X-1 by Rush, not so much.
;)
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by jjohnson » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:12 pm

In the article, I think the term "misidentified" is the operative verb. What they posit as dark energy and matter, and black holes "hiding" at the center of galaxies and other popular places is just that - something which they posit, or hypothesize, as causing effects nearby, some observable, and most not. The numerous contradictions and revised theories should indicate that there's trouble in River City with that model.

Just because things are not observable in physics doesn't mean that they do not or cannot exist (nor that they do or can, either), if you take observable to mean observable by us using our own senses and the senses we have constructed to upshift and downshift other parts of the EM spectrum to the part that we can see (i.e., to images visible to us.) We draw conclusions all the time from secondary effects of the agent itself - such as, say, gravity or eletromagnetism. We do not "see" gravity except by observing things which "fall" or appear to obey orbital mechanics, and we have yet to observe any effect at all, however subtle, of the hypothesis of gravity waves or gravitons. One cannot take a picture of a galaxy, say, in "the gravity end of the spectrum". One can make graphic depictions of gravity and magnetic and electric fields once some basic observations are made on how their strength appears to vary by position coordinates. We can even turn it into a movie by making a time-ordered sequence of how those strengths vary over time. Such depictions are plausible as long as they follow the rules by which we think physics operates, and are extremely useful so long as they describe what is REALLY going on, and can predict a consequential effect at a later time (which should be objectively measurable in order to see if it "followed the rule"). But beware. There are completely believable movies showing humans walking with dinosaurs, too. To paraphrase H. L. Mencken, "For every physics question there are solutions which are neat, plausible, and wrong."

With black holes and the standard model and string theory, almost nothing seems to predict properly, almost everything is unobservable and therefore not falsifiable. These conditions tend to place black holes into the faith category because there is a large body, or congregation, of working scientists who sincerely have faith that this is the way things work. We all really, really want to know how things work. Some of us have gotten a little dissatisfied and disappointed with the multiple and conflicting interpretations of how things work among cosmologists and most astrophysicists and probably NASA, too. So, we're just looking in other places. Just because the light is better under the corner street lamp, and all your friends are searching there, doesn't mean that's the most likely place to find your lost your wallet! So far, the EU and plasma cosmology approach seems to jibe better with what we perceive as reality, whatever that is. These EU concepts will become increasingly powerful and persuasive only if we can enlarge our repertoire of successful, accurate and totally surprising and unexpected (by the congregation) predictions of "how things work". Most of physics, and science in general, is doing pretty well in this department. As has been written many times, the astronomical parts and possibly the relativity and red shift parts, took the wrong switch (or set of points, as railroad fans say) and the buffaloes are heading for a cliff.

A final quote from H.L. Mencken (an avowed racist, unfortunately, who nonetheless got a lot of his observations on the state of minds of men and women correct) is as follows: "Firmness in decision is often merely a form of stupidity. It indicates an inability to think the same thing out twice." Or, as Filp Wilson asked, "Do de name Ruby Begonia ring a bell?"

Black holes are objects of faith, not observed entities. As such, they are solely supported by faith and one does not argue with those of that faith, or any other faith, for that matter. Faith is not subject to argument, which is where the creation scientists (oxymoron alert!) got off their track. Science IS subject to argument, and should suffer skeptics gladly so long as the skeptics argue by presenting something plausible and observable and falsifiable as rebuttal and alternative. Faith and science are far more different than apples and oranges. They need to be kept in separate pockets or drawers, and never be trotted out at the same time. Neither is wrong in light of the other; they should have nothing to do with one another. In a perfect world (which this ain't, I hypothesize) scientists with a given set of working hypotheses and theories would be interested and eager to entertain and examine alternative competition, so long as it is presented as a plausible alternative. If they can falsify it, it eliminates an avenue of fruitless research that they can then safely ignore, and continue working on their own stuff. If they cannot falsify it, why, there might be something there which is a better paradigm of how things work, and they can stop barking down their former trail and adopt something which turns out to be the better model. This is scientific theory selection and appraisal in action; sort of the evolution of science itself.

Sounds simple in concept, like Darwin's origin of species and subsequent developments in clade theory and then molecular biology (Read Ernst Mayr's "What Evolution Is" for a cogent and beautiful exposition of scientific history and evolution of evolutionary science itself.) But it has become terribly hard to change the vector of high-inertia astro-cosmological science today, with even the most attractive and plausible ideas formulated over decades by serious scientists, engineers and bright observers. So, we just have to keep chipping away at this, and hope the dam will break one of these times. Preferably in my lifetime. A sense of humor always helps, as well as making the case that these ideas are presented humbly as helpful alternative paths to consider. Remember, today's humans are just the members of the family that managed to do things right, under the circumstances. -and the Neandertals weren't.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome!

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by Lloyd » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:49 pm

Speaking broadly, don't you guys want to learn the math I am suggesting?
* The math of what? Math that proves blackholes? Or math that disproves them? Or what?
* Are you sad or annoyed about getting depressed? The cause of depression can be early childhood trauma, insufficient nutrition, or psychotropic drugs etc. I was on Thorazine for a few months in 1970 and recently read that the junk causes brain damage. It made me very sleepy at the time; and now I find out it was harming my brain. When you get depressed, do you then get elated, because you know you're cycling back to elation soon? Or do you get depressed when you're elated, because you know you're going to be depressed soon?
* But, anyway, I'm interested in your math a little, if it's simple enough and dramatic, like Stephen Crothers' stuff. I didn't understand Dave Thompson's stuff well enough, so I don't know if it was realistic, though Dave Talbott thought so. I don't really have much time for this lately though. Can you explain your idea here briefly? Or did you already do that somewhere?
* Oh, I see you did the Mass vs Matter thread. Has anyone told you to check out Wal Thornhill's site to see what he says there? http://holoscience.com - I think he has a similar idea to what you're saying.
* This webpage seems relevant: http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=7qqsr17q
* You could also look through this: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=site%3Ah ... mf0jJ9P_V0

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Ooops. Spitzer did it Again.

Post by FS3 » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:16 am

Spitzer made an indeed awsome pic:

Image

And, again, NASA is seeing Black 'oles all over as you can read from this press release:
...The galaxy, called NGC 1097, is located 50 million light-years away. It is spiral-shaped like our Milky Way, with long, spindly arms of stars. The "eye" at the center of the galaxy is actually a monstrous black hole surrounded by a ring of stars. In this color-coded infrared view from Spitzer, the area around the invisible black hole is blue and the ring of stars, white.

The black hole is huge, about 100 million times the mass of our sun, and is feeding off gas and dust along with the occasional unlucky star. Our Milky Way's central black hole is tame by comparison, with a mass of a few million suns.

"The fate of this black hole and others like it is an active area of research," said George Helou, deputy director of NASA's Spitzer Science Center at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. "Some theories hold that the black hole might quiet down and eventually enter a more dormant state like our Milky Way black hole."...
Apart from all those Black 'oles, "calming down" or develpoing into a "more dormant state"(?huh?) they still seem to play playing peek-a-boo as that Black 'ole still seems to be "invisible" - although everyone seems to "see" it...

Isn't imagination of self-fullfilling prophecies a great thing?
;-)
FS3

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Re: Black Holes Don't Exist, Say Physicists

Post by KickLaBuka » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:30 am

Simma down now Richard. Got it.

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