Cautionary Note

Plasma formations in the ancient sky. The role of planets as charged bodies in these formations. Ground-rules for drawing reliable conclusions. A new approach to the mythic archetypes: is a unified theory of world mythology possible?
Grey Cloud
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Cautionary Note

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:17 am

Howdy all.

I would like to begin by issuing a note of caution in that I feel you are entering a minefield while opening a can of worms with this thread.
My main interest is metaphysics, that is to say, the 'Why' of things. To this end I read philosophy, various religious texts, mythology, Alchemy, Hermetic texts etc etc. I also keep an eye on science: quantum, Einsteinian and EU. This eclectic reading has convinced me that myths are not just about fiery dragons in the sky etc. The are far more subtle and complex than that. I should point out at this stage that I have no problem with catastrophe theory per se.
Please bear in mind that I am playing Devil's Advocate here as I am a great admirer of the EU paradigm and the last thing I want to see is it being undermined by this myth/catastrophe theme providing ammunition for its critics and detractors.
I have read the posts on this forum, watched the video clips and read the essays (Cardona, Talbot, Van der Sluijs et al) and, to me at least, certain problems are evident. I will mention these briefly here and go into more detail in subsequent posts. In no particular order:

1. Too many sweeping generalisations and too frequent use of the word 'all'. Lack of definitions of terms, e.g. 'archetypes'.
2. Treating ancient peoples as a) one homogeneous group - i.e. an ancient is an ancient is an ancient, and b) treating them as superstitious primitives who jump every time they hear thunder.
3. Lack of sources and references, and where sources are given they are generally, IMHO, not the best ones to be using.
4. Conflating several different gods or goddesses and shoe-horning them into a theory.
5. Dave Talbot (4/4 6:03) states that 'Certain questions of special interest to some, such as the role of "ancient spiritual wisdom" in mythology, can be taken up in separate threads, if desired'. While I understand his reason for this I think it is a mistake. The Ancient Wisdom is basically what myths are about. Unless one takes cognizance of it then all you are doing is projecting ones own prejudices, assumptions etc back onto ancient civilisations/cultures (which is exactly what academics do). You don't have to belive it but you do have to accept that the ancients did. The Ancient Wisdom underpins all the world's religions, ancient and modern, East and West.

To reiterate, I am playing Devil's Advocate and will expand on these points in subsequent posts over the next week or two.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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davesmith_au
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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by davesmith_au » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:53 am

Grey Cloud wrote:Howdy all.

I would like to begin by issuing a note of caution in that I feel you are entering a minefield while opening a can of worms with this thread.
My main interest is metaphysics, that is to say, the 'Why' of things. To this end I read philosophy, various religious texts, mythology, Alchemy, Hermetic texts etc etc. I also keep an eye on science: quantum, Einsteinian and EU. This eclectic reading has convinced me that myths are not just about fiery dragons in the sky etc. The are far more subtle and complex than that. I should point out at this stage that I have no problem with catastrophe theory per se.
Please bear in mind that I am playing Devil's Advocate here as I am a great admirer of the EU paradigm and the last thing I want to see is it being undermined by this myth/catastrophe theme providing ammunition for its critics and detractors.
I have read the posts on this forum, watched the video clips and read the essays (Cardona, Talbot, Van der Sluijs et al) and, to me at least, certain problems are evident. I will mention these briefly here and go into more detail in subsequent posts. In no particular order:

1. Too many sweeping generalisations and too frequent use of the word 'all'. Lack of definitions of terms, e.g. 'archetypes'.
2. Treating ancient peoples as a) one homogeneous group - i.e. an ancient is an ancient is an ancient, and b) treating them as superstitious primitives who jump every time they hear thunder.
3. Lack of sources and references, and where sources are given they are generally, IMHO, not the best ones to be using.
4. Conflating several different gods or goddesses and shoe-horning them into a theory.
5. Dave Talbot (4/4 6:03) states that 'Certain questions of special interest to some, such as the role of "ancient spiritual wisdom" in mythology, can be taken up in separate threads, if desired'. While I understand his reason for this I think it is a mistake. The Ancient Wisdom is basically what myths are about. Unless one takes cognizance of it then all you are doing is projecting ones own prejudices, assumptions etc back onto ancient civilisations/cultures (which is exactly what academics do). You don't have to belive it but you do have to accept that the ancients did. The Ancient Wisdom underpins all the world's religions, ancient and modern, East and West.

To reiterate, I am playing Devil's Advocate and will expand on these points in subsequent posts over the next week or two.
And "Howdy" right back at ya, Grey Cloud, or in my lingo, Giday...

I understand your words of caution, however they may be somewhat premature. The subject of Mythology as relates to EU is HUGE. One cannot cover all the bases in a couple of quick posts. Which is one of the reasons we anticipate strong moderation of this particular forum. A couple of your points I would like to quickly and lightly address.

1.) I am not asking you to do so, but the generalisations you mention would need to be listed to answer this point. This is not a "smart-alec" answer, but for a simple definition of archetypes see thefreedictionary:

ar·che·type (ärk-tp)
n.
1. An original model or type after which other similar things are patterned; a prototype: "'Frankenstein' . . . 'Dracula' . . . 'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde' . . . the archetypes that have influenced all subsequent horror stories" New York Times.
2. An ideal example of a type; quintessence: an archetype of the successful entrepreneur.
3. In Jungian psychology, an inherited pattern of thought or symbolic imagery derived from the past collective experience and present in the individual unconscious.

I don't think Talbot et al have used any but the common meaning of the term.

2.a). I can assure you, the comparative method is not about treating all of the ancients as one homogenous group. However, it is points common to may of the ancients which supply some of the most solid evidence that what they were telling us was not 'coincidence' per se, but rather a true co-incidence of actual events, with nothing mystical about them.

2.b). No-one in the EU group has ever treated the ancients as a bunch of superstitious primatives who jump at the sound of thunder. On the contrary, Talbott et al are among the few who DON'T treat them in this way. They hold the utmost respect for what the ancients have to tell us, and are attempting to DISPEL the MYTH that they were all insane/superstitious. This is a point which many 'mainstream' mythologists have oh so wrong.

3.) References may seem sparse in some quarters, but if you read Dwardu Cardona's God Star and Flare Star you'll find references on almost every single page, and these are not flimsy books either. But no doubt your point will be noted and improved upon.

4.) No-one has shoe-horned anything into a theory. Rather, the theory has grown as the trail of evidence has been followed. That is the way science SHOULD be done. IF that ends in an apparent conflation of gods/godesses, so be it.

5.) The myths were not, at their roots, about wisdom but about what people saw in the sky and happening around them. This is the whole point of the discussion. Wisdom, whether ancient or contemporary is another kettle of fish.

So whilst your warning is heeded, in that this is a potential can of worms, none of this has been entered into lightly and it is in fact the culmination of many years of work for those involved. The Comparative Method involves a scientific forensic approach to the evidence left behind by the ancients and there is nothing mystical about it at all. And please bear in mind that I take your point about "devil's advocate" and these comments are as much to help others see the direction we are taking here more clearly as they are a direct answer to you.

Welcome aboard - enjoy the ride!!

Cheers, Dave Smith.
"Those who fail to think outside the square will always be confined within it" - Dave Smith 2007
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Plasmatic
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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by Plasmatic » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:56 am

1. Too many sweeping generalisations and too frequent use of the word 'all'. Lack of definitions of terms, e.g. 'archetypes'.
Well ill address the only example you have given. The "archetypes" Dave refers to have indeed been defined explicitly in THUNDERBOLTS OF THE GODS pg 89. , which i have mentioned in another thread.:
JL , having studied Jung alot longer that E.U. I can tell you that it is NOT the same thing as what Dave is referring to. Jung considered the Archetypes to be internal mental phenomenon. Or as Dave put it in MYTHSCAPES a "metaphor for a phsychological process" Dave makes the distinction clear inTHUNDERBOLTS OF THE GODS pg 89.:

"It is vital that the reader keep in mind , however ,that by "archtype"we do not mean the unconscious structures of thought to which Jung refered, but an original pattern of conscious human experience to which numerous unconscious ideas and tendencies may indeed trace."


Jungle lord wrote:

This leaves you with some ovbious conclusions to be drawn in a technological advanced world that could explain archetype supernatural myths and archetype supernatural legends as archetype supertechnological in regard to gods and us being taught by them. Its a simple and profoundly powerful approach and the ability to dismiss all the archetypes as chance and coincidence are more absurd then the conclusions reached.




Lets be clear the "gods" in the literature of Talbott , Cardona , and Cochrane are "Planets and aspects of planets" Dave points out :

"the ancient interpretations are imaginative: humans projected wide ranging personalities and mythic qualities onto objects and formations in space . In its skepticism about the patterns of human memory , the modern world forgot the disticion between natural event and human interpretation, then tossed out the entire body of evidence."

The method for dicovering these "Archetypes" is the Comparative Method. But one must realize that the origins of these patterns were objective referents in an ancient sky , "not part of our familiar world today"
2. Treating ancient peoples as a) one homogeneous group - i.e. an ancient is an ancient is an ancient, and b) treating them as superstitious primitives who jump every time they hear thunder.
What else would modern man call them ? Modern contrasts with ancient. Do you suggest that their where modern men then too? Are you suggesting classes of ancients? eg almost ancient , somewhat ancient , new born ancient , elderly ancient, etc? Would that make sense ? The whole model is demonstrating that man did indeed respond with fear and appeasement to the "gods" which the model shows where indeed "objective events". If i may point out that youve done exactly what you have criticised in the first place
The Ancient Wisdom is basically what myths are about. Unless one takes cognizance of it then all you are doing is projecting ones own prejudices, assumptions etc back onto ancient civilisations/cultures (which is exactly what academics do). You don't have to belive it but you do have to accept that the ancients did. The Ancient Wisdom underpins all the world's religions, ancient and modern, East and West
3. Lack of sources and references, and where sources are given they are generally, IMHO, not the best ones to be using.
All of the published works Ive read have extensive references. TOTG has 7 pages of them and a biblography , God Star and Flare Star have references and notes at the bottom of every page in the book just about.Can you tell me one book theve published that doesnt? To assert they " are not the best" without example is a bit of a "sweeping generalization" isnt it ?
4. Conflating several different gods or goddesses and shoe-horning them into a theory.
Well until you provide support this will be seen as unsupported speculation.
5. Dave Talbot (4/4 6:03) states that 'Certain questions of special interest to some, such as the role of "ancient spiritual wisdom" in mythology, can be taken up in separate threads, if desired'. While I understand his reason for this I think it is a mistake. The Ancient Wisdom is basically what myths are about. Unless one takes cognizance of it then all you are doing is projecting ones own prejudices, assumptions etc back onto ancient civilisations/cultures (which is exactly what academics do). You don't have to belive it but you do have to accept that the ancients did. The Ancient Wisdom underpins all the world's religions, ancient and modern, East and West

You are providing a false analogy. "ancient SPIRITUAL wisdom" is not the same as "ancient wisdom" . The difference is one speculates as to the "divine/spiritual" content in the "wisdom" , as opposed to the "objective" events them selves as a natural phenomenon. Which is after all what the entire model is about. Real events that involved real existents. Dave suggested if one wanted to discuss the "spiritual" possibilities then to start another thread . After all they are two different words and concepts. Or are you proposing exactly that , all the ancient wisdom was "spiritual" ? The mythological "underpinnings" that religions have where objective real events and things reified into "spiritual " concepts. Thats exactly what the evidence shows , and the point of the model in the first place. The ancients where experiencing real events ,that find their explanations in plasma and planets.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by Plasmatic » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:59 am

Dave you must have been typing at the same time as me! :lol:
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by davesmith_au » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:00 am

SNAP!! :lol:
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Grey Cloud
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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:21 pm

Sorry, it should have been 'ow do, if we are going for local dialect.

Okay, thanks for replying and I will try to expand my original points and hopefully address/answer your responses to them.

1. Archetypes. There are no archetypes in mythology. Each story or tale is just that, a story or tale which has an inner (esoteric) and an outer (exoteric) meaning. The fact that similar stories appear in the mythologies of different peoples is a reflection of the fact that they are addressing the same topic whether it be a global catastrophe or a specific aspect of the Ancient Wisdom.
Jung's concept of the archetype influenced the mythographer Joseph Campbell and Velikovsky.
For an interesting interpretation of Jung's theory (that Jung ripped-off Plato's concept of Forms) see:
Platonism and Alchemy (1 of 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRzrJsGr ... re=related

2.a. What I meant by there are ancients and there are ancients is that the 'ancient' period covers a vast tract of time. In academic history the 'ancient world' came to an end with the fall of Rome but I view the Romans as the first modern civilisation (they were out and out materialists). I view classical Greece and the Hellenistic period as a transitional period. For example there is a difference in the way the pre- and post-Socratic philosophers wrote (or even between Plato and Aristotle).
Another example which is frequently seen in the media, is referring to the 'ancient' Aztecs and the 'ancient' Incas. The two culture were not ancient but contemporaneous with medieval Europe.
As a third example: the Egyptian obsession with mummification is a late development and to me a sign of a civilisation which has lost the plot. Mummification has no place in the original philosophy of the Egyptians (what use is a dead material body in the non-material realm of the after-life?). Ditto the Aztecs with their blood sacrificies.
2.b. Fair comment there. My original comment didn't come out quite as intended.
With regard to the petragraphs I do actually think that these were done by traumatised people cowering in caves after their communities had been trashed. Certainly they do not seem to be
directly related or similar to e.g. cave paintings (Lascaux etc). Or put another way, they are 'just' drawings of something observed in the sky rather than having any narrative content.

3. References. I noted Cardona's references in the articles on his website. Graves and Fraser are a waste of space in terms of interpretations. The works by academics/scholars such as Burckhardt, Nagy, Eliade etc are not much better. Academics in the humanities follow the same Big Bang, gravity, Darwinian Evolution paradigm as do the scientists which you deride when wearing your EU hats. They interpret myths according to the dogma of the Church of Science. They will not entertain the notion that anyone from so long ago could be anywhere
near as clever as like what they are. Or that time is not linear.
As a rule of thumb for any subject, I view anything written post WW2 as 'dodgy'. I find, especially where matters ancient are concerned, that the Victorians and Edwardians tend to be much fairer minded.
For a good overwiew of the ancient ways see:
The Secret Teachings of All Ages by Manly P Hall at:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/
Sacred Texts is great resource.
For Egyptian stuff see the writings of Gerald Massey, Alvin Boyd Kuhn, Rene Schwaller De Lubicz and John Anthony West.
The various Theosophist sites around the net have some really good stuff on various topics.
Anna Bonus Kingsford does some interesting interpretaions of myths.
Plato and Plutarch discuss the meaning and interpretations of myths.
As do several of the Neo-Platonists.

4. and 5. In one of the movie clips where the notion of the good/bad goddess was being covered, various names were rolled out. Among them was Kore. Kore has nothing to do with Aphrodite/Venus and the abduction of Persephone (Kore) has nothing to do with events in the
sky. The Persephone story is essentially the same as the story of the Fall in Genesis except that in every tradition except the Abrahamic, it is a descent and not a 'fall'. It wont let attatch anyything so I'll post the full interpreation separately. It's good example of the amount of info that is hidden in any given mythological tale.
Inana's descent into the Underworld is the same story in essence. Esoterically the Underworld is this world.
The story of Jacob's Ladder is related. It is the story of the soul's journey down to this material world (to reincarnate) via the seven planets. From each planet it acquires a specific set of attributes.
Likewise upon 'death' the soul ascends via the planets divesting itself of these attributes. This is part of the Ancient Wisdom.
St George and the Dragon. This is essentially a retelling of the Perseus and Andromeda story. Perseus like most of the heroes of Greek myth is a demi-god (half-god, half-human), that is, he is Everyman. As the Orphics had it: 'I am a child of Earth and Starry Heaven. My home is on Earth but my race is of Heaven'. Andromeda represents the soul (the soul is always female). The dragon/sea-monster represents matter and the material. Plato said that the body lives the death of the soul. Again this is the Ancient Wisdom. Anyone who knows anything of Hinduism or Buddhism will see where they are coming from.
Another of my rules of thumb: any monster battled by a human or demi-god represents matter and the human condition; any monster battled by a full-on god 'may' represent some sort of celestial intruder; serpents (as opposed to dragons) usually represent something to do with humans, e.g. kundalini (which is essentialy electric).
The myths at their root are very much about Wisdom. The ancients did not write in straight narrative. They wrote in allegory, symbolism and correspondence. Their notion of education was different to the modern notion. Nowadays education is about cramming brains full of 'facts' which have to be regurgitated at essay and exam time. The word 'education' comes from a root which implies drawing out. The ancient way of education was directed at the mind not the brain. (the body has a brain, the soul has a mind).
Another reason they used allegory etc was because they were very aware that any human language is designed to describe the physical/material world. It is virtually useless for addressing the metaphysical world (meta = beyond).
Another part of one of the videos had various wheels and circles lumped together. These can represent the solar ecliptic, the galactic ecliptic, the circle of the zodiac and who knows what else. The number of spokes or rays can give a clue. The ancients knew a lot more about
the workings of space than the modern 'experts' credit them. See Plato's Timaeus for example where he mentions the differing speeds of the planetary orbits, conjunctions, the angle of the solar ecliptic and the galactic or:
"The earth, a globe self-balanced in the midst of space, has many mansions of the soul, some higher and brighter, some lower and darker than our present habitation. We who dwell about the Mediterranean Sea are like frogs at the bottom of a pool. In some higher place, under the true heaven, our souls may dwell hereafter, and see not only colors and forms in their ideal purity but truth and justice as they are."
- Socrates' dialogue in Plato's Phaedo

I would very much like to know where this thing about Saturn being perched at the North Pole originated as it is a new one on me.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

Grey Cloud
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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:43 pm

Here's the Anna Bonus Kingsford piece on Persephone that it wouldn't let me attach. The style is 'breatless Victorian'. Enjoy.

Anna Kingsford

An Introduction to the Virgin of the World


THE mystic title of the celebrated Hermetic fragment with which this volume commences, "Koré Kosmou" – that is, the "Kosmic Virgin," is in itself a revelation of the wonderful identity subsisting between the ancient wisdom-religion of the old world, and the creed of catholic Christendom. Koré is the name by which, in the Eleusinian Mysteries, Persephone the Daughter, or Maiden, was saluted; and it is also – perhaps only by coincidence – the Greek word for the pupil or apple of the eye. When, however, we find Isis, the Moon-goddess and Initiatrix, in her discourse with Horos, mystically identifying the eye with the soul, and comparing the tunics of the physical organ of vision with the envelopes of the soul; when, moreover, we reflect that precisely as the eye, by means of its pupil, is the enlightener and precipient of the body, so is the soul the illuminating and seeing principle of man, we can hardly regard this analogy of names as wholly unintentional and uninstructive. For Koré, or Persephone, the Maiden, is the personified soul, whose "apostasy," or "descent," from the heavenly sphere into earthly generation, is the theme of the following Hermetic parable.(1)

The Greek mysteries dealt only with two subjects, the first being the drama of the "rape" and restoration of Persephone; the second, that of the incarnation, martyrdom, and resuscitation of Dionysos-Zagreus. By Persephone was intended the Soul; and by Dionysos, the Spirit. Hermetic doctrine taught a fourfold nature both of the Kosmos and of Man; and of this fourfold nature two elements were deemed immortal and permanent, and two mortal and transient. The former were the spirit and the soul; the latter, the lower mind – or sense-body – and the physical organism. The spirit and soul, respectively male and female, remained throughout all the changes of metempsychosis the same, indissoluble and incorrupt, but the body and lower intellect were new in each rebirth, and therefore changeful and dissoluble. The spirit, or Dionysos, was regarded as of a specially divine genesis, being the Son of Zeus by the immaculate Maiden – Koré-Persephoneia, herself the daughter of Demeter, or the parent and super-mundane Intelligence, addressed in the Mysteries as the "Mother." (1) But Koré, although thus of heavenly origin, participates more closely than her Son in an earthly and terrestrial nature. "Hence," says Proclos, "according to the theologians who delivered to us the most holy Mysteries, Persephone abides on high in those dwellings of the Mother which she prepared for her in inaccessible places, exempt from the sensible world. But she likewise dwells beneath with Pluto, administering terrestrial concerns, governing the recesses of the earth, and supplying life to the extremities of the Kosmos."

Wherefore, considered as the daughter of Zeus and Demeter, Koré is immaculate and celestial in character: considered as the captive and consort of Hades, she belongs to the lower world and to the region of lamentation and dissolution. And, indeed, the Soul possesses the dual nature thus ascribed to her, for she is in her interior and proper quality, incorrupt and inviolable – ever virgin – while in her apparent and relative quality, she is defiled and fallen. In Hermetic fable the constant emblem of the Soul is Water, or the Sea – Maria; and one salient reason for this comparison is that water, however seemingly contaminated, yet remains, in its essence, always pure. For the defilement of so-called foul water really consists in sediments held by it in solution, and thereby causing it to appear turbid, but this defilement cannot enter into its integral constitution. So that if the foulest or muddiest water be distilled it will leave behind in the cucurbite all its earthy impurities, and present itself, without loss, clear and lucent in the recipient alembic. Not, therefore, without cause is the Soul designated "ever virgin," because in her essential selfhood she is absolutely immaculate and without taint of sin. And the whole history of the world, from end to end, is the history of the generation, lapse, sorrows, and final assumption of this Kosmic virgin. For the soul has two modes or conditions of being – centrifugal and centripetal. The first is the condition of her outgoing, her immergence in Matter, or her "fall," and the grief and subjection which she thereby brings upon herself. This phase is, in the Jewish Kabbala, represented by Eve. The second condition is that of her incoming, her emergence from Matter, her restitution, or glorification in "heaven." This phase is presented to us in the Christian evangel and Apocalypse under the name of, Mary. Hence the Catholic saying that the "Ave" of Mary reverses the curse of Eva.

In perfect accord with Kabbalistic doctrine, the allegory of the "Koré Kosmou" thus clearly indicates the nature of the Soul's original apostacy; "she receded from the prescribed limits; not willing to remain in the same abode, she moved ceaselessly, and repose seemed death." (1)

In this phrase we have the parallel to the scene represented in the Mysteries, where Persephone, wilfully straying from the mansions of heaven, falls under the power of the Hadean God. This, perhaps the most occult part of the whole allegory, is but lightly touched in the fragmentary discourse of Isis, and we cannot, therefore, do better than to reproduce here the eloquent exposition of Thomas Taylor on the subject.

"Here, then," he says, "we see the first cause of the Soul's descent, namely, the abandoning of a life wholly according to the Higher Intellect, which is occultly signified by the separation of Proserpina from Ceres. Afterward, we are told that Jupiter instructs Venus to go to her abode, and betray Proserpina from her retirement, that Pluto may be enabled to carry her away; and to prevent any suspicion in the virgin's mind, he commands Diana and Pallas to go in company. The three Goddesses arriving, find Proserpina at work on a scarf for her mother; in which she had embroidered the primitive chaos and the formation of the world. Now, by Venus, in this part of the narration, we must understand desire, which, even in the celestial regions (for such is the residence of Proserpina till she is ravished by Pluto), begins silently and stealthily to creep into the recesses of the Soul. By Minerva we must conceive the rational power of the Soul, and by Diana, Nature. And, lastly, the web in which Proserpina had displayed all the fair variety of the material world, beautifully represents the commencement of the illusive operations through which the Soul becomes ensnared with the fascination of imaginative forms. After this, Proserpina, forgetful of the Mother's commands, is represented as venturing from her retreat, through the treacherous persuasions of Venus. Then we behold her issuing on to the plain with Minerva and Diana, and attended by a beauteous train of nymphs, who are evident symbols of the world of generation, and are, therefore, the proper companions of the Soul about to fall into its fluctuating realms. Moreover, the design of Proserpina, in venturing from her retreat, is beautifully significant of her approaching descent; for she rambles from home for the purpose of gathering flowers, and this in a lawn replete with the most enchanting variety, and exhaling the most delicious odours. This is a manifest image of the Soul operating principally according to the natural and external life, and so becoming ensnared by the delusive attractions of sensible form. Immediately, Pluto, forcing his passage through the earth, seizes on Proserpina and carries her away with him. Well may the Soul, in such a situation, pathetically exclaim with Proserpina:

'O male dilecti flores, despectaque Matris Consilia;

O Veneris deprensae serius artes!' (1)

Pluto hurries Proserpina into the infernal regions: in other words, the Soul is sunk into the profound depth and darkness of a material nature. A description of her marriage next succeeds, her union with the dark tenement of the body."

To this eloquent exposition of Taylor's, it is well to add the description given in Homer's Hymn to Ceres. Persephone herself speaks:

"We were plucking the pleasant flowers, the beautiful crocus, the iris, the hyacinth, and the narcissus, which, like the crocus, the wide earth produced. With joy I was plucking them, when the earth yawned beneath, and out leaped the strong King, the Many-Receiver, and went bearing me, deeply sorrowing, under the earth in his golden chariot, and I cried aloud."

Compare with this Hermetic allegory of the lapse of Persephone and the manner of it, the Kabbalistic story of the "fall" of Eve.

"And she saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold; and she took of the fruit thereof and did eat. (...) And to the woman He said: I will multiply thy sorrows and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee."

In a note appended to Taylor's Dissertations, Dr. Wilder quotes from Cocker's Greek Philosophy the following excellent reflections: –

"The allegory of the Chariot and Winged Steeds, in Plato's Phaedrus, represents the lower or inferior part of man's nature (Adam or the body) as dragging the Soul down to the earth, and subjecting it to the slavery of corporeal conditions. Out of these conditions arise numerous evils that disorder the mind and becloud the reason, for evil is inherent to the condition of finite and multiform existence into which we have fallen. The earthly life is a fall. The soul is now dwelling in the grave which we call the body. (...) We resemble those 'captives chained in a subterraneous cave,' so poetically described in the seventh book of ‘The Republic’; their backs turned to the light, so that they see but the shadows of the objects which pass behind them, and 'to these shadows they attribute a perfect reality.' Their sojourn upon earth is thus a dark imprisonment in the body, a dreamy exile from their proper home."

Similarly we read, in the "Koré Kosmou," that the souls on learning that they were about to be imprisoned in material bodies, sighed and lamented, lifting to heaven glances of sorrow, and crying piteously, "O woe and heart-rending grief to quit these vast splendors, this, sacred sphere, and all the glories of the blessed republic of the Gods to be precipitated into these vile and miserable abodes! No longer shall we behold the divine and luminous heavens!"

Who, in reading this, is not reminded of the pathetic lament of Eve on quitting the fair "ambrosial bowers" of Paradise? (1)

From the sad and woful state into which the Virgin thus falls, she is finally rescued and restored to the supernal abodes. But not until the coming of the Saviour, represented in the allegory before us under the name of Osiris – the Man Regenerate. This Redeemer, himself of divine origin, is in other allegories represented under other names, but the idea is always luminously defined, and the intention obvious. Osiris is the lesous of our Christian doctrine, the supreme Initiate or "Captain of Salvation." He is represented, together with his Spouse, as in all things "instructed" and directed by HERMES, famed as the celestial conductor of souls from the "dark abodes;" the wise and ubiquitous God in whom the initiate recognises the Genius of the Understanding or Divine Reason – the nous of Platonic doctrine, and the mystic "Spirit of Christ." Therefore, as the understanding of holy things and the faculty of their interpretation are the gift of HERMES, the name of this God is given to all science and revelation of an occult and divine nature. A "Divine" is, in fact, one who knows the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven; hence S. John the seer, or the "divine," is especially the "beloved" of Christ. HERMES was regarded as the Messenger or Angel of the Gods, descending alike to the depths of the Hadean world, to bring up souls from thence, and ascending up beyond all heavens that he might fill all things. For the Understanding must search alike the deeps and the heights; there can be nothing hidden from it, nor can it attain the fulness of supernal and secret knowledge unless it first explore the phenomenal and terrestrial. "For that he ascended, what is it but because be also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

With the splendid joyousness and light-hearted humour which characterised the Greeks, mingling laughter and mirth even with the mysteries of Religion, and making their sacred allegories human and musical as no others of any nation or time, HERMES, the Diviner and Revealer, was also playfully styled a Thief, and the patron of thieves. But thereby was secretly indicated the power and skill of the Understanding in making everything intellectually its own. Wherefore, in charging HERMES with filching the girdle of Venus, the tongs of Vulcan, and the thunder of Jove, as well as with stealing and driving off the cattle of Apollo, it was signified that all good and noble gifts, even the attributes of the high Gods themselves, are accessible to the Understanding, and that nothing is withheld from man's intelligence, if only man have the skill to seek aright.

As the immediate companion of the sun, HERMES is the opener of the gates of the highest heaven, the revealer of spiritual light and life, the Mediator between the inner and outer spheres of existence, and the Initiator into those sacred mysteries, the knowledge of which is life eternal.

The panoply with which Greek art invests HERMES, is symbolical of the functions of the Understanding. He has four implements – the rod, the wings, the sword, and the cap, denoting respectively the science of the magian, the courage of the adventurer, the will of the hero, and the discretion of the adept. The initiates of HERMES acknowledge no authority but the Understanding; they call no man king or master upon earth; they are true Free-Thinkers and Republicans. "For where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (1) Hence Lactantius, in his "Divine Institutions," says: – "Hermes affirms that those who know God are safe from the attacks of the demon, and that they are not even subjected to Fate." Now, the powers of Fate reside in the stars – that is, in the astral sphere, whether Kosmic or micro-Kosmic. And the astral power was, in Greek fable, typified by Argos, the hundred-eyed genius of the starry zone, Panoptes, the all-seeing giant, whom it was the glory of HERMES to have outwitted and slain. Of which allegory the meaning is, that they who have the Hermetic secret are not subject to Fate, but have passed beyond the thrall of metempsychosis, and have freed themselves from "ceaseless whirling on the wheel" of Destiny. To know God is to have overcome death, and the power of death. To know the origin and secret of delusion is to transcend delusion.

The spheres of delusion, dominated by the sevenfold astral Powers, lie between the Soul and God. Beyond these spheres are the celestial "Nine Abodes," wherein, say the Mysteries, Demeter vainly sought the lost Persephone. For from these abodes she had lapsed into a mundane and material state, and thereby had fallen under the power of the planetary rulers; that is, of Fate, personified by Hekate. On the tenth day, therefore, the divine Drama shows Demeter meeting the Goddess of Doom and Retribution, the terrible Hekate Triformis – personification of Karma – by whom the "Mother" is told of Persephone's abduction and detention in the Hadean world. And – we learn – Hekate becomes thereafter the constant attendant of Persephone. All this is, of course, pregnant with the deepest significance. Until the Soul falls into Matter, she has no Fate, or Karma. Fate is the appanage and result of Time and of Manifestation. In the sevenfold astral spheres the Moon is representative of Fate, and presents two aspects, the benign and the malignant. Under the benign aspect the Moon is Artemis, reflecting to the Soul the divine light of Phoebos; under the malignant aspect she is Hekate the Avenger, dark of countenance; and three-headed, being swift as a horse, sure as a dog, and as a lion implacable. She it is who, fleet, sagacious, and pitiless, hunts guilty souls from birth to birth, and outwits death itself with unerring justice. To the innocent and chaste soul, therefore, the lunar power is favorable. Artemis is the patron and protectress of virgins – that is, of souls undefiled with the traffic of Matter. In this aspect the Moon is the Initiatrix, Isis the Enlightener, because through a beneficent Karma, or fate, the soul receives interior illumination, and the dark recesses of her chamber are lit up by sacred reminiscences. Hence, in subsequent births, such a soul becomes prophetic and "divine." But to the corrupt and the evil-hearted the influence of the Moon is malignant, for to such she assumes the aspect of Hekate, smiting by night, and terrifying with ghostly omens of misfortune. These souls fear the lunar power, and in this instinctive dread may be discerned their secret recognition of the evil fate which they are preparing for themselves in existences to come. The Tree of Good and Evil, says the Kabbala, has its root in Malchuth – the Moon.

It has been sometime asserted that the doctrine of Karma is peculiar to Hindu theology. On the contrary, it is dearly exhibited alike in the Hebrew, Hellenic, and Christian Mysteries. The Greeks called it Fate; the Christians know it as Original Sin. With which sin all mortal men come into the world, and on account of which all pass under condemnation. Only the "Mother of God" is exempt from it, the "virgin immaculate," through whose Seed the world shall be redeemed.

"As the lily among the thorns," sings the Church in the "Office of the Immaculate Conception," "so is the Beloved among the Daughters of Adam. Thou art all fair, O Beloved, and the original stain is not in thee! Thy name, O Mary, is as oil poured out; therefore, the virgins love thee exceedingly."

If, then, by Persephone or Koré, the "Virgin of the World," we are thus plainly taught to understand the Soul, we are no less plainly taught to see in Isis, the Initiatrix or Enlightener. Herself, equally with Koré, virgin and mother, the Egyptian Isis is, in her philosophical aspect, identical with the Ephesian Artemis, the Greek personification of the fructifying and all-nourishing power of Nature. She was regarded as the "inviolable and perpetual Maid of heaven; "her priests were eunuchs, and her image in the magnificent temple of Ephesus represented her with many breasts p???µast??. (1) In works of art Artemis appears variously, as the huntress, accompanied by hounds, and carrying the implements of the chase; as the Goddess of the Moon, covered with a long veil reaching to her feet, and her head adorned with a crescent; or as the many-breasted Mother-Maid, holding a lighted torch in her hand. The Latins worshipped her under the name of Diana, and it is as Diana that the Ephesian Artemis is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles. Isis had all the attributes ascribed to the lunar divinity of the Greeks and Romans; and hence, like Artemis and Diana, she was identified with the occult principle of Nature – that is, Fate, which in its various aspects and relations was severally viewed as Fortune, Retribution, Doom, or Destiny; a principle represented, as we have already seen, by the Kabbalists, under the figure off Malchuth, or the Moon; and by the Hindu theosophists under the more abstract conception of Karma.

The hounds of Artemis, or Diana, are the occult powers which hunt down and pursue the soul from birth to birth; the inevitable, implacable forces of Nature which, following evermore on the steps of every ego, compel it into the conditions successively engendered by its actions, as effect by cause. Hence Actaeon, presuming upon Fate, and oblivious of the sanctity and inviolability of this unchanging law of Karmic Destiny, is torn in pieces by his own dogs, to wit, his own deeds, which by the decree of the implacable Goddess, turn upon and rend him. So also, in accordance with this philosophical idea, those who were initiated into the mysteries of Isis, wore in the public processions masks representing the heads of dogs. So intimately was the abstract conception of the moon associated by the ancients with that of the secret influence and power of Destiny in Nature, that Proclos in his Commentary upon the Timaeus says of Diana: – "She presides over the whole of the generation into natural existence, leads forth into light all natural reasons, and extends a prolific power from on high even to the subterranean realms." These words completely describe the Egyptian Isis, and show us how the moon, occultly viewed as the Karmic power, was regarded as the cause of continued generation in natural conditions, pursuing souls even into the Hadean or purgatorial spheres and visiting upon them the fruition of their past. Hence, too, in the Orphic Hymn to Nature, that Goddess is identified with Fortune, and represented as standing with her feet upon a wheel which she continually turns, – "moving with rapid motion on an eternal wheel." (1)

And again, in another Orphic Hymn, Fortune herself is invoked as Diana. Proclos, in the Commentary to which reference has already been made, declares that "the moon is the cause of Nature to mortals, and the self-revealing image of the Fountain of Nature." "If," says Thomas Taylor, "the reader is desirous of knowing what we are to understand by the fountain of Nature of which the moon is the image, let him attend to the following information, derived from a long and deep study of the ancient theology, for from hence I have learned that there are many divine fountains contained in the essence of the Demiurgus of the world; and that among these there are three of a very distinguished rank, namely, the fountain of souls, or Juno (Hera), the fountain of virtues, or Minerva (Athena), and the fountain of nature, or Diana (Artemis). (...) And this information will enable us to explain the meaning of the following passages in Apuleius, the first of which is in the beginning of the eleventh book of his Metamorphoses, wherein the divinity of the moon is represented as addressing him in this sublime manner: – 'Behold, Lucius, moved with thy supplications, I am present; I, who am Nature, the parent of things, mistress of all the elements, initial progeny of the ages, the highest of the divinities, queen of departed spirits, the first of the celestials, of Gods and Goddesses the sole likeness of all; who rule by my nod the luminous heights of the heavens, the salubrious breezes of the sea, and the woful silences of the infernal regions, and whose divinity, in itself but one, is venerated by all the earth, in many characters, various rites, and different appellations. (…) Those who are enlightened by the emerging rays of the rising sun, the AEthiopians and Aryans, and likewise the Egyptians, powerful in ancient learning, who reverence my divinity with ceremonies perfectly appropriate, call me by my true appellation Queen Isis.' And again, in another place of the same book, he says of the moon: – 'The supernal Gods reverence thee, and those in the realms beneath do homage to thy divinity. Thou dost make the world to revolve, and the sun to illumine, thou rulest the universe and treadest on Tartarus. To thee the stars respond, the deities rejoice, time returns by thee, the elements give thee service.' For all this easily follows if we consider it as spoken of the fountain-deity of Nature subsisting in the Demiurgus, and which is the exemplar of that nature which flourishes in the lunar orb and throughout the material world."

Thus enlightened as to the office and functions of Isis, we are at no loss to understand why she is selected by the writer of the following Hermetic fragment as the exponent of the origin, history, and destiny of the soul. For she is, in a peculiar sense, the arbiter of the soul's career in existence, her guardian and overseer. If Demeter, the Divine Intelligence, be the Mother of Koré, then Isis is her foster-mother, for no sooner does the soul fall into generation than Isis becomes her directress and the dispenser of her fate. It is not surprising, therefore, to find that by some mythologists Isis is identified with Demeter, and the sufferings of the former modified accordingly, to harmonise with the allegory of the sorrows of Demeter as set forth in the Eleusinian Mysteries. But the cause of this confusion is obvious to those who rightly understand the Hermetic method. Isis, whether as Artemis (Good Fortune), or as Hekate (Evil Fortune), is the controlling and illuminating influence of the soul while remaining within the jurisdiction of Nature and Time; Demeter, the Divine Intelligence, represents the heavenly fountain or super-mundane source, whence the soul originally draws her being, and as such, is concerned directly, not with her exile and wanderings in material conditions, but with her final recovery from generation and return to the celestial abodes. Consistently with this idea, Isis is represented sometimes as the spouse, sometimes as the mother of Osiris, the Saviour of men. For Osiris is the microcosmic Sun, the counterpart in the human system of the macrocosmic Dionysos or Son of God. So that those authors who confound Isis with Demeter, equally and quite comprehensibly confound Osiris with Dionysos, and regard the former as the central figure of the Bacchic Mysteries. The Hermetic books admit three expressions of Deity: first, the supreme, abstract, and infinite God, eternally self-subsistent and unmanifest; secondly, the only-Begotten, the manifestation of Deity in the universe; thirdly, God in man, the Redeemer, or Osiris. On one of the walls of the Temple of the Sun at Philae, and on the gate of that at Medinet-Abou are inscribed these words: – "He has made all that is, and without Him nothing that is hath been made," words which, fourteen centuries or more afterwards, were applied by the writer of S. John's Gospel to the Word of God.

The microcosmic Sun, or Osiris, was the image and correspondence of this macrocosmic Sun; the regenerating principle within the man, begotten by means of the soul's experience in Time and Generation. And hence the intimate association between this regenerating principle by which the redemption of the individual was effected, and the divine power in Nature, personified by Isis, whose function it was to minister to that redemption by the ordination of events and conditions appropriate to the soul's development. Isis is thus the secret motive-power of Evolution; Osiris is the ultimate ideal Humanity towards the realisation of which that Evolution moves.

A. K.


footnotes

Dr. Wilder, in his Introduction to the work of Mr. Thomas Taylor, the Platonist, entitled "Dissertation on the Eleusinian Mysteries," asserts that the name Koré is also Sanscrit, and that the Hindu goddess Parasu-pani, also called Gorée, is identical with the Koré-Persephoneia of Hellenic worship.

The Spirit, under the name off Atman, is the chief topic of Hindu esoteric philosophy, the Upanishads being exclusively devoted to it. They ascribe to Atman the qualities of self-subsistence, unity, universality immutability and incorruptibility. It is independent of Karma, or acquired character and destiny, and the full knowledge of it "redeems from Karma the personality informed of it". Atman is also the all seeing: and, as the Mantras say, He who recognises the universe in his own Atman, and his own Atman in the universe, knows no hatred.

I substitute the singular from the plural number, but this alters nothing in the sense.

"O flowers fatally dear, and the Mother's counsels despised! O cruel arts of crafty Venus!”

Milton's "Paradise Lost," Book XI.

"Follow no man," said John Inglesant's adviser – "there is nothing in the world of any value but the Divine Light – follow it."

The many-breasted figure which forms the frontispiece of this volume, represents Isis under this aspect. The black face and hands are, of course, equivalent to the celebrated Veil, and indicate the inscrutable nature of the occult influence which directs Destiny; and which, to the uninitiate, even appears to be blind and fortuitous. The well-known "black virgin" has the same significance.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by Plasmatic » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:35 pm

I would very much like to know where this thing about Saturn being perched at the North Pole originated as it is a new one on me.
It seems to me , you havent read much of anything about the mythological exegesis of Talbott or anyone else mentioned in your post , thats relevent to Comparative Mythology. The above quote betrays you. The Polar saturn is the primary figure on their models, save Rens. What have you actually read ? This forum is not a publishing house. Besides why ,or , how could you comment so much on something so strongly and not contrast barely anything relevent to the subject? Dave has explicitly stated , and I quoted , that he defines "archetypes " in a specific manner , not related to Jungs internal mental processes. Though I concede one point Jungs version is indeed reminiscent of Plato , and Plato and Aristotle where polar opposites. None of which supports you ancient distinction though imo.

Why not take the time to actually investigate whats actually being proposed in contrast to what you already percieve as correct , and see what happens? :)
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

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Re: Cautionary Note - a quick note on attachments

Unread post by davesmith_au » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:23 pm

Just FYI, the only attachments this forum accepts are image files. It has been set up this way to protect against possible malicious attachments.

Cheers, Dave Smith.
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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by moses » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:53 pm

Being an ex member of the Theosophical Society, I see the Persephone story as the
perfect example of a story that originated in a description of events in the sky, and
was later used to tell a spiritual tale. Once one has become thorougly familiar with
seeing these ancient stories as planetary, then one can return to the Secret Doctrine
and use this as a key to unlock the past, as written there.
Mo

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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by nick c » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:02 pm

I would like to address this particular issue, as I feel that Grey Cloud misunderstands an essential premise of the modern catastrophists' approach to mythology.

Grey Cloud wrote:
Treating ancient peoples as a) one homogeneous group - i.e. an ancient is an ancient is an ancient, and b) treating them as superstitious primitives who jump every time they hear thunder.
It is not that the importance of the lives and experiences of ancient cultures are being minimalized by the analysis, our ancestors are being treated as a "homogeneous group" because they had a common experience.
All of the human race, and specifically those that survived, experienced the existence-threatening displays in the sky. Each civilization recorded the experience within the context of their own perceptions of the universe. Their (all civilizations) world was turned over, they experienced enormous plasma discharges, earthquakes, floods, and upheaval. Their world went from peaceful and beneficial to horrific and malevolent. If there were any peoples' with developed or what we would consider 'advanced' cultures they were reduced to survival mode, seeking shelter in caves or mass migrations, if not outright extinction. In light of what they experienced it is understandable that they would "jump every time they hear thunder".... just as many do today. The problem is not in finding evidence of these events. The evidence is everywhere in myth, religious texts, and other ancient writings. The problem is that we (collectively) fail to accept the evidence when it is presented. Ancient writings from all cultures are screaming, at us, the story of our catastrophic past, yet modern man who has never experienced anything but an ordered solar system doesn't have the ability to grasp the story that has been handed down to him. We think: "it must be myth, metaphors for natural cycles, or just the fabrifications of fertile primitive imaginations." We don't want to think the unthinkable- THE END OF THE WORLD, yet we as a culture are fascinated by and drawn to that concept, like a moth to a flame.
Rather than devaluing the ancients, the modern catastrophists' take their testimony as the honest interpretations of eyewitnesses, to extraordinary events viewed on the screen of the sky, told in a subjective context.

Nick

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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:02 am

Well ill address the only example you have given. The "archetypes" Dave refers to have indeed been defined explicitly in THUNDERBOLTS OF THE GODS pg 89. , which i have mentioned in another thread
I didn't mention TOTG and can hardly be blamed for not having read a post by you in another thread. I have made additional comments in my reply to Dave.
What else would modern man call them ? Modern contrasts with ancient. Do you suggest that their where modern men then too? Are you suggesting classes of ancients? eg almost ancient , somewhat ancient , new born ancient , elderly ancient, etc? Would that make sense ? The whole model is demonstrating that man did indeed respond with fear and appeasement to the "gods" which the model shows where indeed "objective events". If i may point out that youve done exactly what you have criticised in the first place
Not sure whether this is an attempt at reductio ad absurdum or sarcasm. Again, I have tried to explain this better in my reply to Dave.

All of the published works Ive read have extensive references. TOTG has 7 pages of them and a biblography , God Star and Flare Star have references and notes at the bottom of every page in the book just about.Can you tell me one book theve published that doesnt? To assert they " are not the best" without example is a bit of a "sweeping generalization" isnt it ?
There you go with TOTG again. It appears to be the only book you have read and the only one I haven't. I said in my original post that I would expand on my points in subsequent posts. See my reply to Dave's post. One further point I would make is that the authors which I mention in my reply to Dave (Graves et al) are all more or less contemporaneous (within a generation or two) of Cardona. I prefer to get back as close to the original source as possible.
You are providing a false analogy. "ancient SPIRITUAL wisdom" is not the same as "ancient wisdom" . The difference is one speculates as to the "divine/spiritual" content in the "wisdom" , as opposed to the "objective" events them selves as a natural phenomenon. Which is after all what the entire model is about. Real events that involved real existents. Dave suggested if one wanted to discuss the "spiritual" possibilities then to start another thread . After all they are two different words and concepts. Or are you proposing exactly that , all the ancient wisdom was "spiritual" ? The mythological "underpinnings" that religions have where objective real events and things reified into "spiritual " concepts. Thats exactly what the evidence shows , and the point of the model in the first place. The ancients where experiencing real events ,that find their explanations in plasma and planets.
It is not a false analogy. The Ancient Wisdom, aka the Perennial Philosophy, the World Religion etc, is essentially spiritual. Unless one understand the worldview of the (educated/intelligent) ancients then one will only be projecting ones own preconceptions back onto them. They viewed the whole of creation as one organic (i.e. living) whole.
They, the ancients, were fully aware that time was cyclical (as is everything in the Unviverse) and that periodically something nasty happened which wrought havoc on Earth. To them this was part of the natural process (involution and evolution) and nothing to do with sin or punishment.

The quote from Ayn Rand which you use in your signature 'I am, therefore I think' is pertinent in that the Universe and everything in it is consciousness. The Ancient Wisdom explains this clearly enough and it, or at least elements of it, can be found in e.g. Plato, Pythagoras, Qabala, Sufism, Hinduism, Daoism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Alchemy, Mithraism, Egyptian 'myth', Mayan, etc, etc.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by Plasmatic » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:07 am

I didn't mention TOTG and can hardly be blamed for not having read a post by you in another thread.

No problem here. I wasnt suggesting you where accountable for that either[reading my post ] .I didnt say you mentioned it only that , your comments reflect that you havent read much on the subject in general.
Not sure whether this is an attempt at reductio ad absurdum or sarcasm.
No just an attempt at demonstrating the absurdity of your criticism. Without that being a personal attack on your charachter , I might add.

There you go with TOTG again. It appears to be the only book you have read and the only one I haven't. I said in my original post that I would expand on my points in subsequent posts. See my reply to Dave's post. One further point I would make is that the authors which I mention in my reply to Dave (Graves et al) are all more or less contemporaneous (within a generation or two) of Cardona. I prefer to get back as close to the original source as possible
Come now , lets be nice. Im only pointing at differences in our understanding , no need to be upset. What books have you read? I have read every journal article book and webpage on the subject just about. Thats why it seems to me your not very well introduced to the subject. Cardona does not have a website so what are you referring to? Contemporaneous really has nothing to do with differentiation of the actual content of a persons thesis. Graves etc could be wrong on every other point eccept the ones quoted, but without the actual support of citation its just hand waving to assert the quote is a bad reference without differentiating specifically.What you seem to be assuming , since its not "pre ww2" its is not very valid as a mythological exegesis. Also Talbott has indeed referenced Massey ,while still adknowledging his controversial and irradic nature. [see The Saturn Myth] Lets not treat the references as "one homogeneous group "
It is not a false analogy. The Ancient Wisdom, aka the Perennial Philosophy, the World Religion etc, is essentially spiritual. Unless one understand the worldview of the (educated/intelligent) ancients then one will only be projecting ones own preconceptions back onto them. They viewed the whole of creation as one organic (i.e. living) whole.
They, the ancients, were fully aware that time was cyclical (as is everything in the Unviverse) and that periodically something nasty happened which wrought havoc on Earth. To them this was part of the natural process (involution and evolution) and nothing to do with sin or punishment.
Again had you read the relevent Saturn theory info you would be aware that , "creation " in the myths has nothing to do with the "universe" as a"whole". Also "time" was not something man was "aware " before "creation" which the ancients where alive to "witness" ,if the model ,which you havent read , is correct. You must indeed be projecting your "preconceptions" on this topic because you dont seem to be differentiating the relevent differences , simply asserting your own. If the "ancients" didnt believe it was "punishment" for "sin" , why did they respond in terror and appeasement ? Sacrificial rites where a direct result of these reponses. But lets return to "creation for a moment. observe:

"The age of Saturn means the transition from primeval chaos to
order, from non-differentiation to diversity, from formlessness
to form, from inactivity to activity, from no-time to time, from
a pre-dawn glow to a cycle of day and night. That is what the
archetypal "creation" myth is about, and Saturn is the creator-
king. But the meanings of the ancient words need to be
clarified. What does "formless" mean, for example? What does
"chaos", or its "yawning" aspect, mean? Present experience
offers no basis for visualizing any of these concepts in terms of
the archaic STORY itself."

You see , this is one of the online papers actually on the website at :

http://www.kronia.com/thoth/ThoIII16.txt

Feel free and read the rest and liberate yourself from false assumptions [example , creation was viewed as one organic whole" etc.} , so we can have a more relevent to the actual issues discussion, O.K.

The quote from Ayn Rand which you use in your signature 'I am, therefore I think' is pertinent in that the Universe and everything in it is consciousness. The Ancient Wisdom explains this clearly enough and it, or at least elements of it, can be found in e.g. Plato, Pythagoras, Qabala, Sufism, Hinduism, Daoism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Alchemy, Mithraism, Egyptian 'myth', Mayan, etc, etc.
Sorry ,Im certain you havent read the relevent quotes context. This is a statement that was coined to counter the very thing you just asserted. The primacy of the fact that ,i first and foremost exist as an objectivly real entity with identity , the essential quality of which is reason ,which is a volitional activity related to consiousness as secondary , and dependant on the primacy of existence. This is a counter to your and Descartes assertion of the primacy of consciousness. Concepts arrive from the sensory input of objective existents first and foremost.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

Grey Cloud
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Cautionary Note

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:13 am

To Nick C. thanks for the considered and reasoned response in which you raise some good points.

I agree with your summary re the trauma of going from peaceful/normal existence to post-catastrophic existence. It is precisely this upheaval which causes the knowledge of the Ancient Wisdom (AW) to become corrupted (in the sense of altered or changed) or completely lost.
This is how mythological tales become altered over time. And it also accounts for the various religions around the world (they are variations on a common theme). Our (modern man) problem/task is to try to strip away the corruption/alteration and attempt to get down to the fundamental story/point. This is where reading eclectically pays dividends. It enables one to gain a broad overview where one can see the commonality in various world traditions and to spot the differences. These can then be investigated in detail. One will never find all the answers in one book whether that book be the Bible or Thunderbolts of the Gods.
The AW is never completely lost and mythology etc has many tales of some guy/god walking into town and teaching the people maths, astronomy, writing etc.
This knowledge is nearly always passed on in a twofold manner: the exoteric for the masses and the esoteric for those prepared to study and work at it. An example of this can be found in the Gospel of Mark where Jesus explicitly tells the disciples that he teaches the masses in parable but will give the key to the parables to the disciples. This is what 'casting pearls before swine' is about.
I've mentioned in my other posts that I have no problem with catastrophe per se - the evidence as you said is there. Nor do I have any problem with a catastrophe being the result of plasma discharges. Where I do have problems is with any suggestion that this catastrophe was a one-off or that only plasma discharge is responsible for catastrophe(s). There are other catastrophe theories such as bolide strike, crustal displacement, pole-shift and even ancient nuclear war (as per the Vedas). These other theories need to be addressed or compared and contrasted.
One slight (or pedantic) quibble I have is over the phrase: 'the end of the world'. I prefer the phrase: 'the end of A world'.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

Grey Cloud
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: The Crowns of Sages and Warrior-Kings

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:42 am

In both images the head of the Greek god Apollo is placed within a radiant sphere. Of course, Of course, popular modern day myths say that Apollo was the Sun, an identification that evaporate the moment you begin to examine the figure with any seriousnesssay that Apollo was the Sun, an identification that evaporate the moment you begin to examine the figure with any seriousness. The cult of Apollo is already acknowledged to be a precise counterpart to the cult of the Latin Mars. But quite apart from this undeniable correspondence, no stretch is needed to identify the god as the axle of the cosmic wheel, since his name Aegeius, makes the identity explicit: the Greek word means "axle." The god's radiate crown is thus constituted of the spokes of a cosmic wheel.
1. Apollo is Roman not Greek. This is not pedantry but as I have mentioned in another post it is important to get as close to the original as possible. The helps to eliminate later embellishments to the story/tale. The Roman versions of the gods were similar but not identical to the Greek counterparts.
2. It is not just ' popular modern day myths' which identify Apollo(n) with the Sun, the Greeks and Romans did too.
3. 'The cult of Apollo is already acknowledged to be a precise counterpart to the cult of the Latin Mars'. By whom and how so? The Greek Apollon pre-dates the founding of Rome. I would like a reference which equates Apollo with Mars or Apollon with Ares.
4. I may be wrong on this one but 'Aegeius' looks latin rather than Greek (it is preceded by 'Apollo). If you check out:
http://www.theoi.com/Cult/ApollonTitles.html
you will find a pretty comprehensive list of Apollons titles and epithets but you will not find one relating to an axle.

With regard to the image which appears under '... to which we might add the Roman version (Mithras)' - this is not Mithras. It is Apollo (or possibly Sol Invictus. For Mithras images see:
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=mithras&gbv=2
The image your image is from is 3rd row down, 3rd from left. Or the 11th image. Note the serpent at the bottom of the scene and the twin serpents on the caduceus.
(The academics call this a banquet but one cone of chips between 5 people isn't exactly my idea of a slap-up meal).

The 'conjunction of Venus and Mars is quite interesting. According to theoi.com:
http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AresLoves.html
the earliest version we have is from Homer. If you scroll down the page you will find the full story from the Odyssey. There is much symbology.
You will no doubt notice that Ares/Mars and Apollon/Apollo are two distinct actors in this scenario. There again so are Helios and Apollon.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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