Dating of events...

Plasma formations in the ancient sky. The role of planets as charged bodies in these formations. Ground-rules for drawing reliable conclusions. A new approach to the mythic archetypes: is a unified theory of world mythology possible?
Millennium
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:52 am

Dating of events...

Unread post by Millennium » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:36 pm

David, Michael, Plasmatic, all,

does Talbott have a date (or dates) for the 'Celestial Planetary/Plasma Dance' he is describing here? [When the Earth, Mars, Venus and Saturn were co-orbiting the Sun in the same orbital position.] and a date or period for the ending of, or transition out from, that configuration?

Peratt et al report their "High-Current Z_Pinch in Antiquity" as from the "Early Bronze Age", 3500-2000 BC in standard 'scientific' reckoning.

User avatar
MGmirkin
Moderator
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA
Contact:

Dating of events...

Unread post by MGmirkin » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:50 pm

Millennium wrote:David, Michael, Plasmatic, all,

does Talbott have a date (or dates) for the 'Celestial Planetary/Plasma Dance' he is describing here? [When the Earth, Mars, Venus and Saturn were co-orbiting the Sun in the same orbital position.] and a date or period for the ending of, or transition out from, that configuration?

Peratt et al report their "High-Current Z_Pinch in Antiquity" as from the "Early Bronze Age", 3500-2000 BC in standard 'scientific' reckoning.
That I don't know off hand, though I think that Dwardu may make some inferences in his books God Star / Flare Star.

Though they may not be definitive, especially when talking about lengths of time in antiquity (especially the time "before time began," though that might be skipping ahead a bit; see the links above from Dwardu to see what I mean, as I think he goes into some bit of the time before "timekeeping"), as some ancient texts use days and years apparently interchangeably (it seems like timekeeping hadn't quite solidified as a practice yet?)...

If the Saturn hypothesis is to be believed, this was a result of the fact that until such time as the pre-break-up of the Saturnian system, Saturn was the principal, unchanging, dim[mer] illumination to the world, and Earth shared a common rotational axis with the other components of the system (a bit like a string of pearls). It was, according to the Saturn hypothesis (if I recall correctly), only during this later epoch that non-uniform illumination on the disc of Saturn (ye olde sun), and later illumination from Sol (the sun) and our revolution thereabouts that initiated the day-night cycle and the cyclical counting of time (days, years, etc.).

From my limited perspective, I'd tend to think it would be hard to speak in terms of concrete cyclical time frames as we think of them today, when the ancient texts themselves may not. Now, whether other lines of inquiry (archaeology, etc.) might render more concrete dates or interpretations in that regard, again, I don't know. (Still a bit new to it all, myself.)

Perhaps someone else can chime in a bit? :D

~Michael Gmirkin

P.S. I've heard a very loose 10,000 yrs, appx, here and there. But definitely don't take that as definitive. Again, Dwardu's books (current and forthcoming), I think try to deal with some of these issues...?
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

Plasmatic
Posts: 800
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm

Dating of events...

Unread post by Plasmatic » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:33 pm

Not much I can add to Michaels comments to M ,but There is definatly no uniform measure to apply in this context of epochal events and such. What we do know is as Dave and comp. have pointed out in THUNDERBOLTS OF THE GODS , :

"It needs to be understood as well that the globally recurring themes appear to be as old as human writing.All of the common signs and symbols we shall review appear to preceed the full flowering of civilization."
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

Grey Cloud
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:02 pm

PerattTPSv31-2003clr.pdf (snappy title) states that he is looking at petroglyphs in the 10,000-2,000 BCE. That's in section IX Petroglyphs. Only read it this week but can't remember where I got it from. Anyone help?

My own research into catastrophes would put the Mars/Venus one around 4380 BCE give or take several centuries. (To me at least, the Saturn thing is probably much older).

1. The Egyptologist RA Schwaller De Lubicz assigns a date of 60 BCE to the start of the Age of Pisces. Not sure what Egyptian source he got that from.
If you back-pedal from there 2,160 years, it gives you 2220 BCE as the start of Aries. Another 2,160 gives 4380 BCE as the start of Taurus. [Great Year = 25,920 years, divided by 12 for Gt Month = 2,160. Note diferent authors may give slightly different figures but all in same ball-park]
2. Mayan Calendar ends in 2012 CE. Mayans give Gt Year as 25,630 (they divided it into 5 x 5,126). The calendar lasts 5,126 years so: 5126 - 2012 = 3114 BCE whch is its start date.
If you take the Mayan date of 2012 CE and subtract 2,160 years you get 148 BCE; 148 + 2,1260 = 2208 BCE for start of the Age of Taurus.

Just as a tie-in with the Maya, the Vedic tradition has the death of Lord Krishna at 3102 BCE.

In astrology Aries is ruled by Mars and Taurus is ruled by Venus. Aries is a Fire sign and Taurus an Earth sign.


Plutarch's Isis and Osiris. In a throw-away comment, Plutarch mentions that according to Eudoxus, Typhon (Egyptian Set or Seth) had 56 angles and that Pythagorus assigns the number 56 to Typhon.
Pythagoras did not assign numbers without reason. So: 5 + 6 = 11, 1+1 = 2, hmm, the Duad which is fundamental opposition or polarity. Try a different tack. 56 divided by 2 = 28. There are 28 days in a lunar month. Convert lunar month to month of Gt Year and two months/ages back from Aries(when Pythagorus was around) and we end up in Gemini which isn't right. What about 7 x 8?
7 notes in the musical scale (invented by Pythagorus), 8 gives the octave. Hmm, could be viewed as saying that when Typhon turns up or a zodiacal age changes, everything changes gear.
Incidentally, taking 60 BCE and doing the 2,160 year steps gives the following start dates:
Aries 2220, Taurus 4380, Gemini 6540, Cancer 8700, Leo 10860, Virgo 13020, Libra 15180, Scorpio 17340, Sagittarius 19500, Capricornus 21660, Aquarius 2100 CE.
If you do the basic numerology thing and sum each date, eg, Aries 2 + 2 + 2 + 0 = 6. You will find that they all come to 6 with the exception of Aquarius which gets 3. Aquarius is the only zodiacal sign featuring a human. The Triad represents harmony. The Law of Three is the fundamental of the Universe. Two opposited guided by an intelligent principle.
Six is the number of the Earth (planet and element) as it is regaded as a cube (6 sides).
3 x3 = 9, the number of man(kind). As in the bible with the so-called number of the beast 666 and the number, 144,000, who will be saved when JC returns as per book Revelation.
Funny old world innit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudoxus_of_Cnidus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorus

Another throw-away comment by Plutarch was that the Greeks call the ocean 'the tears of Kronos'. The last water sign before Pisces was Cancer, c.8700 BCE.

No need to set your clocks by any of this, it's just me thinking aloud.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

User avatar
MGmirkin
Moderator
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by MGmirkin » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:59 am

Grey Cloud wrote:PerattTPSv31-2003clr.pdf (snappy title) states that he is looking at petroglyphs in the 10,000-2,000 BCE. That's in section IX Petroglyphs. Only read it this week but can't remember where I got it from. Anyone help?
A. L. Peratt, Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity, Trans. Plasma Sci. v.31, n.6, 2003

Located here:

(Published papers)
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/papers.html
-alternately-
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/NearEarth.html

(Direct link)
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloadsC ... 003clr.pdf

Toward the bottom of the page. Amongst plenty of others.

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

Grey Cloud
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:01 pm

Michael, thanks for posting the links. My short-term memory is shot. My short-term memory is shot.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

User avatar
MGmirkin
Moderator
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by MGmirkin » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:44 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Michael, thanks for posting the links. My short-term memory is shot. My short-term memory is shot.
Is your short-term memory shot? ;) *kidding!*

~Michael Gmrkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

User avatar
MGmirkin
Moderator
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by MGmirkin » Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:08 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Plutarch's Isis and Osiris. In a throw-away comment, Plutarch mentions that according to Eudoxus, Typhon (Egyptian Set or Seth) had 56 angles and that Pythagorus assigns the number 56 to Typhon.

Pythagoras did not assign numbers without reason. So: [Snip ...]
Let me simplify for you a bit (without alluding to astrology, numerology, etc.), Typhon was the monstrous enemy battled by Zeus, or some approximation thereof (to oversimplify). Dave Talbott et al have (I think?) identified this motif with with the cosmic dragon, world-serpent, etc. Likewise, with a plasma physical process that may have occurred in the "heavens" in ancient times.

Now, if you take a look at the paper(s) from Peratt in researching petroglyphs and running supercomputer simulations, you'll note that he talks in terms of the number of Birkeland current filaments in play at various points of this simulation.

(Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity Part II: Directionality and Source)
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloadsC ... 4-2007.pdf
Peratt wrote:The most common pairing or tripling, as determined from petroglyph surveys, is 56 (by far the most common), 49, 47, 41, 39, 33, 30, followed by a large number of 28-ray petroglyphs and other structures. The converging continues through 20, 16, 8, 7, 6, and 4, the latter being the minimum number of Birkeland currents recorded but in great frequency.

(Pg. 23 of the PDF)
Peratt wrote:Fig. 66 is a virtual image of the intense auroral plasma column as determined from FOV directivity, angle of inclination, and GPS surveys of several thousands petroglyph “pixels.” Two egg-shaped plasmoids are found at 306 000 and 266 000 km, respectively The farthest limit of the reconstruction (top) is located 701 000 km from Earth. The number of Birkeland currents is 56 at the top, converging to 28 at the plasmoids and eventually converging and twisting into four large filaments. If the current oscillates or is sporadic [36, p. 34], the four can separate back to 56 filaments. Whether 56 or 4, or some number in-between, the filaments flow over and past the rotating Earth.
(Pg. 25 of the PDF)

If I recall correctly, this parallels "dense plasma focus" or "plasma gun" research that shows that the maximum number of filaments generally obtained was 56 spaced around the periphery of the "barrel" of the plasma gun. However, in some cases, the 56 filaments would pair up into 28 braided pairs, etc. So, it's not entirely unreasonable to think that plasma in space in such a configuration might also display a similar 56- / 28-fold symmetry.

I hate to speculate (my own limited opinion) that assigning the number 56 to Typhon may have been a somewhat literal "counting" of the heads or filaments of the perceived "monster?" IE, if the "monster" was essentially a large Birkeland current or large sheath that was subdivided into relatively equally spaced filaments, then the results of "dense plasma focus" experiments might make 56, or 28 "natural numbers" one might expect to find in depictions and/or written accounts of the "monster(s)"?

But, it's probably way too early in the discussion of the archetypes to get into that kind of detail, since the archetypes haven't even been fully enumerated, yet. So, I'll leave it there, and hope I'm not too far off-base in mentioning it. Perhaps Dave can either elaborate or postpone the discussion on that for a later time.

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

Grey Cloud
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:17 am

Michael,
Thanks for yet another link.
I'm intrigued by the quotes in your post and I'll read it as soon as I have an eye free. Pythagorean numerology is extremely complex and way over my head for the most part. What I do know is that he learned it in Egypt (the numerology not the over my head part).
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

User avatar
MGmirkin
Moderator
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Beaverton, Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by MGmirkin » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:16 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Michael,
Thanks for yet another link. I'm intrigued by the quotes in your post and I'll read it as soon as I have an eye free. Pythagorean numerology is extremely complex and way over my head for the most part. What I do know is that he learned it in Egypt (the numerology not the over my head part).
I had also meant to include quotes from the article you had mentioned previously (I forget, at the moment, if it was in this thread or another), but the Adobe Reader plug-in had frozen while downloading several PDFs:

(Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity)
http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloadsC ... 003clr.pdf
A. Megaampere Particle Beams: 56- and 28-Fold Symmetry

A solid beam of charged particles tends to form hollow cylinders that may then filament into individual currents [9]. When observed from below, the pattern consists of circles, circular rings of bright spots, and intense electrical discharge streamers connecting the inner structure to the outer structure.

[...]

The wavelength of filamentation depends on the cylindrical thickness of a hollow beam [9]. In Fig. 45, the beam thickness is 157 m while the beam radius is 11 mm. In the subgigampere range, the maximum number of self-pinched filaments allowed before the cylindrical magnetic field will no longer split into “islands” for the parameters above has been found to be 56 [53].

[...]

Modeling of 56 parallel electrical currents in two and three dimensions was carried out with a large-scale MHD code [54]. These results verify that individual current filaments were maintained by their azimuthal self magnetic fields, a property lost by increasing the number of electrical current filaments.

The scaling is constant for a given hollow beam thickness, from microampere beams to multimegaampere beams and beam diameters of millimeters to thousands of kilometers [9], that is, the same filamentation and vortices apply to auroral plasmas.

Because the electrical current-carrying filaments are parallel, they attract via the Biot-Savart force law, in pairs but sometimes three [8]. This reduces the 56 filaments over time to 28 filaments, hence the 56 and 28 fold symmetry patterns.

In actuality, during the pairing, any number of filaments less than 56 may be recorded as pairing is not synchronized to occur uniformly. However, there are “temporarily stable” (longer state durations) at 42, 35, 28, 14, 7, and 4 filaments. Each pair formation is a vortex that becomes increasing complex, as do the instabilities in today’s auroras as they decrease in number by merger.

[...]

Fig. 45. Steel witness plate with filament hole locations.

[...]

B. Records From Antiquity With 56- and 28-Fold Symmetry

The number of 56 and 28 fold symmetry objects from antiquity is manifest. These range from concentrical petroglyphs around the world to geoglyphs (stone-rings), megaliths, and other constructs. The most renowned of the 56 fold symmetric megaliths is Stonehenge.

Stonehenge is a unique structure; a megalithic ruin (51.22 N, 0.167 W) located west of the town of Amesbury, Wiltshire, U.K. [55]–[63].

It is concentric is shape having two outer banks of earth, approximately 100min diameter, circular, with gaps. Adjacent the surrounding banks are circular and half-circular ditches, each with a radius of 5–6 m and each having a three-concentric pattern. Within the banks are the Aubrey Holes; now-filled marker holes equally spaced at 56 points around a great circle that cut across the small concentric ditches.

[...]
(Pages 16-17 of the PDF)

Peratt has plenty more to say, but again, it seems the 56-fold and 28-fold cylindrical [cylindrical cross-sectional?] symmetry once again becomes important.
C. “Old” Concentric Petroglyphs and Pictographs With 56- and 28-Fold Symmetry

The “old concentrics” are among the most ancient of petroglyphs and pictographs. The carvings have long since reverted to the coloration of the rock patina onto which they were embedded. The paintings have leached into the rock, greatly dulling
their appearance.

As examples of 56-fold symmetric concentrics, we shall take three representative examples. The first is one of the opening plates of “Pictographs and Petroglyphs of The Oregon Country,” by Loring and Loring [47]. In particular, plate III, a photograph of their Site 34, 4 O’Clock Rapids on the East Rim, Klickitat County,Washington (45 42.776 N, 120 20.970W, 92 m) (this petroglyph is one that the Lorings described as “outstanding and appeared to be very old.” The Lorings, from 1964 to 1968, took many photographs and rubbings of the deeply carved petroglyphs flooded by the J. Day Dam in April 1968).

The second example is a pictograph downstream of 4 O’Clock Rapids at J. Day bar, the Loring’s site 29 (45 44 N, 120 41 W).

The third example is from northern Arizona (35 N, 109 W), 1450 km SE of the Columbia River Basin.

In Fig. 46 are overlays of these three petroglyphs on a reconstruction image of Stonehenge [65]. Each petroglyph shows slightly different detail. The top left petroglyph has apparently captured a later time image of the aurora as some of the outer dots are starting to undergo a diocotron instability rotational pairing as was also recorded on the witness plate in Fig. 45.

Both of the top overlays have recorded the inter-filament electrical streamers between the inner dot circles (electrical currents in forward synchrotron radiation light emission). The bottom-left petroglyph has recorded the streamers between the two outer dots. (The 4 O’Clock Rapids petroglyph is about 60 cm in diameter while Stonehenge is approximately 100 m in diameter).
(Page 18 of the PDF)

It seems, again, that 56-fold symmetry is a common motif in ancient petroglyphs, and possibly also in megalithic structures?
XVIII. DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSION

A discovery that the basic petroglyph morphologies are the same as those recorded in extremely high-energy-density discharges has opened up a means to unravel the origin of these apparently crude, misdrawn, and jumbled figures found in uncounted numbers around the Earth.

Drawn in heteromac style (Fig. 12), these ancient patterns could mimic and replicate high-energy phenomena that would be recorded on a nonerasable plasma display screen. Many petroglyphs, apparently recorded several millennia ago, have a plasma discharge or instability counterpart, some on a one-to-one or overlay basis. More striking is that the images recorded on rock are the only images found in extreme energy density experiments; no other morphology types or patterns are observed [46], [67].

The instability is that associated with an intense current-carrying column of plasma which undergoes both sausage and helix deformations. Such a current would be produced if the solar flux from the Sun were to increase one or two magnitudes or if another source of plasma were to enter the solar system.

[...]
(Page 19 of the PDF)

Anyway, his professional assessment appears to indicate distinct similarity to high energy discharge configurations which lead to very specific instabilities / identifiable structures / morphologies. The 56- or 28-fold symmetry is just one of 'em, apparently. Plenty of interesting tidbits in the paper. Pretty cool really.

So, if the "monster" Typhon is identified with the serpent / dragon motif, and if it's being connected to some kind of Birkeland current-like or cylindrical plasma sheath like structure seen in the sky, a 28-fold or 56-fold aspect might not be an unexpected designation to apply to such a mythic "beast". Whether that's the source of the numerology you mentioned or its Egyptian counterpart, I can't really say. It's perhaps just an interesting synchronicity? :?

Keeping in mind, I don't think Peratt has ever stated anything with relation to mythology, etc. etc. So, that's just a bit of my own opinion. Granted, opinion doesn't necessarily account for much. Just something to chew on at least, if there's any links to be found there.

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

Lloyd
Posts: 4433
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Chronology

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed May 07, 2008 10:56 am

- In the Crowns Part 2 thread I mentioned my interest in learning in what chronological order all the ancient apparitions & events occurred, from the beginning of the human race on Earth till the end of the Saturn Age. This seems to be the thread to really discuss that. As I said in part, my understanding of discussions of the Saturn Model is that:
1. Saturn was originally seen as a dim reddish ball that stayed near the horizon, I guess like the way the sun is now seen from within the Arctic and Antarctic circles, there was no sun and no stars or planets were visible, besides Saturn, Earth was in a constant dark twilight with a reddish tint to the sky,
2. then Saturn went to the stationary polar position and turned a golden color,
3. then it became surrounded by a circular cloud, the ouroboros, which was Venus circling it,
4. then Venus moved to the center of Saturn's face,
5. Mars also moved in and out of the same position as Venus, but I don't know if it was already there before Venus arrived,
6. then Earth flipped over and Jupiter was then at the stationary polar position, there may have been several such flips, [says Cardona, I think]
7. then the system fell apart and the Great Flood occurred due to the polar vortex letting go of its great store of water.
Dating
- Now I'll assign loose dates & motifs to each event:
1. Before 9,000 BP - before human speech & before writing - there were no Saturn motifs that I recall hearing about, it was the timeless era,
2. 9,000 BP - Saturn at the polar position was depicted as a plain circle[?],
3. 7,000 BP - Venus, ejected from Saturn, was a smoking comet circling Saturn, as the ouroboros, snake eating its own tail,
4 & 5. 6,000 BP - Venus, Mars, the polar column and the cross emanating from Venus on Saturn's face, the crescent around Saturn, provided many motifs & ability to measure time, human speech & writing developed, I guess it was during this time that the Saturn system came to about the orbit of the asteroids around the sun,
6. 5,000 BP - Jupiter replaced Saturn as the dominant god when Earth flipped over,
7. 4,500 BP - end of the Saturnian Golden Age with the Great Flood & the Ice Age,
- I'd like to see Dave's, Dwardu's and Wal's versions of the chronology to see how much agreement they have with each other. And I'd prefer to replace this one with theirs.
More Accurate Dating?
- Does anyone else have better dates to assign to these events and or other events that should be added?
- Velikovsky's chronology had Venus close to Earth at 3,500 BP and Mars close at 2,600 BP, but Dwardu et al have pushed their times back to before the Great Flood and don't consider Venus and Mars to have been actually involved in the Exodus or the Trojan War. Other than that, Velikovsky's revised chronology seems to have a lot of good info, such as reducing much of the chronology of ancient Egypt by 500 years or so etc.

electrodogg1
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:20 am
Location: La Quinta, California

Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by electrodogg1 » Wed May 07, 2008 11:10 am

Lloyd,

Interesting. I think that linguists generally assign 50,000 BP for the development of human speech. You may be in the ball park with 9,000 BP for writing. Evidently there are some very old written commercial records in Sumer which may be that old.
Best,

David

Lloyd
Posts: 4433
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu May 08, 2008 7:57 pm

Julian Jaynes [?] researched early human speech, such as in the Iliad and other ancient writings, and concluded at least tentatively that humans didn't think in those days the way we do now. He determined that modern thinking began a few hundred years after Homer, maybe by 2500 BP. He said earlier humans seemed to hear voices which they felt obliged to obey without question. Cardona or one of the other catastrophist historians once stated that early humans, such as in the age of myths, seemed to be incapable of lying or deception. Jaynes also described how speech probably came about, starting with names of objects and people and with voices from elders repeating in the minds of their children. Ted Holden's site has good info on Jaynes' theory etc.

User avatar
nick c
Moderator
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:12 pm
Location: connecticut

Re: Dating of events...

Unread post by nick c » Fri May 09, 2008 8:41 am

electrodogg1 wrote:
Interesting. I think that linguists generally assign 50,000 BP for the development of human speech. You may be in the ball park with 9,000 BP for writing. Evidently there are some very old written commercial records in Sumer which may be that old.
I would recommend that before accepting these dates, keep in mind, that they were arrived at by researchers working under uniformitarian assumptions.

Lloyd wrote:
Julian Jaynes [?] researched early human speech, such as in the Iliad and other ancient writings, and concluded at least tentatively that humans didn't think in those days the way we do now. He determined that modern thinking began a few hundred years after Homer, maybe by 2500 BP
I am a big fan of Julian Jaynes. "The Emergence of Conciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" is a landmark book. The first third of the book is remarkable for the description of what conciousness is and is not, and how it is 'created' through language. The radical conclusions (conciousness is a recent human development) that he comes to in the remaining two sections may or may not be acceptable to most readers. Keep in mind that Julian Jaynes and his followers were/are strict uniformitarians. The irony is that the theory dovetails nicely into most of the modern catastrophic theories. Jaynes attributes the demise of the bicameral mode in humans to catastrophe and resulting mass migrations in the 2nd millenium BCE. Again, his time frame is strictly mainstream (uniformitarian.)
Does this sound familiar?
Vast geological catastrophes occurred. Civilizations perished. Half the world's population became refugees. And wars, previously sporadic, came with hastening and ferocious frequency as this important millenium hunched itself sickly into its dark and bloody close.

p209, "The Origin of Conciousness..."
For anyone interested in further reading on Jaynes:
[url2=http://www.julianjaynes.org/]The Julian Jaynes Society[/url2]

Nick

David Talbott
Site Admin
Posts: 336
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:11 pm

Re: Chronology

Unread post by David Talbott » Fri May 09, 2008 8:56 am

Lloyd wrote:- In the Crowns Part 2 thread I mentioned my interest in learning in what chronological order all the ancient apparitions & events occurred, from the beginning of the human race on Earth till the end of the Saturn Age. This seems to be the thread to really discuss that. As I said in part, my understanding of discussions of the Saturn Model is that:
1. Saturn was originally seen as a dim reddish ball that stayed near the horizon, I guess like the way the sun is now seen from within the Arctic and Antarctic circles, there was no sun and no stars or planets were visible, besides Saturn, Earth was in a constant dark twilight with a reddish tint to the sky,
2. then Saturn went to the stationary polar position and turned a golden color,
3. then it became surrounded by a circular cloud, the ouroboros, which was Venus circling it,
4. then Venus moved to the center of Saturn's face,
5. Mars also moved in and out of the same position as Venus, but I don't know if it was already there before Venus arrived....
[snip]
One thing I've tried to avoid is dwelling on debatable issues of chronology. Saturn as originally a dim red ball on the horizon is, to me, debatable. The idea that the Egyptian "sun-god" Atum roamed "to and fro," looking for a resting place (before he found it, and initiated the "creation"), is about as far as I would go in discussing position and "movement" prior to the phase of the central and motionless luminary. The worldwide tradition of the primeval, motionless sun is, of course, bedrock.

Both the original idea and the language of the Polar Configuration were my own, before others took up the cause. But others have added enough to, 1) provide crucial support for the hypothesis, and 2 ) to complicate matters in terms of unresolved issues. I've always felt that discussion should focus first on principles that can be readily clarified. And on these the best researchers who've taken up the concept of the Polar Configuration will virtually always agree.

Since it was I who first stated the claim that the stars were not seen in the primordial epoch, I'll stand by that one as well. And so too the connection of the comet Venus to the Oroboros or circular serpent, which also originated with me. This last one underscores the need to clarify "levels of confidence." The Oroboros is bedrock (highest confidence). The theme is global and its contexts can be reconstructed in detail. The role of Venus as eye, heart, and soul of the universal sovereign is also bedrock, while the issue of exactly how or when it appeared in that position is more speculative.

What we want to avoid is mixing levels of confidence such that insubstantial conjectures erode the interest in foundational principles, since the latter can be substantiated at the highest levels of confidence.

David Talbott

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest