"Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby David Talbott » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:08 am

First a response to Plasmatic: I particularly liked the part in your response to the effect that "we'll have to agree to disagree." :)

It's one thing to argue about facts. Presenting facts and the principles that unify them can be very constructive. But when it comes to our own sense of spiritual identity and the implications thereof, our acceptance of the life principles has nothing to do with the principles of logic — the groundrules — applied to the historical reconstruction. You will either recognize the internal reference, or you will not. You will either speak for it, live it, be it in the world, or you will not. There is no Aristotelean logic to apply in the recognition, "I am not a body, and neither are you." And if our true identity is spiritual, not merely physical, the spiritual principles that reflect this internal recognition have nothing to do with ancient planetary gods. For this reason, we dishonor the best in a religion when we attack its truly spiritual content as a reification of the Saturn Myth.

As for the egocentric definition of love you gave, my only suggestion would be to put as much distance between yourself and the person who suggested that to you as you possibly can. It's the first time I've ever heard someone actually confess what is surely too often practiced — love as a bargaining tool.

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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby David Talbott » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:28 am

To Grey Cloud:
The challenge to you was not about Heracles, it was about the archetypes, defined as indisputable and widespread points of agreement between far flung cultures: warrior-hero whose identity cannot be separated from his weapon; warrior-hero whose weapon is a thunderbolt; warrior-hero who saves the world from chaos monsters; warrior-hero born from the mother goddess (or beautiful princess, the later cultural echo of the goddess); warrior-hero who consorts with the mother goddess; warrior-hero who takes the form of a pillar or "raises up the sky"; warrior-hero laboring on behalf of a great king or celestial prototype of kings; warrior-hero who "irrigates" the land; warrior-hero's deadly rage; warrior-hero whose crown of glory is the radiance of the mother goddess. And several hundred more.

In examining the archetypes, it is most useful to let the earliest sources point the way, since they will be the closest in time to the events that provoked human imagination.

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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby Plasmatic » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:44 am

As for the egocentric definition of love you gave, my only suggestion would be to put as much distance between yourself and the person who suggested that to you as you possibly can. It's the first time I've ever heard someone actually confess what is surely too often practiced — love as a bargaining tool.


:) , Ill take that literally as a complement, no sarcasm intended! Ill just leave you a few words in quotes as well and say Its been fun...

Love, friendship, respect, admiration are the emotional response of one man to the virtues of another, the spiritual payment given in exchange for the personal, selfish pleasure which one man derives from the virtues of another man’s character. Only a brute or an altruist would claim that the appreciation of another person’s virtues is an act of selflessness, that as far as one’s own selfish interest and pleasure are concerned, it makes no difference whether one deals with a genius or a fool, whether one meets a hero or a thug, whether one marries an ideal woman or a slut. In spiritual issues, a trader is a man who does not seek to be loved for his weaknesses or flaws, only for his virtues, and who does not grant his love to the weaknesses or the flaws of others, only to their virtues.
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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby David Talbott » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:32 am

From "Plasmatic," quoting from Ayn Rand I presume?
Love, friendship, respect, admiration are the emotional response of one man to the virtues of another, the spiritual payment given in exchange for the personal, selfish pleasure which one man derives from the virtues of another man’s character. Only a brute or an altruist would claim that the appreciation of another person’s virtues is an act of selflessness, that as far as one’s own selfish interest and pleasure are concerned, it makes no difference whether one deals with a genius or a fool, whether one meets a hero or a thug, whether one marries an ideal woman or a slut. In spiritual issues, a trader is a man who does not seek to be loved for his weaknesses or flaws, only for his virtues, and who does not grant his love to the weaknesses or the flaws of others, only to their virtues.


James, let's go back to that earlier part about "agreeing to disagree." :)

By all means appreciate, respect, associate or collaborate with, and honor those whose strengths you feel most comfortable with. But see the innocent and universal spark of spirit in everyone, and wish them well with no conditions. There's no sacrifice in that. And perhaps on occasion you will find that a gift given without conditions sacrifices nothing either.
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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby StevenJay » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:59 pm

David Talbott wrote:By all means appreciate, respect, associate or collaborate with, and honor those whose strengths you feel most comfortable with. But see the innocent and universal spark of spirit in everyone, and wish them well with no conditions. There's no sacrifice in that. And perhaps on occasion you will find that a gift given without conditions sacrifices nothing either.

Well said, James and David. :)

As I see it, the primary "condition" that defines what we do is, ultimately, a most selfish (and I cast no negative connotations upon the term "selfish") one; to feel good.
It's all about perception.
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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby mharratsc » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:24 pm

I feel as though I tread on foreign soil here, but I feel I have to ask this question:

What part does instinct play in all this? From the creation of archetypes, down to the 'spiritual' discussion towards the end?

Don't get me wrong- I have my own convictions regarding spirituality, as far as they go. It is not my intent to question anyone's ideas regarding spirituality, either! Those, I feel, are a personal choice free to be made by each and every sentient being.

My question is- has anyone considered- throughout the course of research in comparative mythology, religious/cultural history, etc- whether latent human instincts have played any role in the development of our species, either emotionally, sociologically, or culturally?

Just curious, and it seemed as though the question might have at least some bearing on the topics being discussed.

Also, if you would be so kind please- bear in mind that I am a complete layman regarding these topics! Esoteric references will be completely lost on me! :?

Respects,

Mike H.
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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby Orlando » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:49 pm

I like brutal honesty! :D

Here's what I understood, some guys all over the world witnessed something in the 'Heavens', and this vision moved them so deeply that it drove them to carve these images to preserve what they experienced.

Given the effort that was put into these petroglyphs I am more than convinced that these celestial images caused a world wide consciousness event.

A single event that made people not interpret an observation but experience it with all their senses.
Tie that into the all the Experimental Data that The Plasma Sciences have matched in the Lab the very things we observe in space not to mention the symbols and petroglyphs and what are left with is to accept what the EU is presenting or not accept it.

The choice is either based on Opinion oriented belief retention.
Or Undisputable evidence.

Even a Child can see the similarities between a galaxy and a whirlpool or hurricane cloud.
We should abandon what we think we know and try to understand what we feel when we feel it and why we are experiencing it.

I did not get the Impression that DT's video is supposed to answer all the belief structures of mythology with contemporary understandings, only that mythology is just a form of storytelling that emotionally moves people to remember important lessons, parents and grandparents do it all the time when teaching life lessons to their children.

But that's the way I have come to learn about life, I listen to people when I talk to them and I wish to feel what they are saying as opposed to just listening to them, this is effective communication.

Socrates in Platos Republic stated that ' even the dull and the ignorant have a story to tell' add the comments that Shakespear mentioned how every story is based on human experience and we can clearly see that only the acceptance of a theory by all can make it unified not the actual theory.

Perception based belief structures cannot be adhered to in a dynamic learning environment, Life itself is dynamic, learning is Dynamic, we cannot afford to Believe anymore we must experience, learn, adapt and live it.

We are not the same as we were ten years ago, things do not change, it is the way we feel what we experience that changes.

Peace
Or
Teach me a fact and I'll learn; Tell me the truth and I'll Believe;
Tell me a Story and it will live in my Heart forever--

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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby MassInertia » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:14 pm

Hi all,

I've recently watched "Alien Sky," and while I find certain aspects plausible (such as the common origin of dragon myths being related to Birkeland currents, or other plasma effects being the origin of certain other ancient art) I find much of the rest of the film nonsensical. In particular, the notion of the planets zipping willy-nilly around the solar system, or Saturn magically being fixed in the sky, and yet the earth somehow manages to maintain a relatively stable orbit and climate. I mean, come on. Velikovsky? Seriously? Is this the kind of thing that is taken seriously by EU folks in general? Or is it like the crazy uncle that everyone just smiles and nods at because they don't want to cause a scene? Am I missing something here?

As someone who is sympathetic to the EU theory (and currently a physics major), films like this really make me rethink my position. If there is anything that will prevent mainstream acceptance of EU, it is association with people like Velikovsky. My hope is that this film is not representative of EU people in general. Please tell me I am right. This must have been discussed somewhere before, yes? Is there another forum post somewhere about this sort of thing?
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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby starbiter » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:54 pm

Hello Mass: You mock Velikovsky. Einstein was into Velikovsky. Apparently your much brighter. Congratulations.

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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby davesmith_au » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:09 pm

MassInertia you have simply watched part 1 of what is intended as at least a three part presentation. There was nothing in part 1 which mentioned "planets zipping willy-nilly around the solar system", and until you understand what is really being proposed and how (parts 2 & 3 - not yet produced), I would suggest you suspend your judgment.

There are a good number of scientists, physicists and scholars who have viewed this and are eagerly awaiting parts 2 and three, and who have not written it off but give serious consideration to the possibilities.

Check out some of the reviews.

Cheers, Dave.
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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby MassInertia » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:46 pm

Here is a quote from the video:

"The ancient sky bore no resemblance to the sky we see today. Above human witnesses, planetary formations hovered close to the earth." While I would agree that the constellations would be different, since our solar system is moving through the galaxy and the other stars are in motion as well, the second sentence I have a problem with.

The narrator speaks of a "polar configuration" of the planets Saturn, Venus, and Mars, and through images and narration makes it clear that this formation was fixed (FIXED!) above the pole and near to the earth. If this isn't nonsense, I don't know what is. If someone can give me logical, rational reasons as to how this "polar configuration" is possible, do tell.

Here is a rational theory: In the hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of years that humans have been intelligent creatures that have looked into the night sky and observed and wondered, the solar system has traveled several hundred light years (at an orbital speed about the galaxy of about 220 km/s, that's about 1360 years to travel one light year, or about 136,000 years per 100 light years distance). Over that time and distance, there have likely been interesting plasma phenomena in proximity to the earth. Ancient humans would have thought that these phenomena were pretty neat and sought to explain them, hence we get similar myths, symbols, and drawings from around the world.

Some of the stuff in this video, on the other hand... well, I've seen worse on the internet, but not by much. Continued association with Velikovsky will forever consign EU to the scientific ghetto.

Please, someone, anyone who is an advocate of EU that doesn't buy this Velikovsky stuff, please make yourself heard here so that I can have some hope for this intriguing theory.
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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:20 am

Hi MassInertia and welcome aboard,
You wrote:
someone, anyone who is an advocate of EU that doesn't buy this Velikovsky stuff, please make yourself heard here
, well I'm probably the most vociferous critic of the Saturn theories (from the mythological perspective).
Might I suggest that you find out more about the various theories, there are at least two, and then open a thread to discuss any problems you see with the science. I don't have the science knowledge myself but I would be very interested in such a thread.

While I have little time for Velikovsky myself, I don't think that dismissing something just because goes against one's preconceptions is the way forward in any area.
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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:25 am

davesmith_au wrote:MassInertia you have simply watched part 1 of what is intended as at least a three part presentation. There was nothing in part 1 which mentioned "planets zipping willy-nilly around the solar system", and until you understand what is really being proposed and how (parts 2 & 3 - not yet produced), I would suggest you suspend your judgment.

There are a good number of scientists, physicists and scholars who have viewed this and are eagerly awaiting parts 2 and three, and who have not written it off but give serious consideration to the possibilities.

Check out some of the reviews.

Cheers, Dave.

Hi Dave,
Do you know when we can expect to see some of part2? (I'm asssuming some clips will be posted as with part1)
If I have the least bit of knowledge
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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby solrey » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:25 am

Welcome massinertia.
Saturn theory is definitely the most controversial, even within the EU crowd, of the many aspects of EU theory. Saturn theory grew as an extension of EU theory to explain phenomena in the past that were witnessed by cultures throughout the world and described in myth. If Saturn theory turns out to be incorrect, it would not diminish the validity of EU theory one bit. There will always be some level of uncertainty when studying ancient history. While it appears to be possible that ancient peoples saw plasma phenomena in the skies that we haven't experienced in modern times, the question is what was the cause, and that's where Saturn theory comes in.

The polar alignment would be the result of an eccentric orbit, probably below the equatorial plane, of Earth around Saturn, which according to the interpretation of some myths, was the first or best sun. One aspect of EU theory is the origin of gas giants as a possible capture of dwarf stars by larger bright stars like our Sun. The closest star that we've been able to detect so far is a red dwarf only 4.2 light years away. There is an interesting similarity on Earth's north pole to the "tiger stripes" on Enceladus' south pole where the energetic "plumes" occur. Possible evidence of plasma "plumes" forming the Axis Mundi.
Image

I fully support EU theory generally, yet I'm still undecided on Saturn theory specifically although I find the concept to be quite intriguing.

BTW, considering the farthest star visible to the naked eye is under 12,000 light years away and the solar system is pretty much locked in motion with our "local group" and the rest of the galaxy, I doubt that the constellations when viewed from the solar system would have been much different now than they were a million years ago, much less within the timeframe of recorded history. Perhaps it was the Earth, and not the surrounding stars, that was in a different configuration in the past.

peace,
Tim
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Re: "Alien Sky" - Questioning the Myths in our Religions

Unread postby starbiter » Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:05 pm

Hello again Mass Inertia: Just out of curiosity, which of Velikovsky's books have you read.

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