Does the Moon Rotate?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:42 pm

chrimony wrote: I put a little mark on the edge of the smaller bowl, it was floating freely in the larger bowl and able to spin easily. Starting with everything still, I then held it out with my arm and rotated myself. The mark kept the same direction with respect to the non-rotating room. From my point of view, it looked like the marked bowl was rotating.


Chrimony,
Your experiment is exactly what I got in diagram 2 below. The small bowl (moon) always pointed in the same direction. The observer in the center would see all sides of the bowl.

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b611/jtban/Moon%20Does%20not%20Rotate/Slide2_zpsa7632961.jpg
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:57 pm

Chrimony, I was wrong in the above post. My palm experiment is identical to my diagram #1 result. Your experiment is identical to my diagram #2 result. Both demonstrate that the moon does not rotate.

Diagram #1
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b61 ... 359f18.jpg
Diagram #2
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b61 ... 632961.jpg
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:02 pm

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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:18 am

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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Sparky » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:15 am

"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:26 am

Sparky wrote::shock: http://youtu.be/V1jbp7_8Ako :shock:


Besides the obnoxious music the video appears useless and unclear as to what is going on. A stupid video.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Sparky » Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:06 pm

Forget that I'm the only one that keeps my sound off....sorry... :oops:

At 6;20 is a recap, showing that moon is flipping.... :shock:

or maybe not.... ;) :D
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:14 pm

Sparky wrote:Forget that I'm the only one that keeps my sound off....sorry... :oops:

At 6;20 is a recap, showing that moon is flipping.... :shock:

or maybe not.... ;) :D


Nah the video is pretty dumb to me, I don't see any Moon flipping. It's just there and it goes around the Earth with the same face.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby dukemh » Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:03 pm

Hi,
For what it's worth jtb as an outside opinion I recently arrived at the same 'conclusion'. In principle the moon seems not to rotate on its own axis (as in spin axis). Take a typical animation/simulation that shows the moon to be synchronous and put a line from the moon to earth. If the line were our rod and stuck to the moon it would be exactly the same. The moon simply does not spin. Merry go round is excellent illustration "horse does not rotate on the pole". The only motion seems to be the orbit. Reduce the scale and close to touching (a couple of marbles). The 'moon marble' to show the same face can only be rotating in the context of orbit.
Just another fundamental that is assumed correct because someone popular or in an authoritative position said so.
Not found any proving fact or principle to understand otherwise to date.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:46 am

dukemh wrote:Hi,
For what it's worth jtb as an outside opinion I recently arrived at the same 'conclusion'. In principle the moon seems not to rotate on its own axis (as in spin axis). Take a typical animation/simulation that shows the moon to be synchronous and put a line from the moon to earth. If the line were our rod and stuck to the moon it would be exactly the same. The moon simply does not spin. Merry go round is excellent illustration "horse does not rotate on the pole". The only motion seems to be the orbit. Reduce the scale and close to touching (a couple of marbles). The 'moon marble' to show the same face can only be rotating in the context of orbit.
Just another fundamental that is assumed correct because someone popular or in an authoritative position said so.
Not found any proving fact or principle to understand otherwise to date.


I'm just going to quote this for posterity. You either have not read the thread or have done so and completely failed to take into account the counter-arguments given. There is no rod in space connecting the Earth to the Moon. It's gravity and Newtonian mechanics. The Earth orbits around the Sun but it doesn't always show the same face to the Sun. Man-made satellites can spin at any rotation we want. And finally, the Moon does not always show the same face to the Earth, as you can see via libration in longitude . All this has been gone over many times in this thread.

Come up with a model that calculates the libration that we see and matches other orbital mechanics of the solar system, and you can be taken seriously. Until then, you're just another poster arguing by intuition and ignorance while denouncing established science.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:44 am

dukemh wrote:The 'moon marble' to show the same face can only be rotating in the context of orbit.

Ironically that is exactly the answer that confirms the Moon's rotation about its axis.

At this point in the Moon's history its axial rotation and orbit about the Earth have merged and locked into one "thing."
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby dukemh » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:02 am

Thank you for reading and making comment; very much appreciated.

The understanding of orbit does not constitute a spin axis. This is part of the 'confusion'.
A body moving around another is the orbit.
Spin or its own axial rotation is the movement of the individual body upon itself. You do not need orbit for spin and vice versa.
----
Given the above; take standard model of moon orbiting earth and then add 1 spin of the moon per orbit. It has not spun twice only the once of which you added.
Further; if the standard was valid then any body of any kind making a complete orbit around another has achieved a single rotation on its own rotational axis.
The model used to illustrate a non rotating (spin) body around another showing all sides, actually demonstrates a body moving in one direction and then reversing on the continued 'orbital' path. Applying a single spin on this body would not result in what we see/witness with the moon.
---
Any moon spin would have to be clockwise or counter clockwise facing the earth (to be investigated). It would be seen from earth. If this were the case then the moon face would be seen to turn (over whatever period).
----
"There is no rod in space" - obviously; it just proves the moon does not need spin (or rather can't spin as in the standard model) to maintain same face to earth.
----
Libration is a further aspect to look at. Whatever effect there is must fit to any model/facts but may not be fully understood or reasoned. This is a jump too far ahead without satisfying the simple principles of the initial 'argument'.
A small 'anomaly' should not be the weight of argument to support what we observe but should still fit to the common sense and facts. I will look into asap.
----


I'm just going to quote this for posterity. At this point in the Moon's history its axial rotation and orbit about the Earth have merged and locked into one "thing."At this point in the Moon's history its axial rotation and orbit about the Earth have merged and locked into one "thing.". There is no rod in space connecting the Earth to the Moon. It's gravity and Newtonian mechanics. The Earth orbits around the Sun but it doesn't always show the same face to the Sun. Man-made satellites can spin at any rotation we want. And finally, the Moon does not always show the same face to the Earth, as you can see via libration in longitude . All this has been gone over many times in this thread.

Come up with a model that calculates the libration that we see and matches other orbital mechanics of the solar system, and you can be taken seriously. Until then, you're just another poster arguing by intuition and ignorance while denouncing established science.[/quote]
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby dukemh » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:23 am

The model used to illustrate a non rotating (spin) body around another showing all sides, actually demonstrates a body moving in one direction and then reversing on the continued 'orbital' path. Applying a single spin on this body would not result in what we see/witness with the moon.

" Applying a single spin on this body would not result in what we see/witness with the moon."
This is not right.
It would be as we see. It would correct this non rotating model.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:32 pm

dukemh wrote:"There is no rod in space" - obviously; it just proves the moon does not need spin (or rather can't spin as in the standard model) to maintain same face to earth.


The rod analogy is broken because no matter what motion you put upon the rod, the rigidly attached "moon" will always keep the same position with respect to the rod. This doesn't match what we see with objects in space or something as simple as the bowls and water experiment described in this thread (which you should read instead of repeating the same arguments).

Libration is a further aspect to look at. Whatever effect there is must fit to any model/facts but may not be fully understood or reasoned. This is a jump too far ahead without satisfying the simple principles of the initial 'argument'.
A small 'anomaly' should not be the weight of argument to support what we observe but should still fit to the common sense and facts. I will look into asap.


It is not a small anomaly. It is quite significant and any amateur could verify it for themselves by taking pictures of the moon over time. It's the definitive proof which perspective is right. It is the difference between armchair philosophizing and science.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby dukemh » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:19 am

Example:
2 bodies/items representing earth and moon.
rotate moon item and reduce orbit distance (closer to earth) until right next to earth. Remove the earth and keep rotating moon in central point (assume central point of orbit is centre of earth). The moon will now be rotating and spinning on its own axis. Basically replaced earth position with the moon.

Example:
Superman enters from space and was not rotating on his own axis, runs out of steam and gets caught in an orbit around earth. Will he feel like he is going head on round in circles? Is it he is not going to spin to any degree unless he approaches very close to or IN the central part of the earth?

There would seem to be a relationship between orbital rotation and spin rotation.
Could the confusion be the very term "axis rotation"?
We have seen orbital rotation can potentially move to a spin axis rotation and vice versa.

Next step is read up on Libration. I want to see why this is said to 'prove' the moon spins on its own axis.
From the online dictionary....

Any one of those small periodical changes in the position of the moon's surface relatively to the earth, in consequence of which narrow portions at opposite limbs become visible or invisible alternately. It receives different names according to the manner in which it takes place; as:

(a) Libration in longitude, that which, depending on the place of the moon in its elliptic orbit, causes small portions near the eastern and western borders alternately to appear and disappear each month.

(b) Libration in latitude, that which depends on the varying position of the moon's axis in respect to the spectator, causing the alternate appearance and disappearance of either pole.

(c) Diurnal or parallactic libration, that which brings into view on the upper limb, at rising and setting, some parts not in the average visible hemisphere.
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