Does the Moon Rotate?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:54 am

jtb wrote:Viscount aero, If you look closely at my last post you will notice that I accidentally proved your point. I haven't changed my view, but it shows how confusing an issue this is.
jtb


It's confusing yes but the Moon does rotate whether you believe it does or not 8-)
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:27 am

Tidal locking is the illusion of one rotation for every revolution as a result of the object and its axis changing direction simultaneously.

A stationary object continually facing the same direction is not rotating.

A stationary object continually facing a different direction is rotating.

An object moving in a circle always facing the same direction, the direction of motion, is not rotating: it is simply changing direction.

The moon always faces the direction of motion: it is not rotating.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:40 am

jtb wrote:Tidal locking is the illusion of one rotation for every revolution as a result of the object and its axis changing direction simultaneously.

A stationary object continually facing the same direction is not rotating.

A stationary object continually facing a different direction is rotating.

An object moving in a circle always facing the same direction, the direction of motion, is not rotating: it is simply changing direction.

The moon always faces the direction of motion: it is not rotating.
jtb


I understand your premise as presented above but it is not true, ol boy 8-)
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Aardwolf » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:45 am

jtb wrote:The moon always faces the direction of motion: it is not rotating.
It's not always facing it's direction of motion around the sun.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:26 am

jtb wrote:The moon always faces the direction of motion: it is not rotating.


On the positive side, a while ago you finally managed to perform the bowls and water experiment. On the negative side, you didn't try to draw any conclusions from it or explain the discrepancy between that and your rotating hand experiment. You have ignored that bodies freely rotate in space, so that to maintain the same face to the Earth while orbiting it, the moon must rotate. You have also ignored liberation, which clearly shows that the moon is not always facing "in the same direction" from a stationary Earth point of view.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Michael V » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:57 pm

moon round earth 1.jpg

This diagram shows that if the Moon were swung round the Earth, as if tied by a piece of string between their centres, then the Moon's famous big black spot would always face Earth.
The Moon would be continuously changing direction, but not rotating.


moon round earth 2.jpg

This diagram shows that if the Moon rotates about its polar axis (the small black dot) at the rate of one rotation per orbit, then the big black dot would always face Earth.
The Moon would be continuously changing direction and rotating.


So which scenario most accurately describes the relationship between the Moon and the Earth ?.....and why ?.


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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:21 pm

So which scenario most accurately describes the relationship between the Moon and the Earth ?.....and why ?.


if tied by a piece of string between their centres,
:roll:

The moon revolves. ;) There is no string.... 8-)



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"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:42 pm

Sparky wrote:
So which scenario most accurately describes the relationship between the Moon and the Earth ?.....and why ?.


if tied by a piece of string between their centres,
:roll:

The moon revolves. ;) There is no string.... 8-)


Exactly.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:57 pm

Michael V wrote:So which scenario most accurately describes the relationship between the Moon and the Earth ?.....and why ?


The answer has already been given, over and over. Bodies in space rotate freely, unlike a ball on a string. Try and get your ball to show a different face while twirling it around. Yet we have no problems spinning objects in space at arbitrary rates as they orbit. And yet again, libration shows the moon is rotating and not fixed to show the same face to Earth. If you can't answer what causes the libration effect (if not rotation), yet still argue the moon isn't rotating about its axis freely like any other object in space, you are arguing out of willful ignorance.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Michael V » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:46 pm

chrimony et al,

First of all, you should note that I made no argument one way or the other. I was merely attempting to tease out reasoned arguments.

chrimony wrote:Try and get your ball to show a different face while twirling it around.

If anything, that was my point. Both scenarios produce the same result, unless some additional logic is brought to bear.

chrimony wrote:Bodies in space rotate freely

Can you please give a detailed definition of "rotate".

And why do "bodies in space" rotate?.

And why do they rotate "freely"?.

chrimony wrote:...rotating about its axis freely...

Can you explain the concept and mechanism of "rotating about its axis freely"?

chrimony wrote:...like any other object in space,

Can you please explain why this should be so?.

Your answer regarding the question of the thread title may well be correct, I am not arguing for or against it. However, if you are able, I would be interested in your answers to my other questions.


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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:37 pm

Michael V posted the best illustrations yet for the Moon's rotation about its axis, the comparisons he gave. He wasn't posting "out of willful ignorance." And chrimony should hit the bong or take a xanax before posting, ie, take a chill pill. Everyone except for him is ignorant and clueless about life.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:45 pm

viscount aero wrote:Michael V posted the best illustrations yet for the Moon's rotation about its axis, the comparisons he gave. He wasn't posting "out of willful ignorance."


The diagrams added nothing new to the conversation. I saw no reply about libration or any attempt at acknowledging the arguments already given. How many times has it been mentioned, only to not be addressed? D_Archer acknowledged it as convincing evidence and moved on, to his credit. The other doubters just ignore it.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:09 pm

Michael V wrote:First of all, you should note that I made no argument one way or the other. I was merely attempting to tease out reasoned arguments.


Reasoned arguments that have already been given. And you already gave a position early in this thread: "The Moon does not rotate around its own axis and it does not revolve around its own axis. The Moon does rotate around the Earth with one side permanently facing the Earth and it does revolve around the Earth with one side permanently facing the Earth."

Michael V wrote:
chrimony wrote:Try and get your ball to show a different face while twirling it around.

If anything, that was my point. Both scenarios produce the same result, unless some additional logic is brought to bear.


They don't. Libration proves that. Satellites that don't always face the same direction orbiting in space prove that. You made an analogy to a ball tied to a string. The differences have been pointed out.

Michael V wrote:
chrimony wrote:Bodies in space rotate freely

Can you please give a detailed definition of "rotate".

And why do "bodies in space" rotate?.

And why do they rotate "freely"?.

chrimony wrote:...rotating about its axis freely...

Can you explain the concept and mechanism of "rotating about its axis freely"?

chrimony wrote:...like any other object in space,

Can you please explain why this should be so?.

Your answer regarding the question of the thread title may well be correct, I am not arguing for or against it. However, if you are able, I would be interested in your answers to my other questions.


How about instead you first address libration, which shows that the Moon does not always show the same face to the Earth.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:37 am

chrimony wrote:On the positive side, a while ago you finally managed to perform the bowls and water experiment. On the negative side, you didn't try to draw any conclusions from it or explain the discrepancy between that and your rotating hand experiment. You have ignored that bodies freely rotate in space, so that to maintain the same face to the Earth while orbiting it, the moon must rotate. You have also ignored liberation, which clearly shows that the moon is not always facing "in the same direction" from a stationary Earth point of view.


Chrimony, my conclusion was that your small bowl, which you say is the moon, did not rotate; therefore, there was no discrepancy between your experiment and mine. Neither your moon nor mine rotated.

If you hold a wheel by its axle and move in a circle, simulating bodies freely rotating in space, you get the illusion of rotation, but the wheel remains stationary on the axle.

Liberation is oscillation, not rotation, due to orbits not being perfect circles.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:57 am

Michael, in both diagrams the pole and the object are moving in the same direction as if attached. If rotating, a mark on the pole would match a mark on the object once per revolution. The pole is moving in a circle at the same rate as the object: the object is not rotating on the pole.
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