Does the Moon Rotate?

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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby webolife » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:20 pm

john666 wrote:Ok webolife, tell me, what is the earths axis of rotation.
A simple question surely you can answers that.

Yes, but can you understand a simple answer?
The equator is the O-latitude "parallel" although the reason they are called parallels is because on a Mercator style projection the latitude markers are parallel to the equator, so you're talking in circles... literally. They are concentric circles with respect to the rotational axis of the earth, which is the geometric line connecting the N and S poles.
This would still be the rotational axis of the earth if the planet were shaped like a cylinder, an hourglass, a snowman, or...??? Every point on or in the earth is revolving [or rotating along with the entire planet] around this central polar axis, regardless of whatever point you are trying to make about the equator.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:11 am

Grey Cloud wrote:I notice you didn't answer the last and most important part of my post. You keep saying eveyone else is wrong and you keep flip-flopping between the use of 'axle' and 'axis' and you keep posting analogies. What you don't do is explain what you think is happening and provide evidence to support your thinking.
From my study of synchronous rotation and axles for the last 4 years, I have determined that if the moon is attached to Earth by gravity, electromagnetism, or any other force, the moon is not rotating. If however, an external force, whether it be a squeeze or a gravitational or electrical push, the moon indeed is rotating. How is the moon attached to Earth? I don't know. All I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways as modern astronomy postulates. Saying that the moon is attached to Earth by gravity and that it is rotating once per orbit does not match reality.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:35 am

Aardwolf wrote:
jtb wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:Comet ISON apparently reached over 800,000 mph in 2013. S2 in Sagittarius A is estimated to be travelling at 11,000,000 mph. 372,000 mph is nothing.
The frame of reference for these speeds is based on the false assumption that redshift determines distance rather than age and leads to absurdities such as these.
Wrong. Neither the speed of ISON (which is/was in our solar system by the way) nor the speed of S2 are determined by redshift. Their speed was determined as relative to other nearby objects.
You're correct. I really don't know how they determined these velocities. But, I do know that they are guessing as to the distance to the frame of reference that they use. Each object and every point in an object's acceleration (any deviation from straight line motion is a form of acceleration) is a new frame of reference.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:51 am

webolife wrote:Jtb,
What is your response to my carousel challenge? From one vantage point Mom sees Junior rotating synchronously with the carousel, from the other she sees no rotation. But Junior's conditions do not change: He is still making a complete turn as the carousel rotates once. He is being forced to do so by the frictional attachment of his bum to the horse or turntable, just as the moon is being "forced" to rotate synchronously by means of gravitationally induced tidal locking. Several moons of other planets [especially the gas giants] demonstrate the same synchronicity. Whether gravitation is an attracting pull/connection or an inward push/squeeze from the "outside" [my view] makes no difference whatsoever to the physical dynamics of the respective motions and orbits. That said, shifting ones gravitational paradigm toward a squeezing or cinching mechanism away from the typically discussed "grabbing" attraction of Newton, now there's a physics changer for you!
If the moon or any object is "locked", whether tidally or otherwise, how can it rotate?
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:59 am

Grey Cloud wrote:jtb,
Your carousel analogy is false. Mom is not moving therefore she sees all sides of son. Also, in your analogy she can see across the carousel.
If my analogy is false, so are modern astrophysicists because they pick a sidereal stationary frame of reference and claim to see across the solar system.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby john666 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:56 pm

webolife wrote:
john666 wrote:Ok webolife, tell me, what is the earths axis of rotation.
A simple question surely you can answers that.

Yes, but can you understand a simple answer?
The equator is the O-latitude "parallel" although the reason they are called parallels is because on a Mercator style projection the latitude markers are parallel to the equator, so you're talking in circles... literally. They are concentric circles with respect to the rotational axis of the earth, which is the geometric line connecting the N and S poles.
This would still be the rotational axis of the earth if the planet were shaped like a cylinder, an hourglass, a snowman, or...??? Every point on or in the earth is revolving [or rotating along with the entire planet] around this central polar axis, regardless of whatever point you are trying to make about the equator.


What I am saying is that the Earths N-S axis of rotation has to be parallel with the Moons N-S axis of rotation for synchronous rotation to be true, because you need to equalize two different rotations.
Which means that if we were to extend the Earths parallels all the way up to the Moon, Moon would be following one of the Earths parallels, as it rotates around the Earth.

And as for the equator, if the Moon is to be visible EQUALLY from both the Northern and the Southern hemisphere, the parallel which the Moon would follow, would be the equator.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:59 pm

john666 wrote:
webolife wrote:
john666 wrote:Ok webolife, tell me, what is the earths axis of rotation.
A simple question surely you can answers that.

Yes, but can you understand a simple answer?
The equator is the O-latitude "parallel" although the reason they are called parallels is because on a Mercator style projection the latitude markers are parallel to the equator, so you're talking in circles... literally. They are concentric circles with respect to the rotational axis of the earth, which is the geometric line connecting the N and S poles.
This would still be the rotational axis of the earth if the planet were shaped like a cylinder, an hourglass, a snowman, or...??? Every point on or in the earth is revolving [or rotating along with the entire planet] around this central polar axis, regardless of whatever point you are trying to make about the equator.


What I am saying is that the Earths N-S axis of rotation has to be parallel with the Moons N-S axis of rotation for synchronous rotation to be true, because you need to equalize two different rotations.
Which means that if we were to extend the Earths parallels all the way up to the Moon, Moon would be following one of the Earths parallels, as it rotates around the Earth.

And as for the equator, if the Moon is to be visible EQUALLY from both the Northern and the Southern hemisphere, the parallel which the Moon would follow, would be the equator.

Neither Earth nor Moon has a N-S axis of rotation -they have an N-S axis and an axis of rotation ~90 deg. to that.

The Moon is not rotating, it is travelling roughly the same circuit as Earth but in the ouside lane as it were. The Moon is not not visible to every spot on Earth at all times, e.g. a 'new moon'. When it is visible it can be observed, with the naked eye, moving across the sky.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:01 pm

jtb wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:I notice you didn't answer the last and most important part of my post. You keep saying eveyone else is wrong and you keep flip-flopping between the use of 'axle' and 'axis' and you keep posting analogies. What you don't do is explain what you think is happening and provide evidence to support your thinking.
From my study of synchronous rotation and axles for the last 4 years, I have determined that if the moon is attached to Earth by gravity, electromagnetism, or any other force, the moon is not rotating. If however, an external force, whether it be a squeeze or a gravitational or electrical push, the moon indeed is rotating. How is the moon attached to Earth? I don't know. All I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways as modern astronomy postulates. Saying that the moon is attached to Earth by gravity and that it is rotating once per orbit does not match reality.

Saying you have studied something for x number of years is not evidence.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Aardwolf » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:18 pm

jtb wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:
jtb wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:Comet ISON apparently reached over 800,000 mph in 2013. S2 in Sagittarius A is estimated to be travelling at 11,000,000 mph. 372,000 mph is nothing.
The frame of reference for these speeds is based on the false assumption that redshift determines distance rather than age and leads to absurdities such as these.
Wrong. Neither the speed of ISON (which is/was in our solar system by the way) nor the speed of S2 are determined by redshift. Their speed was determined as relative to other nearby objects.
You're correct. I really don't know how they determined these velocities. But, I do know that they are guessing as to the distance to the frame of reference that they use. Each object and every point in an object's acceleration (any deviation from straight line motion is a form of acceleration) is a new frame of reference.
No one is guessing the distance to our sun. It's very established science.

This comet was travelling at 1.3 million mph and anyone who states that fact is not insane.
http://www.space.com/33651-comet-death-dive-into-sun-video.html

372,000 mph is slow in cosmological terms. Fact.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:05 am

Grey Cloud wrote:Saying you have studied something for x number of years is not evidence.
True, but still, saying that the moon is attached to Earth by gravity and that it is rotating once per orbit does not match reality.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:29 am

Aardwolf wrote:No one is guessing the distance to our sun. It's very established science.
This comet was travelling at 1.3 million mph and anyone who states that fact is not insane.
http://www.space.com/33651-comet-death-dive-into-sun-video.html
372,000 mph is slow in cosmological terms. Fact.
Reality check. How did this comet hit the sun without melting while traveling through millions of degree heat as established by science as fact? It's like our Thermosphere where science says it's a fact that at ~4,000 F we would freeze up there. Don't you question anything? I do however, admire your unshakeable faith in modern science.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby john666 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:53 am

john666 wrote:
What I am saying is that the Earths N-S axis of rotation has to be parallel with the Moons N-S axis of rotation for synchronous rotation to be true, because you need to equalize two different rotations.
Which means that if we were to extend the Earths parallels all the way up to the Moon, Moon would be following one of the Earths parallels, as it rotates around the Earth.

And as for the equator, if the Moon is to be visible EQUALLY from both the Northern and the Southern hemisphere, the parallel which the Moon would follow, would be the equator.

Grey Cloud wrote:Neither Earth nor Moon has a N-S axis of rotation -they have an N-S axis and an axis of rotation ~90 deg. to that.

The Moon is not rotating, it is travelling roughly the same circuit as Earth but in the ouside lane as it were. The Moon is not not visible to every spot on Earth at all times, e.g. a 'new moon'. When it is visible it can be observed, with the naked eye, moving across the sky.


Website http://www.polaris.iastate.edu/NorthStar/Unit3/unit3_sub1.htm disagrees with you:

"The earth rotates about an imaginary line that passes through the North and South Poles of the planet. This line is called the axis of rotation."

Also all those astronomers who say that the Moon is in synchronous rotation with Earth, say that the Moon DOES ROTATE.

And in fact, in the following animation from wiki https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Tidal_locking_of_the_Moon_with_the_Earth.gif
we clearly see the the difference the rotating Moon(left), and non-rotating Moon(right).

It is clear that for the synchronous ROTATION to be true, the Moon would have to rotate.

But the astronomers depiction of the Moons movement around the Earth is filled with contradictions.
Because as I have shown, for the synchronous rotation to be true, the Moon would have to orbit in the same plane as one of the Earths parallels AND if the Moon is to be seen equal amount of time in both the Northern and the Southern hemisphere, this plane would contain the Equatorial Circle of Latitude.
Meaning the Moon would have to orbit Earth around its equator.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby webolife » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:22 am

john666 wrote: Grey Cloud wrote:
Neither Earth nor Moon has a N-S axis of rotation -they have an N-S axis and an axis of rotation ~90 deg. to that.

The Moon is not rotating, it is traveling roughly the same circuit as Earth but in the outside lane as it were. The Moon is not not visible to every spot on Earth at all times, e.g. a 'new moon'. When it is visible it can be observed, with the naked eye, moving across the sky.

Website http://www.polaris.iastate.edu/NorthSta ... 3_sub1.htm disagrees with you:

"The earth rotates about an imaginary line that passes through the North and South Poles of the planet. This line is called the axis of rotation."

Also all those astronomers who say that the Moon is in synchronous rotation with Earth, say that the Moon DOES ROTATE.

And in fact, in the following animation from wiki https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Earth.gif
we clearly see the the difference the rotating Moon(left), and non-rotating Moon(right).

It is clear that for the synchronous ROTATION to be true, the Moon would have to rotate.

But the astronomers depiction of the Moons movement around the Earth is filled with contradictions.
Because as I have shown, for the synchronous rotation to be true, the Moon would have to orbit in the same plane as one of the Earths parallels AND if the Moon is to be seen equal amount of time in both the Northern and the Southern hemisphere, this plane would contain the Equatorial Circle of Latitude.
Meaning the Moon would have to orbit Earth around its equator.


Well John666, you started out here on the right track with the clarification of "axis of rotation" that Grey Cloud somewhat misrepresented. Grey Cloud, I'm not sure what you were thinking there...
But then you grossly misstated everything else:
1.You have a basic misconception about the meaning of "attachment" as applied to tidal locking. While imagining as you do some sort of gravitational "string" attaching the two orbs, that analogy [as is the case with any analogy] does not completely apply to the real physical situation, although it may apply to the vector math used to describe what is an action across a distance. Tidal locking is a physical phenomenon of gravitation. Synchronous rotation is a geometric construct used to describe it, ie. it's how we see the physical phenomenon occurring. Mathematical models are an accepted way to formulate scientific theories. Just because a model may be incomplete does not qualify it for derision, or make for some kind of conspiracy, just furthers the need for scientific dialogue.
2. If you have no problem accepting gravitation as a force [pressure] from the "outside" [what I term "centropic"], and can accept on that basis that the moon is rotating, let's start from there. Let's also assume that you accept that the earth is rotating, and that at a different rate than the moon's rotation. The earth's rotation rate, as well as its axis, have nothing to do with the meaning of synchronous rotation. Synchronous rotation is how the moon's rotation and it revolution are synchronized with the earth's motion through space is such a way that we see the same face of the moon from the earth. The two orbs are mutually revolving about the Earth-Moon barycenter. That's a fact, and that's all there is to it.
3. To be seen equally [whatever you mean by that] from both the northern and southern hemisphere, the moon simply has to spend an equal time in both celestial "hemispheres" over the course of time. Which it does, equal time both north and south of the equator every month. All the while, its same face is always toward the earth, which is due to its synchronous rotation with its period of revolution. Synchronous rotation does not require the moon's orbit to be coplanar with any Earth parallel, including the equator.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:26 am

I stand corrected on several axes. :oops:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby kevin » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:39 am

There simply is no such force as gravity.
There is field interactions.
The moon giving the best clues .
It is not the moon or the earth or the sun creating so called movements or orbits, it is the fields of each.
http://www.universetoday.com/48792/moon-orbit/
The above link is typical of the ASSUMPTION based thinkings.

Try instead to think of all in creation so called movement been enabled via a field of consciousness, those fields having polarity and equator .

The moon will be held within the counter competing fields of the earth and the sun, it will have been created there.

creation is a consequence of counter rotating flows of consciousness creating matter that becomes mass in memory.
It is not the created mass that has anything to do with creating a mythical gravity, it is though symbiotic in a relationship with that which made iot, and enables it to remember to be.

We are so well indoctrinated with ASSUMPTION based gravity notions, that it is very difficult to break free from gravity.
This is central to the electrical nature of universe, as all forms of electricity are products of consciousness field interactions.
I love this thread.
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