Does the Moon Rotate?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:51 am

jtb wrote:John, the link you provided has 2 animations. The one on the left is synchronous rotation, which is an illusion if the moon is attached to Earth. The animation on the right is one axial rotation per orbit if attached to Earth by gravity.

Grey, you need to study how wheels and axles work then apply what you learn to the motion of heavenly bodies to understand how they should operate in reality.
Grey Cloud wrote:Again, I don't really understand what you are saying here. For a kick-off you don't seem to understand what metaphysics is about but the killer for me is the part about misunderstanding. Are you saying that who knows how many learned people from every inhabited continent over several thousand years have got it wrong but you have got it right?
My understanding of metaphysics comes from "A First Book in Metaphysics" by Walter T. Marvin published in 1920. Physics deals with objects and how they work. Metaphysics deals with concepts and reasoning. The concept of synchronous rotation as presented by modern astronomy does not match reality, and therefore, misunderstood.

I notice you didn't answer the last and most important part of my post. You keep saying eveyone else is wrong and you keep flip-flopping between the use of 'axle' and 'axis' and you keep posting analogies. What you don't do is explain what you think is happening and provide evidence to support your thinking.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby john666 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:03 am

Grey Cloud wrote:John666,

Okay, so what are you saying?

The moon doesn't rotate?
It's a conspiracy?
It's gross professional incompetance?


Do you understand the point that I am making?

I say that if the Earth rotates west to east, Moon would have to rotate east to west, around the Earths axis of rotation which is THE EQUATOR for the synchronous rotation to be true.

Do you agree or disagree with that?
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby seasmith » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:28 am

John666,
At which Point on the EQUATOR, Is the Earth rotating/spinning around ??
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Aardwolf » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:10 am

jtb wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:Comet ISON apparently reached over 800,000 mph in 2013. S2 in Sagittarius A is estimated to be travelling at 11,000,000 mph. 372,000 mph is nothing.
The frame of reference for these speeds is based on the false assumption that redshift determines distance rather than age and leads to absurdities such as these.
Wrong. Neither the speed of ISON (which is/was in our solar system by the way) nor the speed of S2 are determined by redshift. Their speed was determined as relative to other nearby objects.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby webolife » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:13 am

Jtb,
What is your response to my carousel challenge? From one vantage point Mom sees Junior rotating synchronously with the carousel, from the other she sees no rotation. But Junior's conditions do not change: He is still making a complete turn as the carousel rotates once. He is being forced to do so by the frictional attachment of his bum to the horse or turntable, just as the moon is being "forced" to rotate synchronously by means of gravitationally induced tidal locking. Several moons of other planets [especially the gas giants] demonstrate the same synchronicity. Whether gravitation is an attracting pull/connection or an inward push/squeeze from the "outside" [my view] makes no difference whatsoever to the physical dynamics of the respective motions and orbits. That said, shifting ones gravitational paradigm toward a squeezing or cinching mechanism away from the typically discussed "grabbing" attraction of Newton, now there's a physics changer for you!
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Aardwolf » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:20 am

Here's another recent speedster.

http://www.space.com/33651-comet-death-dive-into-sun-video.html
Video of the comet's death dive into the sun was captured by the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO) between Aug. 2 and Aug. 4. It shows the comet zooming toward the sun at nearly 373 miles per second (600 kilometers per second). That's a mind-boggling 1.34 million mph!
No redshift measurements required.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby webolife » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:53 am

john666 wrote:I say that if the Earth rotates west to east, Moon would have to rotate east to west, around the Earths axis of rotation which is THE EQUATOR for the synchronous rotation to be true.

Do you agree or disagree with that?


Disagree 100%. I can't even begin to imagine what you are thinking here. The moon's rotation is west to east, just like the earth. In fact there are only a handful of bodies in the local universe with retrograde motion as seen from the earth. The earth need not rotate at the same rate as the moon! "Synchronous rotation" is a term describing the lunar motion with respect to the Earth. There is nothing illusory about this to a modern scientific observer, albeit in past centuries the paradigm of geocentrism birthed many misconceptions about the nature of astronomical motions. Also the Moon's orbital plane is not the same as the Earth's equatorial plane, which is different from the ecliptic, which differs from the galactic plane... and none of these disorientations has anything whatsoever to do with synchronous rotation! Perhaps the videos and drawings which clearly depict synchronous rotation are just too simple for you! You have made an unnecessary objection against an obvious and simple relation. There are other issues more worthy of discussion regarding the Earth/Moon system and other astronomical correlations, from simple to complex:
1. The coincidence of rough angular dimension of the moon and sun,
2. Mutual revolutions about the Earth/Moon barycenter and significance of the co-tidal forces produced thereby,
3. Significance of the tidal cycle with the continuity of life on Earth,
4. The significance of the predominance of retrograde motions in contrast to "normal" orbits,
5. The relation of Earth's synchronous revolution with it's LaGrangian partners, such as the asteroid Cruithne,
6. The former tidal locking of Earth and Venus, and the synchronous rotations of those two bodies over time; and how a [former] Moon/Earth/Venus system might be calculated/resolved as a three-body problem...
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby john666 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:54 am

john666 wrote:
Do you understand the point that I am making?

I say that if the Earth rotates west to east, Moon would have to rotate east to west, around the Earths axis of rotation which is THE EQUATOR for the synchronous rotation to be true.

Do you agree or disagree with that?


seasmith wrote:John666,
At which Point on the EQUATOR, Is the Earth rotating/spinning around ??


If the Earth rotates west to east, and if the Earth rotates around its own axis, what is its own axis, if not the parallel which is at the middle of the North pole-South pole distance?

If you disagree, you tell me, what is the Earths own axis, if not the equator.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby webolife » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:02 am

John666,
You are making no point, and your confusion over the term "axis" demonstrates that you have no sense of geometry, symmetry, or physics in general. Read up a little bit before embarrassing yourself with such statements.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby webolife » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:13 am

Wow Aardwolf,
That's the fastest sun-grazer I've ever seen!
The speed is directly measurable by comparison with the solar region, here obscured partly by the coronagraph.
I'm impressed by the tremendous impact the comet passage had on the corona [the CME on opposite side] as it approached the sun's "surface" from as far away as a few hundred thousand kilometers.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby john666 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:30 am

Ok webolife, tell me, what is the earths axis of rotation.
A simple question surely you can answers that.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:07 am

john666 wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:John666,

Okay, so what are you saying?

The moon doesn't rotate?
It's a conspiracy?
It's gross professional incompetance?


Do you understand the point that I am making?

I say that if the Earth rotates west to east, Moon would have to rotate east to west, around the Earths axis of rotation which is THE EQUATOR for the synchronous rotation to be true.

Do you agree or disagree with that?

I disagree. The Earth's axis of rotation is the direction in which it revolves. I live a long way from the equator but the Earth here still revolves, we still see the same face of the Moon night after night. If Earth was a cube it would still have an axis of rotation. Earth's axis, i.e the imaginary line around which it revolves, is roughly N-S.

I don't see why the Moon would have to rotate at all. All it has to do is travel around Earth facing in the same direction.

I have no idea of the point you are making as you consistently fail to answer questions.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:14 am

jtb,
Your carousel analogy is false. Mom is not moving therefore she sees all sides of son. Also, in your analogy she can see across the carousel.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby john666 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:29 am

Grey Cloud wrote:I disagree. The Earth's axis of rotation is the direction in which it revolves. I live a long way from the equator but the Earth here still revolves, we still see the same face of the Moon night after night. If Earth was a cube it would still have an axis of rotation. Earth's axis, i.e the imaginary line around which it revolves, is roughly N-S.

I don't see why the Moon would have to rotate at all. All it has to do is travel around Earth facing in the same direction.

I have no idea of the point you are making as you consistently fail to answer questions.


The Earths axis of rotation is a line that goes through the PARALLEL known as the equator.

The key word here is parallel.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Tidal_locking_of_the_Moon_with_the_Earth.gif

If you look as this animation, you will see that a 3D Earth that rotates is represented here by a 2D circle that does not rotate.

Which means that in order for this this animation to be valid representation of the reality THE CIRCLE WOULD HAVE TO REPRESENT THE PARALLEL
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:41 pm

john666 wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:I disagree. The Earth's axis of rotation is the direction in which it revolves. I live a long way from the equator but the Earth here still revolves, we still see the same face of the Moon night after night. If Earth was a cube it would still have an axis of rotation. Earth's axis, i.e the imaginary line around which it revolves, is roughly N-S.

I don't see why the Moon would have to rotate at all. All it has to do is travel around Earth facing in the same direction.

I have no idea of the point you are making as you consistently fail to answer questions.


The Earths axis of rotation is a line that goes through the PARALLEL known as the equator.

The key word here is parallel.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Tidal_locking_of_the_Moon_with_the_Earth.gif

If you look as this animation, you will see that a 3D Earth that rotates is represented here by a 2D circle that does not rotate.

Which means that in order for this this animation to be valid representation of the reality THE CIRCLE WOULD HAVE TO REPRESENT THE PARALLEL



Earth's rotation is the rotation of the planet Earth around its own axis. The Earth rotates from the west towards east. As viewed from North Star or polestar Polaris, the Earth turns counter-clockwise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_rotation

Parallel and equator have nothing to do with it, not even if you type the words in capitals.
www.dictionary.com/browse/parallel
Adjective Of or relating to lines or surfaces that are separated everywhere from each other by the same distance. Noun Any of the imaginary lines encircling the Earth's surface parallel to the plane of the equator, used to represent degrees of latitude.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equator
The Equator usually refers to an imaginary line on the Earth's surface equidistant from the North Pole and South Pole, dividing the Earth into the Northern Hemisphere and Southern Hemisphere.


The Earth in your gif is as 2D as the Moon.

You have not answered any questions again.

P.S. Did the Sun ever turn up in Sydney?
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16308#p113300
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
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