Does the Moon Rotate?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:04 pm

Aardwolf wrote:Comet ISON apparently reached over 800,000 mph in 2013. S2 in Sagittarius A is estimated to be travelling at 11,000,000 mph. 372,000 mph is nothing.
The frame of reference for these speeds is based on the false assumption that redshift determines distance rather than age and leads to absurdities such as these.
jtb
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:36 am

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:40 pm

Synchronous rotation is a sidereal illusion if based on the assumption that the orbiting object is attached to the center of orbit. Mom observes the sidereal illusion of synchronous rotation of Junior sitting on a merry-go-round horse. She sees all sides of Junior, the horse, and the pole once per orbit. However, Junior and the horse are not rotating about the pole through the horse's back (axis). They are one unit. The whole unit: Junior, the horse, and the pole, like web's tinker toy construction, are rotating about the center of orbit; not the pole through the horse's back.
jtb
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:36 am

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:02 pm

Is there a point to this thread, or are you saying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gapCK5_rMuY
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:47 pm

Grey, the point to this thread is that synchronous rotation is a sidereal illusion if the axis of the orbiting object is assumed to be attached to the center of orbit. If attached to some external force, it indeed is rotating on its axis.
jtb
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:36 am

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby john666 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:21 am

jtb wrote: If attached to some external force, it indeed is rotating on its axis.


Synchronous rotation is in all instances false.

Imagine models of Earth and Moon(lets say two simple globe models) being at a distance of 1 meter from each other.
Imagine an AB line of 5 meter length going thought them.
Imagine that the point A of the AB line is behind the Earth, and point B of the AB line is behind the Moon.
Imagine that before we start to rotate the Moon model, the Moon faces the Earth, with the same face we see every time when we look at the Moon.
Lets call this particular face of the Moon, Alpha face.

NOW ROTATE THE MOON

If you do this, you will see that the Alpha face would eventually not be directed at the Earth but at the point B of the AB line.

YOU THINK THAT THE ORBIT OF THE MOON AROUND THE EARTH SOMEHOW CHANGES THIS FACT?

OK, if you think that, rotate the Moon around the Earth.
You would still have the AB line, you would still have the Alpha face eventually facing point B of the AB line and not the Earth.

Orbit or no orbit, or the possible different speeds of the orbit, are completely irrelevant to the question Will the Moon always show the same face to us if the Moon is rotating around its own axis?

The common sense answers is No of course not!
And in this particular case, the common sense answer is absolutely true, as shown in my thought experiment with the AB line going through the Earth and the Moon.

Synchronous rotation is very much pseudo science, just like black holes and dark matter.

As I explained before, when thinking about Synchronous rotation, people are confusing two different things;

john666 wrote:
If the Moon would rotate around its own axis with the same speed as it does revolve around the Earth, the Moon would always be showing the same face FOR A PARTICULAR PLACE ON THE EARTH!!!

For example, people in NYC would always see face A of the Moon(whatever features the face "A" would show) people in Moscow would always see face B, people in Berlin would always see face C, and so on, and so forth.



That is how the real Synchronous rotation would look like, if it existed.
john666
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:59 am

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby webolife » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:07 am

Wait... you think people in Moscow would see a different face of the moon than those in New York???? On what basis? Do you live on a flat earth? Draw me a picture. The orbital dynamics have everything to do with synchronous rotation, and if you ignore that simple fact, you set yourself up for the misconception you attempted to illustrate! By the time the moon gets to facing "point B" it has made a half revolution about the earth, it has also rotated 180 degrees, so is still facing the earth in the alpha position. This is course presuming a sidereally fixed line AB.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2439
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby webolife » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:41 am

jtb wrote:Imagine a giant laser beam directed at the Earth from the Moon.
Imagine the Moon rotating.
Imagine the laser beam rotating together with the Moon.

Eventually because of rotation, the laser beam would be directed at the opposite direction from which it started.
Meaning it would no longer be directed at the Earth, but at the space.


Imagine the moon is rotating. Imagine the moon revolving about the earth at a rate that is consistent with its own rotation, including the adjusted time required to keep up with the earth in its orbit about the sun. That is referred to as tidal locking. Now, instead of the laser pointing "at the space" it is still pointing toward the Earth. Since the Earth rotates once for every ~12 degrees of the moon's revolution arc, all observers on the earth get to see the same face of the moon. That's synchronous rotation. Not a conspiracy, not a myth, not an illusion, simple comparative motions.

In the carousel example, Mom is watching from the sidelines as Junior rotates and revolves about the carousel hub. He rotates once for every revolution, so she gets to see all sides of him. If he were not rotating, she would see only one side throughout the ride. But without changing anything else, place Mom on the carousel near the hub. Now she sees her son, who is still rotating and revolving synchronously, with the same side always facing her [ie. she can't tell directly that he is rotating as she could before] but she gauges his revolution by the changing scenery beyond.
If what you are saying is that these relative motion issues are illusory to you, then all I can say is, get a larger perspective on the world and the universe. You are not fixed to the hub of the carousel of life. You are free to get off the ride and enjoin other points of view.

If you wish to describe a physical phenomenon, first acknowledge your underlying assumptions, state your premises, and show how your description is consistent with your premises. Then acknowledge that another's premises may lead logically to a different conclusion than yours. That makes for honest science, a dying breed.
Last edited by webolife on Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2439
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:46 am

John, with synchronous rotation a point on the axis always faces the same direction, east for example, and a point on the heavenly body rotates on the axis always facing the center. That is how a real axle acts if attached to something external that is causing the orbit. However, at the same time they say that the moon's axis is attached to Earth by gravity. You can't have it both ways. If an axle is attached to the center and a point on the mounted object always faces the center, the object is rotating about the center; not on its axle.
jtb
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:36 am

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby webolife » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:08 am

You really shouldn't be using the term "synchronous rotation" in your axle description. You have thoroughly confused and conflated the entire issue thereby. You believe that in order to be rotating about itself, an object must be detached in some way from a central axle that is not rotating, an elementary simple wheel and axle machine. Which is why the term "axis" is more suitable to describing the motions of free rotating and revolving objects, ie. objects that exist in the real universe. Regardless, you have still not answered the question of why this is a concern to you? Do you feel that the world is being misled by conspirators, or that relative motion can only be described from a single "true" viewpoint?
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2439
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:20 am

webolife wrote:Regardless, you have still not answered the question of why this is a concern to you? Do you feel that the world is being misled by conspirators, or that relative motion can only be described from a single "true" viewpoint?
My concern is that the world is being misled. Not by conspirators but by well meaning people educated in metaphysics rather than physics. Metaphysics deals with concepts; physics with reality. However, concepts must still match reality to be true.
jtb
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:36 am

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby john666 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:20 pm

jtb wrote:John, with synchronous rotation a point on the axis always faces the same direction, east for example, and a point on the heavenly body rotates on the axis always facing the center. That is how a real axle acts if attached to something external that is causing the orbit. However, at the same time they say that the moon's axis is attached to Earth by gravity. You can't have it both ways. If an axle is attached to the center and a point on the mounted object always faces the center, the object is rotating about the center; not on its axle.


Ok, I understand what you are getting at.
But still, when you are talking about synchronous rotation, you are having in mind the following visualization

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Tidal_locking_of_the_Moon_with_the_Earth.gif

Am I correct in assuming that?
If so, there is a serious problem.
Namely in this animation, an observer from Earth can see the Moon all the time, from his particular location - all he has to be able is 360 degree movement around his own axis - but in reality that is not so.
Meaning the animation is false.
john666
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:59 am

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:37 pm

jtb,
jtb wrote:Grey, the point to this thread is that synchronous rotation is a sidereal illusion if the axis of the orbiting object is assumed to be attached to the center of orbit. If attached to some external force, it indeed is rotating on its axis.
I don't understand a word of this to be honest.

jtb wrote:
webolife wrote:Regardless, you have still not answered the question of why this is a concern to you? Do you feel that the world is being misled by conspirators, or that relative motion can only be described from a single "true" viewpoint?
My concern is that the world is being misled. Not by conspirators but by well meaning people educated in metaphysics rather than physics. Metaphysics deals with concepts; physics with reality. However, concepts must still match reality to be true.
Again, I don't really understand what you are saying here. For a kick-off you don't seem to understand what metaphysics is about but the killer for me is the part about misunderstanding. Are you saying that who knows how many learned people from every inhabited continent over several thousand years have got it wrong but you have got it right? :shock:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby john666 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:01 pm

There is a fundamental problem with the synchronous rotation.
If the Earth rotates around its own axis, it rotates around its equator(anybody who has a globe can check this out for themselves)
And in this case, for the synchronous rotation to be true, the Moon would have to rotate around the Earth's equator, but modern astronomy astronomy says that is not the case.

What is my proof of that?
Their own animation of the synchronous rotation;

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Tidal_locking_of_the_Moon_with_the_Earth.gif

If you look at the animation, the 3D spherical Earth is represented by a circle.
And because the Earth rotates around its equator, the only way this circle could be a valid representation of the
3D spherical Earth in relation to the Moon, is if the Moon would rotate around the Earth's equator.
john666
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:59 am

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:10 pm

John666,

Okay, so what are you saying?

The moon doesn't rotate?
It's a conspiracy?
It's gross professional incompetance?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:03 pm

John, the link you provided has 2 animations. The one on the left is synchronous rotation, which is an illusion if the moon is attached to Earth. The animation on the right is one axial rotation per orbit if attached to Earth by gravity.

Grey, you need to study how wheels and axles work then apply what you learn to the motion of heavenly bodies to understand how they should operate in reality.
Grey Cloud wrote:Again, I don't really understand what you are saying here. For a kick-off you don't seem to understand what metaphysics is about but the killer for me is the part about misunderstanding. Are you saying that who knows how many learned people from every inhabited continent over several thousand years have got it wrong but you have got it right?
My understanding of metaphysics comes from "A First Book in Metaphysics" by Walter T. Marvin published in 1920. Physics deals with objects and how they work. Metaphysics deals with concepts and reasoning. The concept of synchronous rotation as presented by modern astronomy does not match reality, and therefore, misunderstood.
jtb
 
Posts: 561
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:36 am

PreviousNext

Return to New Insights and Mad Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests