Does the Moon Rotate?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby Goldminer » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:43 pm

Michael V wrote:Goldminer,

The GPS system uses an Earth-Moon barycentered, nonrotating reference frame to describe the satellites' ephemeris and set/adjust the satellite clocks used within the system. Do they worry about the helical path everything makes within other reference frames? No. Do they understand about the helical paths? I bet so. Do they care? I bet not.

Yet again: no logical argument, no line of reasoning and no point to make.

You hint again here that you believe the fundamental operation of the universe is for the benefit of humans, whereas, in fact, the universe operates with no care for the purposes of terrestrial occupants.
It will no doubt come as a surprise to you to discover that there are those whose aim is to understand how the universe works, rather than how the universe does not work. Quoting the ability of others to perform feats of engineering without achieving or even requiring a deep knowledge or understanding of how matter exists and operates at a fundamental level is irrelevant to any of the issues so far discussed or laid-out.

If you have a logical argument, then please make it. If you have a line of reasoning to develop, then do so. If on the other hand you have no point to make, or more likely, lack sufficient cognitive abilities to perform an objective logical analysis, then perhaps it would be better to hold off making comments about concepts that you are ill-equipped to be able to understand. I mean, "photon with charge"?, <ad hom removed>.Michael V


Oh, I forgot! You understand everything! I'll be sure and check with you before uttering anything else! THIW!
I sense a disturbance in the farce.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:51 pm

http://www.grantchronicles.com/astro29.htm
While doing a web search on locating the lunar axis (if the moon is rotating it must have an axis), I came across the above site with technical explanations of why the moon does not rotate.

I started reading Michael's paper, "On the Motion of Matter" page 3. At the micro-level he states,
"Helical precession is a constant function of all spinning particles, in other words, sub-atomic particles have two permanent modes of motion: spin and helical precession. ... Electrons and protons can be said to have more than one velocity. The velocity along their inherent precessional helix and other velocities associated with secondary helices. ... Also, once an object is accelerated to a given linear velocity, it is able to maintain that state of uniform motion even once the source of influence is removed. In other words, its secondary helix is maintained simply by its precessional reaction to travel through the field."

Taken at the macro-level, if the moon was spinning (rotating) it must do so with a helical precession. To my knowledge, only the secondary helix of the moon orbiting the earth is detected while traveling through the field of space.

Michael, my apologies if I misrepresent your views.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby jtb » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:35 am

Had a discussion last night on whether the moon rotates on its axis and came up with a scientific experiment (observation, experimentation, reason, and logic) to prove that it doesn't. Stretch out your left arm with the palm of your hand facing you. Now rotate your body 360 degrees. Did your hand rotate or did it just change direction?

The same side of the moon always faces Earth: the palm of your hand is the side of the moon facing Earth. Your head is Earth. The palm of your hand (moon) is orbiting your head (Earth) but does not rotate on its axis.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby D_Archer » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:05 am

jtb wrote:Had a discussion last night on whether the moon rotates on its axis and came up with a scientific experiment (observation, experimentation, reason, and logic) to prove that it doesn't. Stretch out your left arm with the palm of your hand facing you. Now rotate your body 360 degrees. Did your hand rotate or did it just change direction?

The same side of the moon always faces Earth: the palm of your hand is the side of the moon facing Earth. Your head is Earth. The palm of your hand (moon) is orbiting your head (Earth) but does not rotate on its axis.
jtb


You got it.

Regards,
Daniel
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:26 am

jtb wrote:Had a discussion last night on whether the moon rotates on its axis and came up with a scientific experiment (observation, experimentation, reason, and logic) to prove that it doesn't. Stretch out your left arm with the palm of your hand facing you. Now rotate your body 360 degrees. Did your hand rotate or did it just change direction?

The same side of the moon always faces Earth: the palm of your hand is the side of the moon facing Earth. Your head is Earth. The palm of your hand (moon) is orbiting your head (Earth) but does not rotate on its axis.
jtb


If I were to hold your arm fixed and forcibly spun your hand about its center, we'd have a big mess. Yet we have no trouble launching satellites into orbit and getting them to spin, and our observations show planetary bodies with variable spin. In other words, it's the chemical bonds, not gravity, holding your hand into place, and tidal locking that causes the spin of the moon to be synchronized with its orbit about the Earth.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:03 pm

If you had a wooden ball with a fixed and static rod through its axis on ball bearings (like a wheel and axle) and then mimicked the orbit and fixed face of the Moon around the Earth you would find that the rod wouldn't have moved but the wooden ball would have. The ball would make exactly one revolution around the fixed rod in one orbit around the Earth. Therefore the Moon rotates around a central axis. The periodicity of this one full rotation, however, is locked in phase within one complete orbit around the Earth in a 1:1 ratio of rotation to orbit.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:02 pm

viscount aero wrote:If you had a wooden ball with a fixed and static rod through its axis on ball bearings (like a wheel and axle) and then mimicked the orbit and fixed face of the Moon around the Earth you would find that the rod wouldn't have moved but the wooden ball would have. The ball would make exactly one revolution around the fixed rod in one orbit around the Earth. Therefore the Moon rotates around a central axis. The periodicity of this one full rotation, however, is locked in phase within one complete orbit around the Earth in a 1:1 ratio of rotation to orbit.


I'm not clear on the details of what you're saying, but going back to jtb's arm experiment, try this instead: Get a bowl of water. Place a smaller bowl into the center so that it floats, and mark it so that you can see how it is oriented. Note you can easily spin the smaller bowl in the water. With everything as still as you can get it, hold the larger bowl out with your arm and slowly spin yourself.

Which way does the smaller bowl orient? Is it like the moon or your palm, always keeping the same face to you? Or does it retain its original orientation?
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:48 pm

chrimony wrote:
viscount aero wrote:If you had a wooden ball with a fixed and static rod through its axis on ball bearings (like a wheel and axle) and then mimicked the orbit and fixed face of the Moon around the Earth you would find that the rod wouldn't have moved but the wooden ball would have. The ball would make exactly one revolution around the fixed rod in one orbit around the Earth. Therefore the Moon rotates around a central axis. The periodicity of this one full rotation, however, is locked in phase within one complete orbit around the Earth in a 1:1 ratio of rotation to orbit.


I'm not clear on the details of what you're saying, but going back to jtb's arm experiment, try this instead: Get a bowl of water. Place a smaller bowl into the center so that it floats, and mark it so that you can see how it is oriented. Note you can easily spin the smaller bowl in the water. With everything as still as you can get it, hold the larger bowl out with your arm and slowly spin yourself.

Which way does the smaller bowl orient? Is it like the moon or your palm, always keeping the same face to you? Or does it retain its original orientation?


It's interesting how everyone has their own way of trying to visualize this. About your idea with the bowls, I think that is saying the same thing. In this case the bowl of water acts as the bearings and the smaller bowl acts as the axle/axis that is fixed. The larger bowl is the Moon. Is this what you mean?

Insofar as my example, just imagine a ball with a rod through it. The rod is the axis and fixed. And the ball can freely move and spin around the rod. Move the ball through space keeping the rod fixed. In order for the Moon's face to show the same side to earth it must actually spin around the fixed rod/axle. Therefore the Moon spins around an axis.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:57 am

viscount aero wrote:It's interesting how everyone has their own way of trying to visualize this. About your idea with the bowls, I think that is saying the same thing. In this case the bowl of water acts as the bearings and the smaller bowl acts as the axle/axis that is fixed. The larger bowl is the Moon. Is this what you mean?


To clarify, the smaller bowl is the moon. The larger bowl is just there to hold the smaller bowl and give it a medium to spin (rotate) freely in while transferring the "gravity" of your arm. So yes, it's just a crude ball bearing.

Insofar as my example, just imagine a ball with a rod through it. The rod is the axis and fixed. And the ball can freely move and spin around the rod. Move the ball through space keeping the rod fixed. In order for the Moon's face to show the same side to earth it must actually spin around the fixed rod/axle. Therefore the Moon spins around an axis.


Yes, I think we're saying the same thing. One thing to point out was that if you performed this experiment like jtb proposed with his hand, with a freely moving ball you wouldn't see the ball spin with respect to the non-spinning room (if you considered yourself as standing still and the room spinning around you, the ball would appear to spin).
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:18 pm

chrimony wrote:
viscount aero wrote:It's interesting how everyone has their own way of trying to visualize this. About your idea with the bowls, I think that is saying the same thing. In this case the bowl of water acts as the bearings and the smaller bowl acts as the axle/axis that is fixed. The larger bowl is the Moon. Is this what you mean?


To clarify, the smaller bowl is the moon. The larger bowl is just there to hold the smaller bowl and give it a medium to spin (rotate) freely in while transferring the "gravity" of your arm. So yes, it's just a crude ball bearing.

Insofar as my example, just imagine a ball with a rod through it. The rod is the axis and fixed. And the ball can freely move and spin around the rod. Move the ball through space keeping the rod fixed. In order for the Moon's face to show the same side to earth it must actually spin around the fixed rod/axle. Therefore the Moon spins around an axis.


Yes, I think we're saying the same thing. One thing to point out was that if you performed this experiment like jtb proposed with his hand, with a freely moving ball you wouldn't see the ball spin with respect to the non-spinning room (if you considered yourself as standing still and the room spinning around you, the ball would appear to spin).


Ok sure. We have our individual imagination experiments to visualize how this works but I think we all agree that the Moon does indeed revolve around an axis, yet this revolution is directly "hidden" or embedded in a 1:1 locking with its rotation around the Earth. This whole issue does make one reconsider the nature of axial rotation. It isn't what it initially seems to be.

The question is do all moons behave this way?
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:58 pm

viscount aero wrote:Ok sure. We have our individual imagination experiments to visualize how this works


The point of my post was that the experiment could easily be performed with household items, mainly a couple of dishes and some water. As an analogy, it's much closer to objects that can freely spin in space than your hand, which is firmly attached to your arm. You'd think this would be obvious, but...

but I think we all agree that the Moon does indeed revolve around an axis, yet this revolution is directly "hidden" or embedded in a 1:1 locking with its rotation around the Earth.
[emphasis added]

Neither jtb nor D_Archer have chimed in lately, who both seemed convinced by an analogy with an arm and palm.

This whole issue does make one reconsider the nature of axial rotation. It isn't what it initially seems to be.


I don't know what you mean.

The question is do all moons behave this way?


It appears that almost all do, though one exception is Hyperion. (Source: 2002 article at Cornell)
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:48 am

chrimony wrote:
viscount aero wrote:Ok sure. We have our individual imagination experiments to visualize how this works


chrimony wrote:The point of my post was that the experiment could easily be performed with household items, mainly a couple of dishes and some water. As an analogy, it's much closer to objects that can freely spin in space than your hand, which is firmly attached to your arm. You'd think this would be obvious, but...


but I think we all agree that the Moon does indeed revolve around an axis, yet this revolution is directly "hidden" or embedded in a 1:1 locking with its rotation around the Earth.
[emphasis added]

chrimony wrote:Neither jtb nor D_Archer have chimed in lately, who both seemed convinced by an analogy with an arm and palm.


Yes. And you can also use your finger of one hand placed in the center of your closed fist of the other hand and mimic a semi-orbit with it. Your finger will stay fixed in the "hole" while your fist keeps its same face (the thumb/palm side) to your body as you move your arms across your torso. You will see that the fist moves around your finger inserted into it. Your closed fist is the moon revolving around your finger axis. Your torso is the Earth.

This whole issue does make one reconsider the nature of axial rotation. It isn't what it initially seems to be.

chrimony wrote:
I don't know what you mean.


People tend to visualize rotation about an axis like a basketball spinning on someone's finger, rapid and easily seen. But in the case of the Moon its rotation about its axis is not at all like this.

The question is do all moons behave this way?


chrimony wrote:It appears that almost all do, though one exception is Hyperion. (Source: 2002 article at Cornell)


Wow that moon's rotation is totally chaotic. Rotation of Hyperion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk8r85lM3SY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgFYy0APTg0

And this:
Saturn's Moon: Phoebe Rotation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iT7zZBiZw

Saturn's Moon: Iapetus Rotation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQgUndcvTGQ

Although off-topic, this is interesting:
If the Moon were replaced with some of our planets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usYC_Z36rHw
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby D_Archer » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:22 am

chrimony wrote:
Neither jtb nor D_Archer have chimed in lately, who both seemed convinced by an analogy with an arm and palm.


I am following this with interest and am still convinced the moon does not rotate around its own axis. Not even once per its own orbit around the earth. It is not logical.

I think the confusion is that people think up a 'virtual axis' and propose the moon rotates around that, but this assumes the 'virtual axis' is stationary (not rotating) with respect to the moon, but the 'virtual axis' must also rotate in its orbit and thus the moon in reality does not rotate around this 'virtual axis' . In this way a fairy-tale of moon rotation around its own axis is born.

Also, if the moon rotated around its own axis, a rotation rate should be able to be discerned when we track the moon across the sky, even if it is just a slight rotation.

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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby chrimony » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:04 am

D_Archer wrote:I am following this with interest and am still convinced the moon does not rotate around its own axis. Not even once per its own orbit around the earth. It is not logical.


You assert that, but you don't address the argument given. jtb proposed an experiment, you agreed with it, and a counter-experiment was proposed.

1) Did you perform it?

2) Do you agree that unlike your hand which is attached to your arm, objects in space are freely able to spin and orbit at the same time?

3) Do you agree in the experiment I described that the smaller bowl sitting in water will not spin with respect to the outer room as you rotate your arm?

3a) And if you agree, what keeps the moon from behaving as the smaller bowl?

3b) If you disagree, why?

I think the confusion is that people think up a 'virtual axis' and propose the moon rotates around that, but this assumes the 'virtual axis' is stationary (not rotating) with respect to the moon, but the 'virtual axis' must also rotate in its orbit and thus the moon in reality does not rotate around this 'virtual axis' . In this way a fairy-tale of moon rotation around its own axis is born.


I don't know what you mean by "virtual axis". We have no trouble putting satellites in orbit and spinning them around a "virtual axis" at arbitrary spin rates. Please explain why this is possible for man-made satellites, but for the moon it is a "fairy-tale".

Also, if the moon rotated around its own axis, a rotation rate should be able to be discerned when we track the moon across the sky, even if it is just a slight rotation.


We can, via libration. Because the orbit of the moon is elliptical, its orbital velocity speeds up and down, which results in a difference between the moon's orbital velocity and rotation. This is detected as libration in longitude, which means we can see more of the left and right sides, as if it was wobbling slightly back and forth in its orbit.
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Re: Does the Moon Rotate?

Unread postby viscount aero » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:05 pm

D_Archer wrote:
chrimony wrote:
Neither jtb nor D_Archer have chimed in lately, who both seemed convinced by an analogy with an arm and palm.


D_Archer wrote:I am following this with interest and am still convinced the moon does not rotate around its own axis. Not even once per its own orbit around the earth. It is not logical.

I think the confusion is that people think up a 'virtual axis' and propose the moon rotates around that, but this assumes the 'virtual axis' is stationary (not rotating) with respect to the moon, but the 'virtual axis' must also rotate in its orbit and thus the moon in reality does not rotate around this 'virtual axis' . In this way a fairy-tale of moon rotation around its own axis is born.


It doesn't matter if it rotates around a stationary axis or a virtual rotating axis through the planetoid/moon. The axis as a fixed thing is there to merely illustrate the idea only. An axis is a virtual "object" anyway. It is only a reference point.

Moreover, if you indeed "fix" the axis but allow the Moon to orbit the Earth, with the same face showing to the Earth at all times, you will see that the Moon's sphere moves around the fixed axis.

You can do this with your finger inserted into your other hand's closed fist. Have your closed fist act as the Moon and then bring it across your chest in a semi-circle to mimic an orbit. Your fist will pivot around the finger of your other hand inserted into the fist. I tried this and it immediately shows the idea. Keep the same "face" of your fist to your chest at all times as you mimic a semi-orbit.

D_Archer wrote:Also, if the moon rotated around its own axis, a rotation rate should be able to be discerned when we track the moon across the sky, even if it is just a slight rotation.

Regards,
Daniel


Well the Moon is locked with the same face to the Earth at all times so you cannot actually discern a rotation. The rotation is embedded in the orbit in a 1:1 ratio. I think this is true because I can physically recreate it with my own hands and arms.
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