Does the Moon Rotate?

[viscount aero]

There would seem to be a relationship between orbital rotation and spin rotation.
Could the confusion be the very term "axis rotation"?
We have seen orbital rotation can potentially move to a spin axis rotation and vice versa.

You're answering your own questions, which is good As stated earlier, the axial rotation of the Moon is locked/synchronous with its full orbit about the Earth. They are one "thing." How did they become this way? That is unknown but the popular theory is "tidal locking."

This video is a great visual demo of this idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZIB_leg75Q

[viscount aero]

I think some posters are having a hard time visualizing Libration. This animation demos it very well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTlCLgWrws0

Although it is interesting, I would drop the libration issue as it only confuses this topic. It has little to do with the general idea behind the Moon's tidally locked rotation about its axis.

[chrimony]

I think some posters are having a hard time visualizing Libration. This animation demos it very well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTlCLgWrws0

Although it is interesting, I would drop the libration issue as it only confuses this topic. It has little to do with the general idea behind the Moon's tidally locked rotation about its axis.

On the contrary, libration is the definitive, quantitative proof that the Moon is indeed rotating and does not always show the same face to the Earth. It is what convinced D_Archer to change his mind and accept that the Moon is rotating. It also isn't that hard to understand. If anything, tidal locking is the more confusing and tangential issue.

But thanks for the video link, it is a good illustration.

[viscount aero]

I think some posters are having a hard time visualizing Libration. This animation demos it very well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTlCLgWrws0

Although it is interesting, I would drop the libration issue as it only confuses this topic. It has little to do with the general idea behind the Moon's tidally locked rotation about its axis.

On the contrary, libration is the definitive, quantitative proof that the Moon is indeed rotating and does not always show the same face to the Earth. It is what convinced D_Archer to change his mind and accept that the Moon is rotating. It also isn't that hard to understand. If anything, tidal locking is the more confusing and tangential issue.

But thanks for the video link, it is a good illustration.

It is hard to understand without literally visualizing it, hence the video animation and why it was created. Even if libration is the final proof, the thrust of confusion isn't libration as most people have never even heard of it nor had any idea of its existence.

The Moon showing the same face to Earth is the crux of the issue which is what lends many to believe that the Moon has no rotational axis.

[chrimony]

It is hard to understand without literally visualizing it, hence the video animation and why it was created.

It isn't that hard. I think people just get hung up on a word they aren't familiar with. But an actual visual demonstration about a visual topic is always helpful, even for simple concepts.

Even if libration is the final proof, the thrust of confusion isn't libration as most people have never even heard of it nor had any idea of its existence.

The source of confusion is taking the fixed rod analogy and applying it to objects in space. It's been addressed many times in this thread. And if despite this, people still want to stick to their guns, libration is the trump card. This is a board to discuss science, is it not?

The Moon showing the same face to Earth is the crux of the issue which is what lends many to believe that the Moon has no rotational axis.

And libration is demonstrative proof that the Moon does not always show the same face to the Earth. It's entirely appropriate to the debate.

[viscount aero]

It is hard to understand without literally visualizing it, hence the video animation and why it was created.

It isn't that hard. I think people just get hung up on a word they aren't familiar with. But an actual visual demonstration about a visual topic is always helpful, even for simple concepts.

Even if libration is the final proof, the thrust of confusion isn't libration as most people have never even heard of it nor had any idea of its existence.

The source of confusion is taking the fixed rod analogy and applying it to objects in space. It's been addressed many times in this thread. And if despite this, people still want to stick to their guns, libration is the trump card. This is a board to discuss science, is it not?

The Moon showing the same face to Earth is the crux of the issue which is what lends many to believe that the Moon has no rotational axis.

And libration is demonstrative proof that the Moon does not always show the same face to the Earth. It's entirely appropriate to the debate.

Sure I agree. But I think that most people are not making the connection of tidal locking as axial rotation (of a fixed-facing body) with libration. I don't even see the connection either. Libration is an interesting side-effect but I don't see how it is the nail on the coffin that indeed proves the Moon's axial rotation is actual and real. To me libration appears to be axial precession. Maybe I answered my own question

[chrimony]

But I think that most people are not making the connection of tidal locking as axial rotation (of a fixed-facing body) with libration. I don't even see the connection either.

As I said, if anything tidal locking is the tangential point here. As you said yourself, tidal locking answers the "how" synchronization between orbit and rotation occurred. Even if the tidal locking answer was wrong, and it was another process that caused the synchronization, libration in longitude would still be definitive proof that the Moon is rotating (the "what").

Libration is an interesting side-effect but I don't see how it is the nail on the coffin that indeed proves the Moon's axial rotation is actual and real. To me libration appears to be axial precession. Maybe I answered my own question

Yeah, it's not axial precession. Libration in longitude addresses the claim that the orbit and the rotation are perfectly synchronized to always show the same face to the Earth, as in a fixed rod. Because the orbit of the Moon about the Earth is not a perfect circle, it speeds up and slows down (slower when farther away, faster when closer). However, since the Moon is in fact rotating (spinning) at a constant speed, this causes a desync between the orbital velocity and rotation rate. The apparent wobbling back and forth from the Earth's perspective is an illusion. If you were standing on the Moon you would see the stars circling around you at a fixed rate.

[viscount aero]

But I think that most people are not making the connection of tidal locking as axial rotation (of a fixed-facing body) with libration. I don't even see the connection either.

As I said, if anything tidal locking is the tangential point here. As you said yourself, tidal locking answers the "how" synchronization between orbit and rotation occurred. Even if the tidal locking answer was wrong, and it was another process that caused the synchronization, libration in longitude would still be definitive proof that the Moon is rotating (the "what").

Libration is an interesting side-effect but I don't see how it is the nail on the coffin that indeed proves the Moon's axial rotation is actual and real. To me libration appears to be axial precession. Maybe I answered my own question

Yeah, it's not axial precession. Libration in longitude addresses the claim that the orbit and the rotation are perfectly synchronized to always show the same face to the Earth, as in a fixed rod. Because the orbit of the Moon about the Earth is not a perfect circle, it speeds up and slows down (slower when farther away, faster when closer). However, since the Moon is in fact rotating (spinning) at a constant speed, this causes a desync between the orbital velocity and rotation rate. The apparent wobbling back and forth from the Earth's perspective is an illusion. If you were standing on the Moon you would see the stars circling around you at a fixed rate.

Ok. That is the "AHA moment" I was looking for. Well-stated. I totally get it now. Thanks Beforehand I didn't really know WTF libration was caused by. You are therefore correct. Regardless of whether "tidal locking" as a theory is correct, the fact remains that the Moon rotates synchronously with it orbit around the Earth. And the libration is more evidence of this. Libration is the Moon "struggling" to maintain this same face with Earth as it moves around its own axis. Once you mentioned the elliptical orbit of the Moon (as its velocity changes around the Earth with increasing/decreasing distance) and "desync" I learned something from you. Thank you.

[Sparky]

What did I miss?.....I am lost with this tidal lock/synchronous orbit thing....

All that I can find are definitions,,,Is there a good, basic explanation somewhere?

[viscount aero]

What did I miss?.....I am lost with this tidal lock/synchronous orbit thing....

All that I can find are definitions,,,Is there a good, basic explanation somewhere?

Watch the video animation. It will show how libration happens. Libration is the Moon 'struggling" to stay with the same face to Earth, its resistance. It wants to break free and spin on its axis faster but it cannot. The Earth forces the Moon to lock one face to the Earth as it orbits.

[dukemh]

Had a look at libration and need to go over it again to sink in properly. Immediate 'mind' problem is that I am having some difficulty visualising the moon rotating on its own axis and being able to move in the manner it does (from the video). You cant turn/spin an object on its own axis in 2 directions at the same time. Tilt, plane, elliptical considerations yes. (official/standard ... Moon rotates counterclockwise on its axis). Therefore will be looking for any movement that would be contrary to a counterclockwise spin.
Will pick up asap but loads of work to do first.

[viscount aero]

Had a look at libration and need to go over it again to sink in properly. Immediate 'mind' problem is that I am having some difficulty visualising the moon rotating on its own axis and being able to move in the manner it does (from the video). You cant turn/spin an object on its own axis in 2 directions at the same time. Tilt, plane, elliptical considerations yes. (official/standard ... Moon rotates counterclockwise on its axis). Therefore will be looking for any movement that would be contrary to a counterclockwise spin.
Will pick up asap but loads of work to do first.

You're overthinking it.

[dukemh]

Yes it would seem over thinking it. My problem is I like to understand rather than just accept. I can accept the inevitable truth based on what I have learnt recently but at the same time I feel that it doesn't have to be that way although now it would be most bold to state otherwise and I have not enough knowledge/education to argue 'the potential other side'. Being a very practical type person, I think it may have to do with a different kind of thinking, as much is related to non existent 'axis' and maths out of my scope.
Just after looking up sphere and axis - the maths is hideous! Even turns out there is special case for free rotating sphere and axis. Not the same as a fixed rotating axis where my 'logic' clearly resides (nuts and bolts). I am not going to bother looking as it will no doubt be over my head in maths but I have to say a 'special case' would have to be something really out of my thinking to allow a sphere to turn on one axis and different direction at the same time.
Thanks for all helpful support and comments you have given.

[viscount aero]

Yes it would seem over thinking it. My problem is I like to understand rather than just accept. I can accept the inevitable truth based on what I have learnt recently but at the same time I feel that it doesn't have to be that way although now it would be most bold to state otherwise and I have not enough knowledge/education to argue 'the potential other side'. Being a very practical type person, I think it may have to do with a different kind of thinking, as much is related to non existent 'axis' and maths out of my scope.
Just after looking up sphere and axis - the maths is hideous! Even turns out there is special case for free rotating sphere and axis. Not the same as a fixed rotating axis where my 'logic' clearly resides (nuts and bolts). I am not going to bother looking as it will no doubt be over my head in maths but I have to say a 'special case' would have to be something really out of my thinking to allow a sphere to turn on one axis and different direction at the same time.
Thanks for all helpful support and comments you have given.

I think everyone here wants to understand things rather than just accept what is told by the mainstream authority. But realise that axial rotation is not only taking the form of a fast and visibly spinning ball around an axis, like a basketball on the tip of a finger. All rotation about an axis doesn't always look like that. Likewise, all mainstream physics isn't wrong and in need of being debunked at every hair trigger. Most applied physics is dead-on correct even if some of the phenomena that it is subject to is not entirely understood.

[Sparky]

I suggest that Miles Mathis could explain this, but I can't access his pdf files.....

He shows that the tides on Earth are charge from the moon....clever!...