CharlesChandler wrote:Michael Mozina wrote:The differential rotation is related to the rotation patterns that are observed in the plasma photosphere, not the solid surface that is about 4800KM under the photosphere.
No, the differential rotation extends down to .7 of the solar radius, or 200,000 km under the photosphere. Below that level we see solid body rotation, which means that it could actually be a solid. Above that level, the rate of rotation depends on the altitude. If there's a "solid" crust at a depth of 4800 km, it has been ground into pieces small enough that they flow like a liquid.
I don't think it's a liquid or we wouldn't see such a persistence in the structures observed in RD images, sometimes spanning many hours and even days. A liquid would 'flow' quite visually in RD imagery and angular structures would be uncommon rather than the 'norm'.
Michael Mozina wrote:It's the rising "hot" (relatively speaking it's hotter than most) silicon plasma that has expanded and started to rise. Once it reaches the chromosphere/photosphere boundary, the density change is too great for it to continue upwards, so it spreads out and eventually sinks back into the photosphere. It's still "cooler" the the top of the photosphere because the whole silicon plasma layer is *much* cooler than the top of the photosphere, just as the average temp of the photosphere is dramatically different from the very top of the chromosphere/corona boundary.
I don't understand this. The silicon heats up, so it rises to the top, and then it spreads out and sinks back down, because it is cooler than the photosphere? I think that you're saying that it is cooler than itself.
Sorry. Let me try again and simplify a bit. Think for a bit only in terms of one layer of the atmosphere, in this case, a relatively deep silicon layer. The coronal loops traverse the 'atmosphere', heating up specific areas of the atmosphere. The largest loops can sometime concentrate around 'active regions' (I'll leave it at that). When this occurs, the heat around the loop concentration causes the silicon atmosphere to heat up in that region. It creates a process much like occurs on Earth when the heat from the Earth causes hot air to up into the atmosphere where it cools off and eventually disperses itself into the atmosphere. If there is enough turbulence in the atmosphere, we actually start to observe the formation of tornado like vortexes of dense material that will absorb light in 171A as emitted by coronal loops in the atmosphere.
In this case it's not actually the surface itself that is releasing the bulk of the heat into the atmosphere, it's the coronal loop activity that releases heat that is concentrated in one area. Larger active regions can remain active over days and weeks rather than hours. If enough heat is released into the atmosphere from these discharge loops, a column of rising heated silicon plasma starts to form in the atmosphere. There is a volcanic aspect that I'll try to simply ignore, but it does play a role in the atmospheric heating process IMO.
If and only if the loop concentration in the active region remains high, that rising column of heated silicon plasma reaches the neon photosphere, a relatively thin, and light material in comparison to the column of rising silicon plasma. If that column of rising silicon plasma has enough force, or it's supported by large coronal loop activity, and tornado like formations from below, the silicon plasma will actually flow up and through the relatively thin neon layer, like clear air rising up through the cloud cover in the eye of a hurricane.
A sunspot is much like looking down the eye of a hurricane from space. We can 'see through' the cloud cover (neon layer) in that one area where the silicon plasma rises to the top of that surface.
The density gradient between the hot silicon plasma (hot in terms of the average temperature for silicon atmospheric plasma) and the thin neon isn't nearly as great as the density gradient that occurs once the silicon reaches the helium chromosphere. At that surface, the density gradient changes so abruptly that the silicon has nowhere to go but to 'spread out' and it will eventually sink back into the silicon atmosphere.
Does that help? I'll round up some movie again that show the correlation between the angles of large coronal loops and the angles of penumbral filaments around sunspots. You'll notice a correlation. That upward flow of plasma in coronal loops acts to 'push back" the neon atmosphere.
So the silicon plasma sitting on the crust gains 4000 degrees, and that's why it rises? Where did it get the heat?
It's actually silicon plasma that is located *above* the surface, but is located in close proximity to large clusters of coronal loops. In other words the surface is close to 1200K, but the discharge loops are millions of degrees. It's these discharges that dump the bulk of the heat into the atmosphere, not the surface itself. That can of course during volcanic activity IMO. Most of the time however the loops release the bulk of the heat into the atmosphere, not the crust. The crust is a bit player in terms of the net energy release of the solar atmosphere. The bulk of the heat comes from the resistance to electrons streaming from the surface, and from the discharge filament channels in the solar atmosphere.
You can't call it thermionic emissions, because then the crust would be hotter than the plasma absorbing the heat. That leaves ohmic heating as the crucial conversion, right? I "think" that you'll agree on that, but...
If we assume there's a cathode involved, then electrons have to flow through the atmosphere. It is ultimately ohmic heating.
Michael Mozina wrote:Both gravity and EM fields act to mass separate the plasmas, and silicon simply isn't as "bright" as neon in the visual spectrum, and it's much thicker and cooler than the surface of the neon layer.
The silicon gained 4000 degrees (from ohmic heating?), which is why it rises to the surface, where it finds itself much thicker and cooler that the neon at the surface, so it falls back into the Sun?
The hot silicon eventually reaches the helium chromosphere boundary. At that point the density gradient between silicon and helium is so great that the silicon has nowhere to go but to 'spread out' creating angular holes in the neon where it flares out across the surface of the photosphere.
How does the neon get heated? Does the thicker and cooler silicon heat it up? Or does the ohmic heating preferentially act on the neon? Does ohmic heating increase in thinner plasma?
I think it might be more productive for us to speak in terms of ionization states due to the cathode/anode/current flow process going on between the heliosphere and deeper layers of the sun. That current acts to put both the neon and the silicon plasma into relatively high ionization states. It 'can' but doesn't have to lead to extremely high temperatures, but the heat from the loops has to go somewhere and it will convect up and toward the surface of the photosphere.
CharlesChandler wrote:Agreed, but that doesn't explain how the temperature jumps up 4000 degrees in 4800 km.
IMO is mostly related to the heat released by the current carrying (million degree) loops. You would get burned by the ion plasma temperature in a discharge channel in the Earth's atmosphere if you didn't get electrocuted first.
There is ultimately some resistance to such large currents and the loops generate a lot of atmospheric heat. The also erode huge chucks off the surface as seen in the LMSAL RD image.
It sounds like you're saying that what lights up the photosphere is coronal loops, is that correct?
No. The light source of all iron ion SDO are the loops, but the photosphere is in a state of glow mode discharge due to the currents flowing from the cathode below. It's like a neon light bulb that is lit up by the currents traversing the neon. It's not coronal loops we observe from the photosphere, it's the white light generated by the surface of the photosphere. In the areas where the silicon plasma has displaced the Neon, there is less white light being emitted by the Silicon. It has almost nothing to do with actual ion temperatures IMO.
If so, why are the coronal loops so dim that we can only see them if the photosphere is completely eclipsed?
I think we're discussing streamers seen in white light, and they are just too dim to be seen against the neon photosphere without blocking out the photosphere.
And why would the center of sunspots be darker, when they are just as exposed to the coronal loops as the surrounding photosphere?
Again, it's the neon double layer that is experiencing a glow mode discharge that emits the bulk of the white light that we observe with our eyes. The vast majority of coronal loops produce little or no white light. Most of the light they produce relates to superheated iron ions like 211A, 335A, 171A, 193A, 131A, and 94A. Most of those loops and light sources remain *under* the photosphere and could never be seen in white light images against a much brighter neon photosphere. The 1600A and 1700A images also show light that is related to the glow mode discharge process at the surface of the photosphere and it's not (usually but sometimes) related to coronal loop activity. The interesting part of 1600A images is they 'briefly' show the loops coming up and through the photosphere around sunspot activity if the conditions are just right.
I agree -- I'm just saying that they are rising (because they are attracted to the heliosphere) in the presence of the Sun's overall magnetic field, which generates a Lorentz force that induces rotation.
The only thing I'll add is that those rising electrons are also what put the Neon plasma layer into a glow mode discharge and cause that layer to emit such an abundance of white light. The neon is full of impurities due to the turbulence of the photosphere, and the combined effect is a bright neon layer which sits atop a much 'darker' silicon layer, at least in white light.
In the more general sense, I hate to sound so critical, but if we're going to make any progress here, you have to listen to the logic, and consider the physical implications of what you're saying. You can't just say something over and over again, and expect people to finally come around to your way of seeing things. I think that you have some rare insights into the significances of different types of data. But there are also some disconnects in your model, and until you realize the ramifications of those problems, your model will not move forward.
I hear you, I understand you, and I agree with you. I wouldn't expect you to move forward with something you didn't understand (at least not as I meant it) or didn't agree with. I'd rather you and I just "chat" for awhile and you give me your honest opinions. Whatever happens, happens. If you move my way, great. If I move you way, great. I guarantee you that I usually have the hardest time properly *explaining* the ideas I'm trying to convey, even to those individuals who are open to these ideas. You and I should be able to communicate pretty clearly over time because we aren't hostile towards each others ideas, it's likely that neither one of us properly understands the others model yet. We're still in the communication stage I would say. I'll keep trying to clarify and you keep trying to find the holes in my model.
I will say this much, I owe your model a fair shake and we need have have an open conversation at some point about how you would explain the iron ion imagery, and the persistence of coronal loop activity with a 'liquid' cathode. I think we're actually in agreement that the sun is a cathode with respect to the heliosphere, and that cathode sits under the surface of the photosphere. We agree on the ohmic heating issues. I think we still need to clarify the whole glow mode discharge process as it relates to neon and white light, but we'll get there. About the only thing we'll likely be "pig headed" about is the state of matter at the point of solar moss activity. I'm assuming that's your cathode surface too, but it's a liquid whereas I assume it's solid based on my interpretation of high energy satellite imagery.
The people here will not follow you just because of your tenacity.
I agree. I assume that pretty much everyone here is equally tenacious or they wouldn't even frequent these parts to begin with. It takes quite a thick skin, quite a keen intellect, and more than a little bit of tenacity to see through the BS that the mainstream dishes out on a daily basis. I assume everyone that posts here is my equal as it relates to personal issues and attitudes. At this point it's all about the physics and only the physics.
The type of person who would is still following the mainstream, which has longevity on its side. So you can't compete on those grounds. If you come here, you'll find people who are willing to listen to new ideas, but who also are not impressed by band-standing. They are in search of something that makes sense, not just something that sounds good and doesn't seem to be phased by criticisms.
Just be sure you're criticizing *my* ideas, and not your own misunderstandings of what I'm saying. I'm the first to admit that I'm not always the best communicator of these ideas and I take things for granted that I should not in terms of what I 'think' people already understand. For instance I 'assumed' you understood that the Neon photosphere was experiencing a glow mode discharge because we both agree it's a cathode. I didn't realize the confusion over the white light images until just now. I'm sorry I didn't clearly explain that earlier.
I wouldn't have said anything except for the fact that you have a firm grasp of a lot of useful information, and I think that you're squandering your opportunity to lead this initiative by not acknowledging opportunities to improve the accuracy of your model.
Half of the battle seems to be *correctly* explaining my model and correctly conveying the key points of my model. Most of the criticisms I've taken thus far from EU haters (not you personally) has been 'less than honest" in the sense that they took no time to properly understand it before criticizing it. I appreciate the fact that you've spend a lot of hours trying to understand this model at this point, and yet it's also clear that there are some areas where I have failed to properly convey these ideas. I appreciate your efforts and I will try to do a better job of communicating these ideas and a better job listening to and addressing your criticisms. I actually very much appreciate what you've already done in terms of your efforts to understand my beliefs. I respect your efforts a great deal Charles. I see a *lot* of areas of agreement between us, and only a few areas where we still have some differences. I think however that Birkeland would be quite happy with our conversations about a cathode sun, and he would agree with a lot of both of our models. At this point I have no ego about whether you are right or I am right about the cathode being a solid or a liquid. It's almost (not quite) a minor detail from my perspective. Any recognition at the sun is a cathode is a *huge* improvement over standard theory and *way* more than I will ever get from the vast majority of the population on planet earth. I'm thrilled at the progress we've made in our discussions in understanding each other thus far, and I'm confident with enough time, effort and maybe a beer or two, we'll resolve our scientific differences. I like your honest approach, and I take full responsibility for any failures in communication at this point. I've seen the effort you've made to understand what I'm saying, and I've *really* appreciated it.
You see and understand the problems with the mainstream, and you understand that a major change is in progress. Today's disenfranchised wild-eyed iconoclasts are making tomorrow's pioneering theoretical break-throughs. But do you realize that there might be a Copernicus among us, and that it might be you?
At this point in my life I've come to believe that it is better to work in 'teams' and better to share any "scientific breakthroughs" with others, most importantly those who originally promoted these ideas. After reading through Birkeland's work, it became clear to me that he was the next 'Copernicus', but he's no longer among us. That's how slow the mainstream is as recognizing the value of empirical physics. I just hope I'm not dead before they figure it out.