* Last Thursday, Charles Chandler, Michael Mozina and I, Lloyd Kinder, had a good discussion of their Electric Sun models at this Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_wUsGgmF-W4j1vd1pQPvSuj7dewKVmm2CsPuqEGS2fQ/edit.
Next Discussion
We plan to have another one this coming Thursday at 8 PM Eastern time. I may start a new Document for the next discussion. Anyone with the link was able to watch our discussion last time and I plan to provide that option again. If anyone would like to participate in the discussion, you can either make comments in the chat box in the lower right during the discussion, or you can request to be a direct participant, if you're knowledgeable on solar features.
Points of Discussion
* Below is Michael Mozina's Electric Iron Neutron Core Sun Model from our last discussion. In the next message, I'll post Charles Chandler's Model from that discussion. They each divided their models into separate points before the discussion started and I added == before each of their points. Then, after the discussion was finished, I divided the comments into further separate points under the initial points. I'm using this mark, >, to show which points I want to discuss in the next discussion.
MM's Model:
See http://thesurfaceofthesun.com.
==M1. Sun’s Core: Oliver Manuel’s model is most probable:
==M2. the Sun’s core is a small neutron star
_M2.1. which rotates rapidly on its axis
_M2.2.1. and rotates slowly on the Z axis every 22 years, or every 2 solar cycles.
>_M2.2.2. The rotation of the core is what creates the N/S solar cycle changes IMO.
>_M2.3. the neutron material is the basis for all heavy objects in space, including so called ‘black holes’. See: On the Cosmic Nuclear Cycle and the Similarity of Nuclei and Stars
_M2.4. the neutron core provides a neutrino source,
_M2.5. The gravitational forces at/near the core, along with strong pressures prevent the core from becoming unstable IMO.
>_M2.6. The core is ultimately the source of all hydrogen that flows from the sun,
>_M2.7. and it helps sustain a fusion process near the core IMO.
==M3. Supernova: the current sun formed from a former supernova remnant.
>_L. EU theorists say supernovae are electrical double layer explosions, that are not symmetrical and can’t compress matter into neutron stars. Do you disagree? If so, why?
_M 3.1. Neutronium: IMO neutron material is “primordial”.
_M 3.2. It decays to produce protons and electrons
_M 3.3. and fusion and fission produce heavier elements over time.
_M 3.4. It doesn’t have to be “compressed”. It’s always existed.
>_M 3.5. It eventually decays to the point that the core becomes unstable
>_M 3.6. and that can produce a supernova event.
>_M 3.7. There may be a remnant of the core left after the supernova event, or the core may be so small that it explodes completely.
_M 3.8. IMO only the very largest supernova events can actually “compress” material near the core.
_M 3.9. Perhaps in such events the core can gain mass, but typically it doesn’t IMO.
_L. How is neutronium primordial, if it comes from supernovae?
_M 3.10. _MM It is simply the most “ancient” of large/stable “structures”.
It can “form” in larger events, but it’s the base material of all heavier elements.
>_M 3.11. The heavier elements are simply created from the hydrogen in fusion processes
>_M 3.12. that are occurring in pinched, current carrying threads near the core, and also in the solar atmosphere.
>_M 3.13. That pinch process also releases free neutrons from the plasma.
_L. Where do you detect neutronium in the universe?
_M 3.14. _MM Probably the greatest “weakness” of this model is the fact that stable neutron material has never been created in a lab. I’m actually a big fan of empirical physics.
_M 3.15. There are however many observations of “heavy” objects in space, most notably in and around the core of galaxies.
_M 3.16. IMO gravity does take over at some point
_M 3.17. and does have the capacity to cause matter to become “crushed” by enough pressure to create a neutron core.
>_M 3.18. The neutrons act to repulse one another due to the layered structure, with an external negative shell.
_L. What do you think it will take to prove your model, or that neutronium exists?
>==M4. Density Gradient: Above the small neutron core is superheated, pressurized plasma up to just under the rigid crust, approximately 4800KM under the surface of the photosphere.
_L. The rigid surface under the photosphere is the most believable part of your model, which is also consistent with Brant’s. That’s the part that’s based on those satellite running difference images.
>_M 4.1. The “rigid” surface part of the theory can be demonstrated IMO,
_M 4.2. but it will require a very specific type of solar flare, specifically one that spews matter in a roughly horizontal direction rather than up and away from the sun.
I’ve seen several such events in SOHO images of the last cycle.
So far I haven’t seen an IDEAL flare, but I’ve seen at least one event near the horizon that did show the mass deflections from rigid features that I am looking for.
>_M 4.3. The “core” of this model can probably only be verified via helioseismology.
The rapid rotation of the core should be something that can eventually be validated by helioseismology techniques,
but I don’t think the models are advanced enough yet, and the core is far too difficult to image at the moment.
_M 4.4. that RD gold image on my website spans a timeline of an hour and a half
_M 4.5. and includes a CME event.
>_M 4.6. There is virtually NO plasma drift seen in the rigid features of that image.
_M 4.7. the structures of the photosphere tend to come and go in 8 minute intervals.
_M 4.8. Most of the loop activity takes place under the photosphere and the heated plasma rises.
_M 4.9. The loops and the discharge process itself provide a lot of the heat that you’re looking for.
_M 4.10. The surface in Birkeland’s solar model is charged negative compared to the heliosphere.
_L. Isn’t _CC’s Density Gradient illustration below correct,
which shows major density changes at about .27R and .7R?
And doesn’t that mean that the iron layer tops out at about .7R?
>_M 4.11. There does seem to be a density change at approximately .995R according to the data.
FYI, I used Kosovichev’s work to determine the location of the surface in relationship to the photosphere based on this paper and several other studies of his.
_M 4.12. It just so happens that the SDO first light images show exactly that same 4800KM figure between the photosphere and the surface. SDO first light images http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0510111
_L. You don’t agree with _CC’s Rs at .27 and .7?
>==M5. the atmosphere above the rigid crust is mass separated plasma arranged in various layers based upon their atomic weight.
_M 5.1. The corona is mostly composed of Hydrogen,
_M 5.2. the chromosphere is primarily composed of Helium
_M 5.3. and the photosphere is composed of mostly Neon.
==M6. Under the visible Neon photosphere of approximately 500KM sits a much thicker Silicon plasma layer
_M 6.a. that meets up with the photosphere that is approximately 4000KM thick.
==M7. There “may be” a relatively thin calcium plasma layer between the surface and the silicon plasma layer of approximately 300KM.
I’m currently debating that point based on SDO images.
_M 7.1. The Silicon layer may simply meet up with the rigid surface and may simply be 300KM thicker than originally estimated.
_M 7.2. The Calcium emissions seem to be primarily related to photospheric emissions IMO.
==M8. The neutron star core emits neutrons
==M9. which decay into electrons and protons,
==M10. which produce hydrogen plasma close to the core
_M10.1. which interacts with the rotating core producing fusion.
_M10.2. Circuits: There are at least three key parts of this model, each requiring verification/falsification.
The first “objection” I ran into in cyberspace was not even “controversial” from my perspective, namely that
_M10.3. electrical discharges were occurring in the solar atmosphere in and around active regions.
IMO the “circuit” orientation to coronal loop modeling has progressed a lot over the past decade. Mann and Onel have a GREAT paper on this by the way. This aspect of solar physics HAS actually been demonstrated IMO. I’ve posted relevant links on Thunderbolts (and JREF).
_M10.4. the charge separation mechanism is occurring in the plasma pinch process that is associated with coronal loops.
>_M10.5. The pinch process triggers a number of hydrogen and CNO fusion reactions inside the pinch.
_M10.6. The z-machine has generated neutron capture signatures from high energy electrical discharges as well as very high temperatures (greater than the core of the sun). http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0512633
_M10.7. the charge separation mechanism is the plasma pinch http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.0813
_M10.8. According to Alfven the rotation of plasma in the photosphere creates areas of positive and negative charges in and around sunspots.
_M10.9. The magnetogram images confirm that model
_M10.10. they show a distinct set of polarity islands around sunspot activity.
_M10.11. That’s caused by the direction of the current through the loops as they traverse the surface.
>_M10.12. I suppose convection is the driving mechanism.
>_M10.13. the energy release in granules is by Birkeland’s cathode
_M10.14. constantly discharging itself to the heliosphere (space in his words).
_M10.15. That produces heat in the plasma and generates heat throughout the atmosphere.
_M10.16. The coronal loops are typically much smaller than the large ones we observe in flare events.
_M10.17. They occur all along the surface and usually cover only a few kilometers at most.
_M10.18. Only the largest ones ever break through the photosphere.
_M10.19. Most of the heat produced in those loops are transferred to the silicon plasma layer
_M10.20. and that heat convects up to and through the photosphere.
_M10.21. There are at least two primary heat sources between the surface of the sun/rigid surface and the top of the photosphere IMO.
_M10.22. The convection process is simply an electrically driven process IMO.
_M10.23. I agree about the electrons.
>_M10.24. Protons tend to be pulled along in the wake of the electron flow in Birkeland’s model.
Birkeland discusses his solar model
You might take a look at that article from the New York times in the link above.
_M10.25. Birkeland explains that the solar wind is related to charge separation between the sun and space.
I’ll do some reading on your model this week and I’m sure I’ll have some additional questions at that point.
You might as well post links to both models on this page since we both have websites on our models.
_L. Michael just said: FYI CC,
_M10.26. the convection process is related to heat released in the coronal loops.
_CC: How does heat in the coronal loops cause convection down to 200,000 km below the photosphere?
_MM: It doesn’t.

>_M10.27. The only heat released at the surface of the photosphere is the heat produced in the bulk of the loops below the surface of the photosphere IMO.
_M10.28. It’s also heat produced by the current flowing between the solid/rigid surface and the heliosphere.
>_M10.29. That current traverses all the atmospheric layers of plasma IMO.
>_M10.30. The light in iron ion wavelength images is produced inside the coronal loops.
_M10.31. The loops range in size from the very small, less than a kilometre (less than a single pixel) to very large, much larger than the Earth.
_M10.32. Most of the small loops follow the surface contours, and remain FAR below the photosphere. _M10.33. Only the largest ones rise up and through the surface of the photopshere.
_M10.34. Most of the smaller ones simply produce heat that must “convect” toward the surface.