what is charge?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby hermit_of_chad » Mon May 26, 2008 7:24 am

"Mathematical proof that the electron is a spherical electromagnetic standing wave" or circular reasoning ?

Wikipedia indicates that the electron radius is a derived quantity, defined as (1/4.pi.e0) . (q^2 / m.c^2) where q = charge of an electron.
"In simple terms, the classical electron radius is roughly the size the electron would need to have for its mass to be completely due to its electrostatic potential energy"
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_electron_radius.

Therefore it's not surprising that the electron mass can be derived from the values for radius and charge!
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby volantis » Mon May 26, 2008 7:30 am

Charge is not an object. Charge is a dimension. Objects can possess the dimension of charge (and, in fact, every object does). Charge has the quality of being distributed. That is, all charge always corresponds with an area (surface), not a point. Electrons are not charges. Electrons possess the dimension of charge.

As Junglelord noted, there are two types of charge dimensions. There is electrostatic charge (spherical) and electromagnetic charge (toroidal). Although modern science only recognizes electrostatic charge (elementary charge), there is an abundance of evidence demonstrating the two types of charges. One of the most convincing proofs of the two types are charges is a dimensional analysis of the magnetic moment constants of the subatomic particles. Such an analysis appears near the end of this paper:

http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf

It is because all objects possess the property of charge that we can explain the Universe from an electrical perspective.

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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby StevenO » Mon May 26, 2008 7:31 am

What is charge?
I answer with a question - What is Energy?

Charge is (equal to) space (length). Energy is time/space (the reverse of velocity). That's the one-dimensional version. Momentum and mass are the two and three dimensional energy forms respectively.

In a philosophical description Charge is seeking a state of undividness with its opposite charge, that of charge equalization.

That is because we drive a wedge into space by splitting it with our time dimension. It's a human construct. Space is just doing what it does.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby junglelord » Mon May 26, 2008 9:01 am

How can charge be equal to space-length?
They are seperate things StevenO.
That sounds like E = m.c^2
There is no true equality in that formula, rather it is an expression, certainly not a valid equation. The same goes for your equality expression. For someone with such a great education and understanding of math, I am surprised again at your off handed comments. What equality is there in that statement?

I am only interested in real equations with real equality. Quantum constants comes to mind. For example...
Columbs constant is the quantum constant for electrostatic charge. That does not equal Comptons wavelength which is the quantum constant for length.

Coulombs constant does not equal Comptons wavelength! Therefore it is impossible for one to equal the other.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby StevenO » Mon May 26, 2008 9:59 am

junglelord wrote:How can charge be equal to space-length?

The dimension of charge is equal to the dimension of length.

That sounds like E = m.c^2
There is no true equality in that formula, rather it is an expression, certainly not a valid equation.

E (=>T/S) = m(=>(T/S)^3) / c^2(=>S/T)^2, where T=Time dimension, S=Space dimension(==charge), so in terms of dimensions it is correct.

The same goes for your equality expression. For someone with such a great education and understanding of math, I am surprised again at your off handed comments. What equality is there in that statement?

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but the first thing is to check that the physical dimensions on both side are correct. Can't multiply apples with peres.

I am only interested in real equations with real equality. Quantum constants comes to mind. For example...
Columbs constant is the quantum constant for electrostatic charge. That does not equal Comptons wavelength which is the quantum constant for length.

But you have to show where the constants come from. Why are they quantized and why are they constant?

Coulombs constant does not equal Comptons wavelength! Therefore it is impossible for one to equal the other.

Wavelength is a single length dimension, just like charge.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby RobertFritzius » Mon May 26, 2008 10:01 am

Here's a link to my version of what charge is.

In essence, protons and electrons are in the business of absorbing and emitting momentum carrying particles (called positrinos and negatrinos) which, when they collide with other protons and electrons, produce electrical forces.

The model has an explanation for "so called" electrical attraction (Repulsion is easy) and gravity is thrown in as a very understandable "freeby" which gets re-invented about every 20 years, i.e. push gravity or shielding gravity. (I wasn't, by any means, the first to come up with the explanation.) So-called strong and weak interactions are handled in appended articles.

Emission-Absorption-Scattering Sub-quantum Physics
http://www.datasync.com/~rsf1/eas.htm

Bob Fritzius
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby junglelord » Mon May 26, 2008 10:18 am

E has no value, same for m, while c has a value and is a constant. Therefore the constants are well known and to place them in proper order is no big deal. In fact once one does, the first thing we see is that there is no equality in E = m.c^2 not even in dimensions, especially because the constant c is not a dimension!

E (=>T/S) = m(=>(T/S)^3) / c^2(=>S/T)^2, where T=Time dimension, S=Space dimension(==charge), so in terms of dimensions it is correct.


You have no value for time, length/space, just represented as items, with no value, yet c retains value and has a constant. That is apples and oranges. That is an expression, not an equation with equality and with value and constants.

Energy does not equal mass, cubed or not, even with the quantum constant of c applied. Energy and mass, and your S/T has no value. Give me some quantum constants for those items please.
Last edited by junglelord on Mon May 26, 2008 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby klypp » Mon May 26, 2008 10:24 am

StevenO:
Energy is time/space (the reverse of velocity).

Speed is length per time. If you reverse that, you'll find that time per length is an equally good expression for - speed!

Speed is a human concept, and length per time is a convention. We could just as well choose time per length to measure speed.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby junglelord » Mon May 26, 2008 12:36 pm

APM quotes I made into questions.
21. What is the measurement of those constants?
Answer page 22
a) quantum length equal to Compton wavelength, = 2.426310238 x 10^-12 m^19
notated as lambda sub in SOTA (in this document as Lq)
b) quantum frequency equal to speed of light divided by the quantum length = c / Lq = 1.23558998 x 10^20 Hz
c) quantum mass is equal to the mass of one electron = 9.1093826 x 10^-31 kg
notated as m(e)
d) quantum charge = Electrostatic charge = 2.566969633 x 10^-38 Coul squared
notated as e^2
Electromagnetic Charge = angular momentum x conductance of the aether,
notated as e emax^2

22. How do the unit of dimensions notate in APM?
Answer page 23
As four letter variables that suggests the unit function.
For example current notates as I in the Maxwell equation. In APM current is notated as curr, potential is notated as potn, resistance is notated as resn.

23. What is ohms law in APM?
Answer page 23
potn = curr x resn (eq. 1.1)

24. What is the difference between APM "constants" and other systems?
Answer page 23
In APM quantum measurements and quantum units also serve as quantum constants. Other systems have constants but not quantum constants.

25. Name two common constants that become quantum constants in APM.
Answer page 23
a) quantum velocity is equal to speed of light notated as c
b) quantum angular momentum is equal to Planck's constant notated as h.

26. How do the units of dimensions build from quantum measurements?
Answer page 23
A unit of potential is a unit of dimension made of quantum measurement.
potn = m(e) x Lq squared x Fq squared divided by e emax^2 (eq. 1.2)

Where
m(e) = mass @ electron,
Lq = quantum length,
Fq = quantum frequency,
e emax<2> = EM charge @ electron

but in the case of velc = Lq x Fq = c (eq 1.3)
we can substitute c

27. Are there any other exceptions to the four letter rule other than c, in APM?
Answer page 23
The quantum unit for energy in APM is the Tibetan word "tshankha". Tshankha means energy with force and power. Tshankha represents energy in APM, as energy of a stable onta is sacred.
enrg = m(e) x Lq squared x Fq squared = tshankhas (eq. 1.4)

28. Does E = mc squared qualify in APM?
Answer page 24
No

29. Why does E = mc squared, not qualify in APM?
Answer page 24
Because the variables have dimensions but no value. Therefore it is not a true equation, rather an expression or formula.
If E and m had inherent value, as does the constant c then E = 1 unit and m = 1 unit
therefore E does not equal mc squared because there is no true equality!

30. What replaces E = mc squared in APM?
Answer page 24
enrg = m(e) x Lq squared x Fq squared
In APM all the quantum units have a quantum measurement.

31. Quantum measurements and quantum units are quantum constants in APM. Many essential constants already existent classic physics. What existing constants does APM recognize?
Answer page 25
Coulombs constant, gravitational constant, the speed of light, permeability of free space, permittivity of free space, Planck's constant, fine structure constant of the electron and the Compton wavelength retain the same values, dimensions and nomenclature as in the Standard Model.

32. What new constants and quantum units appear in APM?
Answer page 25
Conductance of the aether, which is essential for calculating and understanding the nature of strong charge. APM also produces the Aether constant, which is Au or rmfd. The aether constant is equal to K(c) x 16pi^2. K(c) is coulombs constant. The Gforce is also a new constant, which might be mentioned at this time.

End of Quiz, SOTA, Chapter One / Quantum Structure

Chapter 3 SOTA third edition, Gforce
Gforce
1. What is the quantum constant of the Gforce?
Answer Page 44
1.21 x 10^44 Newton is the quantum constant of the Gforce. Generally, we think of force as pressure exerted over an area. The pressure can be either positive or negative (vacuum). Force applies to either pushing or pulling something. The Gforce operates in the same way. The Gforce both pushes and pulls masses together or apart and pushes or pulls charge together or apart. Oddly, these are the only two manifestations of force in the universe. The only manifestation of force is either push or pull, relative to mass or charge. It is truly the only force in the universe, and it acts directly through the primary angular momentum and charge of each onn. Primary angular momentum is the physical description of the electron, photon, proton, and neutron. Physical strong charges the result a primary angular momentum spinning with in the Aether unit. Essentially, primary angular momentum and physical strong charge describe the same onn, but from orthogonal perspectives. Every individual quantum of Aether has the full effect of the Gforce acting through it. This Gforce acts upon the three physical qualities of onta, angular momentum, strong charge, and electrostatic charge. Thus, the quantum Aether units and onta can perform individually or collectively as fields and matter. The results of these interactions are a dynamic universe.

2. What new properties of the universe are explored with the Gforce?
Answer Page 44
The properties of reciprocal mass. The inertial mass of the Aether exist reciprocal to the dimension of mass we familiarly apply to visible matter. Reciprocal mass is a relatively unexplored concept in physics and has different properties from familiar mass, just as frequency has different properties from time. In addition to being a more primary order of reality, the nonmaterial nature of the Gforce likely relates to the Aether's reciprocal inertial mass.

3. What is the Gforce derived from?
Answer Page 45
The Gforce constant can be extracted from both Isaac Newton's constant of universal gravitation and the coulomb constant of electrostatic attraction-repulsion. It is also derived from the newly defined Aether unit constant also known as a rotating magnetic field unit of measurement or the Aether electromagnetic constant. The three manifestations of Gforce directly relate to the three force carriers, electrostatic charge, electromagnetic charge, and the mass within primary angular momentum. The coulomb electrostatic constant is the interaction constant of the Gforce with electrostatic charge. The unit of rotating magnetic field is the interaction constant of Gforce with the electromagnetic charge. And the Newton gravitational constant is the interaction constant of the Gforce with mass.


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Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby junglelord » Mon May 26, 2008 1:50 pm

I think the above quote while a little large is important for this thread. Since APM has a three force model and charge is two of them, and since there appears to be confusion on what a quantum constant is I hope it allows some to take the time to see that APM is not a crock. Also a minor typo above, in the answer to question one of chapter three, on the Gforce.
Physical strong charges the result a primary angular momentum spinning with in the Aether unit.

It should read
Physical strong charge is the result of primary angular momentum spinning with in the Aether unit.
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Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby Solar » Mon May 26, 2008 2:16 pm

junglelord wrote:APM quotes I made into questions.

32. What new constants and quantum units appear in APM?
Answer page 25
Conductance of the aether, which is essential for calculating and understanding the nature of strong charge.


To me, that, is what we perceive of as "charge". However, it seems it's only related to from the orthogonal relationship of it's transverse manifestation as 'electricity'. It seems as if little to no recognition is given to the 'potential' of "charge" as it exist in it's undisturbed 'volumetrically distributed crystal lattice-like' structure. Which is to say "aether".
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby StevenO » Mon May 26, 2008 2:26 pm

RobertFritzius wrote:Here's a link to my version of what charge is.

In essence, protons and electrons are in the business of absorbing and emitting momentum carrying particles (called positrinos and negatrinos) which, when they collide with other protons and electrons, produce electrical forces.

The model has an explanation for "so called" electrical attraction (Repulsion is easy) and gravity is thrown in as a very understandable "freeby" which gets re-invented about every 20 years, i.e. push gravity or shielding gravity. (I wasn't, by any means, the first to come up with the explanation.) So-called strong and weak interactions are handled in appended articles.

Emission-Absorption-Scattering Sub-quantum Physics
http://www.datasync.com/~rsf1/eas.htm

Bob Fritzius

Hi Bob,

Did'nt have time to read your model yet (I promised Dean to read about APM first) but it would make a lot of sense to me. Just like vibrating atoms exchange momentum (=2 dimensional) energy through emission of light or through a photon if the amount of energy is quantized, so would subatomic 'particles' exchange momentum in a similar mechanism. The energy levels will be higher and the equivalent photon inside the nucleus would probably be the gluon. Beween electrons and protons a similar mechanism must be at work (described here: http://www.blazelabs.com/f-u-const.asp , below "Fine Structure Constant Enigma")

Did you also check out the 'stacked tetrahedron' model of the nucleus?
http://www.blazelabs.com/f-p-magic.asp
http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/nucl-th/0309035
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby junglelord » Mon May 26, 2008 2:40 pm

Solar wrote:
junglelord wrote:APM quotes I made into questions.

32. What new constants and quantum units appear in APM?
Answer page 25
Conductance of the aether, which is essential for calculating and understanding the nature of strong charge.


To me, that, is what we perceive of as "charge". However, it seems it's only related to from the orthogonal relationship of it's transverse manifestation as 'electricity'. It seems as if little to no recognition is given to the 'potential' of "charge" as it exist in it's undisturbed 'volumetrically distributed crystal lattice-like' structure. Which is to say "aether".




page 163, SOTA, Third edition.
In the Aether Physics Model the aether conductance constant is shown to be a factor of coulombs constant. In quantum measurements the conductance constant notate as
Cd = e emax^2 / m(e) x Lq^2 x Fq^2
e emax^2 is the quantum constant of EM for the electron
m(e) is the quantum constant of electron mass
Lq is the quantum constant for length, compton wavelength
Fq is the quantum constant which is c/Lq

Conductance of the Aether is also equal to
Cd = e emax^2 / h

The variable h is Planck's constant and represents the angular momentum of the electron. Aether conductance is also equal to other expressions of strong charge to primary angular momentum.
Cd = e pmax^2 / h(p)
Cd = e(a)^2 / h(a)

Where h(p) and h(a) are the angular momentum of the proton and the Aether, and e emax^2 and e(a)^2 are the strong charge of the proton and the Aether. This is just one of many demonstrations of the exact mass to strong charge ratio, which is consistent throughout the universe. Where ever strong charge appears , it is always exactly proportional to the mass within the angular momentum that produces it and therefore it is quantum.

The Standard Model of particle physics does not recognize conductance is an essential constant. This might prompt one to ask, why bother? As shown in the Aether physics model, the conductance constant is essential for understanding the strong charge of the onta. The understanding of the strong charge in turn reveals the relationship of the strong nuclear force, Van der Waal's force, casimir force, plasma, and other phenomenon. An essential use of the conductance constants appears in the strong charge equation
e emax^2 = h x Cd

The same form of equation holds for any onn with angular momentum. The angular momentum of the proton in the Aether Physics Model is similar to the angular momentum of the electron, with the exception that it calculates with the mass of the proton.
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Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby StevenO » Mon May 26, 2008 3:58 pm

hermit_of_chad wrote:"Mathematical proof that the electron is a spherical electromagnetic standing wave" or circular reasoning ?

Wikipedia indicates that the electron radius is a derived quantity, defined as (1/4.pi.e0) . (q^2 / m.c^2) where q = charge of an electron.
"In simple terms, the classical electron radius is roughly the size the electron would need to have for its mass to be completely due to its electrostatic potential energy"
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_electron_radius.

Therefore it's not surprising that the electron mass can be derived from the values for radius and charge!

It basically shows Einsteins formula. The electron can either be represented as a spherical standing wave of charge or a constant charge density sphere, both with identical radius.

However, the wave representation can explain a lot more phenomena than the 'billiard ball' model...
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby StevenO » Mon May 26, 2008 4:14 pm

volantis wrote:It is because all objects possess the property of charge that we can explain the Universe from an electrical perspective.

Dave

I think space itself consists of charge. This would also show the way how to get rid of the philosophical distinctions between particles/fields/forces and aether. Those are all wave phenomena in charge. Matching an independent time dimension to each space dimension would get rid of the particle/wave, particle/field dualities, special relativity and most fancy math.
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