The Boring Sun

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:37 pm

European rocket scientists pledge to make first private Moon landing in 2018
Image
The first private Moon landing could be made by a group of European scientists next year.
A group of rocket engineers called PTScientists (Part-time Scientists), has built a landing module and two rovers, which are expected to launch in 2018 on board Elon Musk’s SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017 ... n-landing/

Sounds like they are serious, I wish them the best of luck.
The team worked with Audi to built the solar powered rovers which will trundle across the lunar surface at around 2.2 mph (3.6kmph) and have stereo cameras capable of taking 3D images, as well as a third camera to record video and capture panoramic images.


Solar powered rovers. There might be their first error. There is not enough 'oomph" in the light if they are using conventional solar panels, it is mostly a fluorescent light. If they know the spectra of the lunar light, they might have been able to 'tune' the collectors to get the most out of the light that is available.

The Alina spacecraft will also be carrying scientific experiments from researchers in the US. Canada and Sweden.


Seismometer? That could determine if the observed new craters are from impact or electric forces. The cameras should have exposure data available, be nice to know the real light levels at differing Sun angles. Solar filters for the cameras? A small telescope for some serious astrophotography? A pyrheliometer to measure the Suns direct heat?
I noticed on a couple of TV shows that they are using video cameras with very low light level capability, they can get by with ambient light indoors, and a couple of times I have seen twinkling stars in a night time outdoor scene. Would the same camera capture those stars from the Lunar surface? And what about zoom? Imagine having a camera on the surface observing Earth all the time, with something like Nikon's Coolpix 83x zoom camera. I think lots of people would look at such a camera feed, make a nice background image on my computer. Really hope they nail the landing.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2581
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby perpetual motion » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:17 pm

All of these so called experiments are still accomplished inside of the Earths atmosphere.

Again, where is this so called light that is supposed to be everywhere in space, if the sun actually emits
these beams. Or this heat that it is emitting. Now if these photos of comets are legit, why then isn't
there light in all of space? Not happening, never will be. I know, I know, this is high school stuff.

This so called main stream is trying it's heart out to create this so called light in space, that it will use
all of it's monies to trick the public. So to actually debug the human brain from this "washing" so to
speak, do a lot more hiking and fishing or whatever outdoor stuff you want and think logically
about what you have read and seen in your lives (by the way I'am retired now, so go for it) we will never
beat them, as they are miles ahead of us.
perpetual motion
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:04 pm

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:27 pm

perpetual motion
All of these so called experiments are still accomplished inside of the Earths atmosphere.


Yes, but we are told that the view from the ISS is all we need to know to see that the photosphere is white when viewed from space. They may be in space, but the line of sight to the Sun is passing through Earths atmosphere, and Don Pettit confirms this in a video I will link to as I expand on these explanations.
Image
It is a common misconception that the Sun is yellow, or orange or even red. However, the Sun is essentially all colors mixed together, which appear to our eyes as white. Seen from space, this is clear:

http://solar-center.stanford.edu/SID/ac ... enSun.html
The Sun looks white through a camera with no filter. NASA always uses the wide angle lens with photos of the Sun, which makes it appear further above the horizon. By eye, from the ISS Cupola the Earths surface appears flat, no curvature detectable. When the astronauts who serviced Hubble were at a greater altitude, they said they could detect curvature.
I have taken unfiltered images with my old Nikon, and the Sun appears white, but it is overexposed when on full auto and using area focus mode, so of course it looks white, the pixels are saturated.

what colour is the Sun?
Our Sun appears to be yellow, but actually it is white. There are also stars of many other colours. What causes the different colours? It's all down to the temperature of the surface of the star.

http://www.suntrek.org/sun-as-a-star/su ... -sun.shtml
According to the diagram on that page then, our Sun is between yellow and white, not white. I will attempt to show that the colours they are seeing have nothing to do with the temperature of the surface of a blackbody or near-blackbody radiator, as true stars are not BBRs.

I am collecting links to as much info as I can find on this subject, one of the main ones being to Don Pettits photos of the Mercury transit of the Sun, and looking at the filters he used and the results obtained.
This pdf file is a good introduction to the light phenomena I will be looking into later in my alternative explanation of what the space based instruments are really 'seeing', and for the most part it isn't anything our eyes could detect.
ABSORPTION, EMISSION, REFLECTION, AND SCATTERING
http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/library/course ... ss_ref.pdf
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2581
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby perpetual motion » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:06 pm

Well I'll be, I must have been sleeping for the last 100 years. Since when did this happen? GAS in outer space!
Who would have thunk of that one.

Now they MAY be getting somewhere, but I still will not except thrust in space from rocket engines unless
they verify this presence of GAS in outer space.

This article was written on the disappearance of planet Mars Atmosphere.
sc.edu

"The solar wind is a thin stream of Electrically Conducting Gas constantly blowing from the surface of the sun."
perpetual motion
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:04 pm

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:56 am

fosborn_ wrote:Some post on Apollo accounts, sense I mentioned them:

fosborn_ wrote:
GaryN Wrote; NASA has never allowed a few minutes for the astronauts to take a look, during the night portion of their orbit, and report what they can see.


This thread is so long, a little review helps give some context on misinformation. IMO
http://hugequestions.com/Eric/Astronaut ... -trip.html
Mike Melvill, SpaceShipOne "Seeing the bright blue sky turning pitch black and seeing stars appear while it is daytime is absolutely mind-blowing."5


http://interviewly.com/i/chris-hadfield-dec-2012-reddit
Have you ever gone into the shadow of the ISS or another space ship while on a space walk? If so what was it like? Is it total darkness? Edit: Thanks for the response! And good luck up there! I'll watch you every night you pass over Chicago!

When in space, if you look away from the Sun, it is total darkness. It's because there is no air to reflect and refract the light around you.

You can even take a picture looking at the Sun. The bright Sun will be blown out in the image, but space around it will be black.
The only light becomes the glow of the Earth and starlight. Very cool.


Reddit;
Do the pictures of space do any justice to the real thing?
[–]BuzzAldrinHere[S]
Yes, they do. They recall (for me) the actual experience of myself in space- not by words, not by print, but visual reminders, it brings back a very in-depth appreciation


viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4579&p=104244#p104167
As we moved away from the earth,
about halfway between the earth and the moon
or a little bit less, it was very easy to see
constellations or stars in the dark areas of
the sky
.


transcripts document of Apollo 10 about half way to the moon.
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/53134295
SC Oh, okay. I Just wanted to give
you a star visibility data point. Just a second ago, when
the sun was in the right side window, number 5 window, I
can see on the Southern Cross, Aerux and alpha beta Centauri
out my left window and charts the first time we've been able
to see it.

CAPCOH Rog, good show.
SC And we couldn't - John couldn't
see many other stars, Just the real big ones, you know, like
alpha beta Centauri and Acrux. Now as the sun moves on
around, they've disappeared, but thatts the first glimpse
of any stars I've gotten.

CAPGOM Roger, we
but the distance at that tlme was approximately
108,600 nautical miles.
Gene Cernan reported the
moon looks bigger from that distance.
SC Hello, Houston,
that distance.
SC Hello, Houston, !O.
CAPCOM Co ahead, iO.
SC Okay, I can see the stars real good
out the side wlndow_ I've got Sirius out my side window, but
even out through the rendezvous window i can look up there and
I've got Orion and Rigel there.
CAPCOM Rog. Boy, old Snoop really, when
the sun ts on the side, he must really block it all out.
SC Yes. and I've got the moon right up

above the x-axis. It's a beautiful sight.
_APCOM Rog. We envy you.


http://nolapost.com/2012/11/charlie-duke-visits-harvey/
“It’s a real contrast between the lunar surface and the blackness of space,” Duke said. “The sun is so bright. You don’t see any stars. There is no atmosphere. You just see this clear horizon, and space is just inky black to me. You feel like you can reach out and touch it. It’s really beautiful.”
http://nolapost.com/2012/11/charlie-duke-visits-harvey/
Charles Duke (Apollo 16)"You couldn't see stars, it was too bright" [in cis lunar space]. Speaking to me at Autographica in 2012, and reiterated at various public speaking engagements such as this event with Charles Duke.


GaryN wrote; What does NASA have to say about the subject? Not much, just one comment from one of their lackeys.

He probably read the same stuff we have, about what they saw and when they didn't see it, there were the obvious explanations.
Luckily, the human eye handles the different light levels much better than a camera does.

Dr. Eric Christian
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
fosborn_
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:02 pm

GaryN wrote..  They may be in space, but the line of sight to the Sun is passing through Earths atmosphere,   

This is an Gimini pic of a you tube video I have used before but good to be remined there is an,Asmith shot..
 
https://youtu.be/7K5DiKsZhTk?t=77
Attachments
Genini4EVA_SunZenith3.gif
Genini4EVA_SunZenith3.gif (41.57 KiB) Viewed 2361 times
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
fosborn_
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby Roshi » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:38 pm

Noob question: Could solar flares be some kind of "sparks"? Between the Sun and - what's at the other end?

From wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_flare
A solar flare is a sudden flash of brightness observed near the Sun's surface

Great, now we know what solar flares are, isn't science amazing.
Roshi
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:35 am

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:12 am

Hi Frank, well you don't give up easy do you? Neither do I though, we both stand by our convictions, which is all we can do without empirical science experiments. Yes, you have quotes that suggest things are visible from space, I have quotes from past and present astronauts who say it is totally black out there, so we need those experiments, though I think NASA is quite happy to let the ambiguity stand. Anyway, I'll carry on trying to figure things out from what few experiments have actually been performed, though in typical NASA style, there are still some irregularities in what little info is forthcoming.

Here is the video of Don Pettit preparing to photograph the transit of Venus across the face of the Sun. He had the foresight to bring his own camera filter, as for some reason NASA does not normally carry them on the ISS.
At roughly these times, he makes some comments that are rather misleading:
0:40 can see earth and solar system
The only time the other planets of the Solar system are visible is when they are passing through the band of Earths upper atmosphere, as there is no view from the Cupola of anything except Earth and the upper atmosphere.
4:20 atmospheric effects of earth and venus
This experiment has not been performed before, so he wonders about the effects of Earths atmosphere and the atmosphere of Venus. He is confirming that there is atmosphere in his line of sight to the Sun
6:07 full aperture solar filter
Yes, we can see that it is a full aperture filter, and appears to be a film type filter, possibly Mylar, but he does not say exactly which filter it is, and I can find no details. It is referred to in some articles as being a "neutral colour solar filter", but does he mean a neutral density filter? Probably not, as NASA seems to be very wary of using ND filters, even though I was advised by military R&D boffins that the ND filter would be the only way to see the Suns true colour from space.
7:30 observation of earth and near earth vicinity
Confirming that they can not see deep space.

ISS Astronaut Don Pettit & the Transit of Venus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52-yvMu8vz0
Here are the images from the ISS:
Image
These series of images were taken by the Expedition 31 crew onboard the International Space Station during the Transit of Venus event. The images in blue used a 1200mm lens with a neutral color solar filter on the Nikon D2x, while the orange images used an 800mm lens with a 762nm narrow band pass filter on the Nikon D2x. This transit was the first that was captured from space, as previous crew members did not have solar filters onboard to capture imagery during the last transit in 2004. (NASA)

Viewing the Transit of Venus From Space
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stat ... space.html

There were 2 filters used then, one being a 762nm narrow band. But 762nm is in the IR, and not visible by eye. How did he photograph it then? The camera was one of the modified ones that has extended IR capabilities, and it would show as red/orange on the LCD camera display. Why 762nm? That emission line is from O2 in the upper atmosphere, and is not sunlight filtered by the atmosphere, but generated by the O2 in the line of sight, by UV/EUV solar energy.
The blue images would seem to confirm a Mylar filter, but Mylar is not a "neutral colour" filter. On the NASA Flickr page though, they show another "test image" that is not from either of the filters.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa_jsc_ ... 649730820/
UT154 solar test CO 934_0253

No further info is available, and the image has no ISS roll number, but the CO bit would seem to indicate it is not from the Cupola, and the IR images must have been taken from a location where there was an extended viewing opportunity, as from the images from the Cupola, Venus is not seen at the mid point of the transit. The whole transit was not visible from the Cupola, and the images and time stamps and Celestia simulation confirm this. This leads me to believe that the Sun is not visible by eye when looking away from Earth at the ISS altitude, but only in IR. Lets have some real science NASA, documented and verifiable.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2581
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby comingfrom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:43 pm

I believe you are onto something, Gary.

Just not sure what that something is yet.

Two things stood out as I read your post.
1. NASA doesn't carry solar filters on the ISS... the astronaut had to bring his own?????
2. Using a neutral color solar filter shows the Sun is blue????

What the...!?
User avatar
comingfrom
 
Posts: 760
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:11 pm
Location: NSW, Australia

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:47 pm

Postby GaryN » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:12 am
Yes, you have quotes that suggest things are visible from space, I have quotes from past and present astronauts who say it is totally black out there


You err.
The word "Suggest", is a blatant falsehood in light of what I posted. Those are transcripts of trained observers. Statements of observed facts. not the fictions you propagate.
The majority of your quotes are a twisting and out of context, therefor false statements.IMO

As the transcripts explicitly demonstrate. and many people have reminded you, the brightness of the sun makes it vary difficult to see the stars in space. But even on the moon stars could be seen through the 1X navigation telescope on the Lunar Lander, on the lunar surface (after each landing, its a standard procedure) and even in Cis Lunar space, even by Neil Armstrong. the telescope provided enough blocking on the lunar surface from the glare of the sun and bounce off the glass in the lunar soil to see stars.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
fosborn_
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:28 pm

GIANT 'ELVE' APPEARS OVER EUROPE:
"It appeared for just a split second alongside the constellation Orion" says Popek.
Image
Elves, Red Sprites And Orion
http://spaceweathergallery.com/indiv_up ... _id=134620
Interesting too that the video camera captured some stars. Being so sensitive, would it show the stars when in space, looking away from Earth, or from the Lunar surface? We'll likely never know, NASA will not allow the experiments.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2581
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:48 am

Comet Pan-STARRS a few days ago:
Image
Today the comet was seen to brighten significantly:
The comet's outburst is probably caused by a fresh vein of icy material in the comet's nucleus exposing itself to solar radiation. Furiously vaporizing, the comet's core is spewing jets of dust and gas into space--a tail-building process that should intensify as the comet approaches the sun between now and early May.

Large image.
http://0e33611cb8e6da737d5c-e13b5a910e1 ... 583005.jpg

That there is no heat from the Sun to melt the vein of icy material does not bother them. That the comet is only visible from Earth does not bother them either. If a probe goes to one of these bright comets, then on arrival the comet should be bathed in this green light, but they are not, they are all very dark, though some visible light is detectable locally by the specialised, extremely sensitive instruments. No conventional cameras are sent to these comets as they would see nothing, and there is no way that this feeble visible light would reach Earth. So what makes the comet visible from Earth? Our atmosphere responding to the X-ray, EUV and UV emissions of the coma and tail.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2581
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:09 am

mike-massimino:
The moment I saw the Earth it spiked to 120. Eventually it settled back down to a normal exercise rate of around 75, but for that moment it was racing. Hubble is 350 miles above Earth; we need the telescope as far away from the planet as possible in order to have a longer orbit, see more of the sky, and be farther away from the atmospheric effects of Earth.

After seeing the Earth, I looked down the payload bay at the telescope, and the thing I noticed was the light from the sun. The sun on Earth is filtered through the atmosphere; it can appear bright yellow or as that golden hue you get at sunset. In space, sunlight is nothing like sunlight as you know it. It's pure whiteness. It's perfect white light. It's the whitest white you've ever seen. I felt like I had Superman vision.

http://www.space.com/34286-excerpt-mike ... ceman.html
Gemini video again, seems appropriate. .
Genini4EVA_SunZenith3.gif
Genini4EVA_SunZenith3.gif (41.57 KiB) Viewed 2202 times
https://youtu.be/7K5DiKsZhTk?t=77
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
fosborn_
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:13 am

http://www.wanderlust.co.uk/magazine/ar ... -interview

mike massimino: What’s beautiful about the darkness in space is that the stars look like perfect points of light. They don’t twinkle at night in space, because you’re above the atmosphere, so you can see these perfect points of light, gas clouds, the Milky Way, constellations.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
fosborn_
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 10:20 am
Location: Kansas

Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:40 am

mike massimino:

You will like the first few minutes if this video.
The Black Void
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfizPfCO7sY
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2581
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

PreviousNext

Return to New Insights and Mad Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests