The Boring Sun

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby flippinrocks » Wed May 18, 2011 7:15 am

I only posted this Edgar Mitchell interview for the first two minute statement from a 1st hand observer of the heavens from space.

please disregard the context if et's are your boogie man, thats not why I linked this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV1FAqB1N9A
wow, look how bright that star is!
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Wed May 18, 2011 12:01 pm

I said:
Is this the true color of the surface, or does Earthshine have a big impact on what we see?


Frank said:
Sorry, I'm not sure what your asking. Sounds like your an apple and I'm an orange.


On BAUT, there is a thread about being able to read a newspaper by moonlight. The majority
say they can. So if you are on the Moon, could you read a newspaper by Earthshine?
The Earth has almost 4 times the brightness, it is a much bigger object, and there is
no atmosphere on the Moon to diminish the Earthshine.
I attribute the changing color of the Lunar surface, as per Apollo photos, to the
Earthshine changing as the ocean, the deserts, the forests reflect different
colors, which mix with the Lunar surface color/s.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Wed May 18, 2011 12:31 pm

I attribute the changing color of the Lunar surface, as per Apollo photos, to the
Earthshine changing as the ocean, the deserts, the forests reflect different
colors, which mix with the Lunar surface color/s.


Is it like those aluminum Christmas trees with rotating color filter in front of a spot light?

You got any kind of measurement coordinated to the earth's lighting conditions and the moon's reflected color measurements?
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Wed May 18, 2011 4:59 pm

flippinrocks wrote:I only posted this Edgar Mitchell interview for the first two minute statement from a 1st hand observer of the heavens from space.

please disregard the context if et's are your boogie man, thats not why I linked this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV1FAqB1N9A


That was cool. I had ordered " In the Shadow of the Moon" directed by Ron Howard. Awesome Movie!!!
But there is a clip of him saying the samething.
Here is some more of the Apollo Flight recording transcript, that is in context of your post;
077:42:44 Stafford: Hey, I've been - going off and flying the spacecraft, I've just turned around and looked out, and it - stars - You can see it's a bright horizon, but it looks like it might be the Milky Way, but the sky is definitely light, and it goes down and clips off. You cannot make some of the rough terrain features out about it. It might be that we could be right close to the Milky Way out there, but it looks like about the same intensity of the Milky Way as you see it at night around the Earth. It does get lighter over in one section, and we'll give you a comment on that later.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Fri May 20, 2011 9:43 pm

Lots of images for sunrise from the ISS or shuttle, but no images of a well defined
Sun, with spots, through a solar filter. Seems like they need the atmosphere to


maybe not always.






Reason for edit; add links.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Fri May 20, 2011 10:02 pm

With photos of the Sun it seems they are always close to the surface, if it
is on the Moon, or from space looking at the earth. Just found this pdf
about the electron density of the lunar surface, haven't had a good look at it
yet though. I'll not give up on my pet theory easily, Frank! :D
http://plasma.colorado.edu/phys7810/art ... GR_1973.pd
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Fri May 20, 2011 10:27 pm

GaryN wrote:With photos of the Sun it seems they are always close to the surface, if it
is on the Moon, or from space looking at the earth. Just found this pdf
about the electron density of the lunar surface, haven't had a good look at it
yet though. I'll not give up on my pet theory easily, Frank! :D
http://plasma.colorado.edu/phys7810/art ... GR_1973.pd


Seems like they need the atmosphere


At this point, I would be disappointed if you did. :o
( Now that I see how much you like cat and mouse) :)

Thanks for the link. To late for me though. In the morning.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Sat May 21, 2011 4:44 am

What effect would this have on a picture of the sun on the lunar surface?
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Sat May 21, 2011 11:59 am

What effect would this have on a picture of the sun on the lunar surface?


It is looking to me as if the depth and the density of the electron column between
observer and observed is what will determine the visibility of both the stars and
the Sun. We now know that the ionosphere can change very quickly in response to Solar
x-ray activity, so I'm thinking it possible that when some astronauts say they can
see stars from orbit, or from the lunar surface, and some say they can not, that
they are both correct! It will depend on the prevailing ionospheric conditions, and
also the geometric relationship of the viewer or camera to the target.
The Sun always looks strange in the Lunar, and orbital images, and I can imagine
(not necessarily understand!) how the Suns radiation would play havoc with the optics
of the camera, and the film (or CCD)too. I just wonder if they had a solar filter, would
we see the familiar disk of the Sun, and any sunspots present?
I'll make the prediction, based on what I have seen and read, that looking straight out,
i.e. perpendicular to a planets surface, either from the Lunar surface, or from
Earths orbit, that you will not see stars, or even the Sun when it is overhead.
I am just looking into the Martian ionosphere, it has some distinct layers, and
they have even found that there is a well defined bubble surrounding the whole
thing, so wondering about the refractive index of those plasmas and the boundary
layers, and how that would affect the apparent size and position of celestial
objects viewed from the surface.
In a previous thread, Lloyd posted:
Are Stars Magnified?
And quoting from a book he had read:
Without the earth's atmospherean lens, man could not even see the moon, nor stars; and the sun itself would seem like a pale red star.

http://oahspestandardedition.com/OSE_38c.html
(That is an interesting link Lloyd, missed it somehow, but will tale a good look at it soon)
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Sat May 21, 2011 5:13 pm

is looking to me as if the depth and the density of the electron column between
observer and observed is what will determine the visibility of both the stars and
the Sun.


How does this vary opaqueness to light ?
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
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is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Sun May 22, 2011 11:18 am

Hi Frank, it's not to do with opaqueness to light. It is about
plane waves scattering angles. These diagrams might make it
clearer to you.
Image
So we have to look at the dielectric boundary layers in the
ionosphere, and what happens with the incident plane waves at
x-ray energies.
Image
http://www.mx.iucr.org/iucr-top/comm/ct ... node5.html
Or am I just full of it??
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Sun May 22, 2011 12:53 pm

Are you just wanting to show constructive interference in a plane wave?
So the same wave length in and same wave length out. Just a change in angle? :?

When a wavefront of X-rays strikes an atom, the electrons in that atom interact with the X-rays and immediately re-emit the X-radiation, normally without change of wavelength,


Can you connect a few more dots please.

Thanks
Frank
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby GaryN » Mon May 23, 2011 11:57 am

Can you connect a few more dots please.


'Fraid not, Frank. I'm just wallowing around in waters where I don't even belong, struggling to keep my head
above water!
Image
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Mon May 23, 2011 1:18 pm

Fraid not, Frank. I'm just wallowing around in waters where I don't even belong, struggling to keep my head
above water!i


No problem for me being sympathetic there.
But is that the same situation for EUV and the idea of star light brightening in our atmosphere?
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
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Re: The Boring Sun

Unread postby fosborn_ » Tue May 24, 2011 4:33 am

GaryN wrote:
Fraid not, Frank. I'm just wallowing around in waters where I don't even belong, struggling to keep my head
above water!i


fosborn_ wrote:No problem for me being sympathetic there.
But is that the same situation for EUV and the idea of star light brightening in our atmosphere?


So does this mean you have no idea of the physics, of why you think star light might brighten in our atmosphere, more than what we would see in space?

Reason for edit: misspelled word.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov
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